El-P

When did I say big matches did not exist before PPV ? As far as big matches on house shows, sorry, but I'm pretty sure none of them are what was referred to as "matches that *everybody* can cite off the cuff", which is what I'm talking about. Mania 1 not being a PPV is cute as hell in term of ridiculous nitpicking. Is that even debatable that John Cena and Roman Reigns (by everyone I meant every top guy, which is why I detailed it into Cena and Reigns in the *very next sentence*, but I guess my fault for not being specific enough from the very first sentence), to take two guys who have occupied pretty much the same social spot as Hogan in the WWE (long tenure on top as super dominant figures, Austin and Rock were a bit different in term of booking), have way, WAY more big matches that have been presented to the audience on TV and PPV than Hogan had during his peak (that's discounting most of his WCW stuff, as again I don't think any of them apart from a few exceptions were the ones being referred too, Hogan vs Rock being another exception in term of belonging in a later context when things already got different, that's also after Hogan's peak) ? I mean, come on now. There have been competitive main events on weekly TV for almost 25 years now + 12 PPV a year. Hogan had a token of big PPV matches and a few Saturday Nights Main Event (more or less, because Mania 1 wasn't a PPV, although I doubt anyone would push the Mania main event as a great Hogan match anyway). The business model was different then and it absolutely plays a part in how matches were perceived. It's ridiculous to even argue against the fact a fan who's seen about , say 15 big Hogan matches during his teenage years won't remind them better than someone who has seen, I dunno, a hundred John Cena matches during the same time span. It is, and I did not even talk about their supposed quality or lack thereof, as it wasn't even a point I was making. What a waste of time, really, to have to explain that Hogan had less big matches than Cena or Reigns, which obviously plays a part in how they are remembered, especially by people who have seen it when their brain was younger. Oh well... Anyway, this is totally off-topic and probably should be moved to the Hogan thread. Isn't Hogan cancelled anyway at this point ?

I think this whole ROH thingy is a totally an elaborate joke on Brian Cage. The guy thought he was actually gonna get featured after all. I dunno. I'm already half-way burned out. Don't need more weekly TV in my regime honestly. If that happened, TK would HAVE TO delegate, big time.

Yep, the Turning Point TV special (as this was not a PPV anymore, just an IMPACT show billed as a special edition). BTW, gotta say how ridiculous it is when TNA is actually doing a better job than WWE is term of following-up the copycat Summer of Punk angle with AJ Styles, as after he won the title and quit, they show stuff on TV paid by "Friends of AJ" from him defending the title in the UK, in AAA and in AJPW. Of course AJ would leave anyway, but those vignettes is already much better than anything WWE did with Punk. Also, Samuel Shaw as a creepy stalker was actually pretty good. Because it was creepy. And Christy Hemme back then was just so ridiculously *RESPECTFULLY*. Fuck me. Rockstar Spud. Yeah, ya can feel this is an entire new TNA that's unveiling before your eyes... Gotta say, at least it's not boring like Brucie's was. I take cringe over boring any day.

Random appearances on TNA : Peter Avalon as a scrawny jabronie killed by ECIII. I did not even recognize him before a backstage segment ! Crazy. Candice LaRae doing a job for Gail Kim, in the same show as the aforementioned Avalon segment.

Well, your first point, well, we can agree to disagree that he was a great worker, ok ? "Reality" has nothing to do with this. Your second point, well, are you gonna argue that there was not a dozen PPV main events and a shitload of important TV matches back then ? There were 4 PPV from 1988 and on. Sure, there was those Saturday Nights Main Events shows dating back from 85, but I doubt most of Hogan's most remembered and top matches (those the "vast majority of people can cite off the cuff") happened during those TV shows, which still were mostly TV commercials for house shows. Are we gonna argue that Hulk Hogan has had as much "big matches" as pretty much everyone past the Raw/Nitro era ? Really want to compare the numbers of "big matches" Hogan had compared to a John Cena or a Roman Reigns ? Talking about letting reality in the way really is a pretty bad argument here, if I may say so... The reasons why people remember Hogan's matches so much is the one I mentioned before, and the other one is that most people still talking about it were kids/teenagers when it happened, therefore they remember much more vividly whatever happened during this period that anything past their 20's. Fuck I remember Mike Sharpe vs SD Jones matches from WWF Superstars from 90, and it's not because they were any good. That's not something to be ignored, although of course everyone want to ignore it because it plays into "their favors", as in the favors of their own experience. I know for a fact that the French WWE audience that exists today considers 00's WWE as the golden age, and probably remembers WAY more about it than the average current US WWE fan, all because of the context (this is when WWE got hot on TV, mostly thanks to the announcing team of Agius and Chereau). And they probably can quote shitloads of Cena, Orton and Edge matches too by heart. But if the social spots of the workers, context of productions of matches, conditions of receptions and perceptions are to be ignored, well, whatever. Pro-wrestling doesn't happen in a vacuum and not everything is equivalent. To me those elements being ignored is what clouds the judgement, always in favors of mostly dominant figures. And don't get me started on "charisma", which is such a tricky concept to begin with. But anyway, this discussion has nothing to do with poor Matt Sydal. Nor with Hogan as a worker either actually (like I said, pretty good). So I guess sorry for going off-topic. If anyone wanna pimp some Matt Sydal, please do. I doubt he has a shot at my list, but then again.

I don't get why they booked Baker vs Storm as the semi final, as it had finals written all over it and much bigger than Britt vs Soho which has happened already. Soho isn't that hot recently and she isn't that good either. Storm is the one to push as the babyface star, she's young but already way experienced and easily one of the best worker in the division. So either Storm beats Baker as Jaimie Hayter fucks it up for the dentist and we finally get that Baker vs Hayter match that was teased months ago (again, continuity anyone ?), either Britt wins thanks to Hayter fucking things up for Storm as I can't get enough of these two hooking up. And then later we can build to Baker vs Storm. Well, I guess it's not that bad if they do either of the two, really. BTW, whatever happened to Penelope Ford ? She injured of what ? She had that awesome hardcore match with the Bunny and seemingly vanished. And where is Leila Hirsch ? Show should be excellent (doh) and yeah, the world really sucks.

Well, that is a fact, Billy Kidman' SSP *always* looked totally out of control and haphazard.

In truth, the vast majority of people can cite his top matches because he was the top star of the top promotion during a time where there was about 4 big matches a year. Whatever one might think of Hogan as a worker (I think he's on average pretty good, sometimes worst, sometime better), let's not confuse his abilities and the quality of his in-ring work with his excessively dominant social spot on the pro-wrestling landscape in a specific context where "good wrestling" as it was *already* understood back then (Savage, Steamboat, Santana, the workrate guys of the days) meant jackshit compared to 30 years later in term of acquiring such a dominant spot (right now, even in WWE, there's an expected level of what is perceived as "very good in-ring worker" to main event Mania, I'm not the biggest Roman Reigns fan but let's be real, he's miles above Hogan as a worker, so was John Cena).

Because people who are only good at making money are usually sociopathic abusive parasites with no actual understanding of the world. Malenko doesn't look great either in this anecdote.

THIS. A thousand times. I could elaborate endlessly on this point, but really that sums it up in a very amusing (to me) and on the spot way.

Omega leaving was a rather big hit. It's also one reason why Meij was cut, because he was seen as the guy was let Omega leave. When you add the fact he didn't understand what AEW could be and was all about maintaining his relationship with ROH (and CMLL !)... Yikes. A lil wee bit of lack of vision there... I also remember people when AEW was formed going like "Omega meant nothing for NJPW, there's no proof he was a draw for them, they do just as good since he left." But anyway. Just blame Dick Togo. He's the one behind the EVIL push.

Terry Funk would be so proud. In a way.

Miz is not capable of much, and what he's capable of doesn't look very good anyway. It would be interesting (somewhat) to see if his so called "promo ability" would translate outside of WWE, when you're not fed awful WWE verbiage. Maybe he could ad-lib and talk well. Maybe he would come off totally empty and fake (which he already does in WWE btw, but it suits his character there I guess).

The one BIG mistake as far as this PPV goes, is nothing for FTR. Like, really ? They are the most over they've even been, they come off that incredible match against the Briscoes followed by beating the Young Bucks on TV, and... nothing on the PPV ? That's quite a big booking flub, until they get a last minute match after this week, but the card seems full already and a three day "build" is not exactly what you'd want for your most over tag team in the company. Yep, that one I don't get at all, lack of focus really shows here. No team is the three-way is as over as FTR (maybe Keith Lee is ?). Jake Hager is on the PPV by sheer force of being attached to Jericho. Ditto 2.0 (who are fun and all, but....). Ruby Soho, who's pretty cold, is gonna be on the final of the Owen tournament. Fuck, can't they get FTR vs reDragons somewhere quickly ?

One reason (not the only one) the bow and arrow was completely botched is that Miz can't bend worth a shit. Many physical and athletic elements are taken for granted or simply ignored (I blame the "lol mOvEZ" people) but guess what, everything that can help matters. In the many things he can't do well, bending is one of them. He's stiff as hell there. It's also difficult to put it on bigger guys, and I do think Cody did flubbed it before anyway. That being said, what followed is pathetic, it's WWE Diva circa 2005 level of incompetence. The guy has been wrestling for 15 years and looks worse than 6 years old rookies here. Sure, he had some good matches with Daniel Bryan and Seth Rollins. Yeah, no shit he had. I could probably have a watchable match with them too. Sure, he's fun when he's interacting with his wife, but working with your super hot wife who also happens to have a great personality will do that to ya. As far as Cody goes, he had it easy thus far working with Seth, who's a workhorse no matter what some people may think. Working with the Miz is not exactly the same as Andrade, Sammy, Darby or big brother, uh ? BTW, saw a pic of Becky. She needs to do the Gangrel entrance now.

I FUCKING WISH !!!! Mia Yim seems elated to be over there. Her point : "It's nice to feel like I'm respected as a human." The sad truth is that Sasha Banks will probably come back eventually as damaged goods. But man, I'd LOVE to see her elsewhere.

Blame Dick Togo.

The same. Before Rumble 99, which killed the WWF fan in me, that Deadly Games PPV is the first one I recall being super disappointed in an entire card. And although at first, when the final swerve, bro, happened, I kinda felt it was brillant, but then I thought about how I did not enjoy the PPV at all, so... So, that's agreeing twice. Plus, I don't think you'd argue much if I said the Briscoes vs FTR is pretty much the most serious MOTYC thus far. That's agreeing a lot in 5 months. BTW, speaking of Russo booking tournaments, show n°2 of TNA in late 2013 when Russo officially got back on the payroll. Heel Dixie (who's hilariously bad) takes the title away from AJ Styles and has a great way to crown a new champ. I was like "she's gonna say a tournament". And she said "an 8 men tournament !". I died. Russo WAS BACK.

It's fascinating how quickly TNA is spiraling down in the fall of 2013 (and that's after two years of Brucie boring the fuck out of me). The heel turn of Dixie Carter is so ironic, as the idea that the Carters did not value AJ Styles was, well, pretty real, as he would refuse a bullshit contract a few months later and leave, all for the best for him. The two matches with Bully Ray (one at Bound for Glory with the infamous canvas removed spot, which Bully had done before, and the following TV show) will be his last real highlights in a company that he carried for so long until he was put on the back-burner once Dixie took control and then Brucie thought he had been there for too long to put him back on top and saw fit to shove colorless Bobby Roode down the throat of the audience (and then one year + of godawful Aces & Eight stuff). Maybe the most hilarious thing of all, especially with the hindsight of Jarrett's podcast telling the stories of Russo always being in the ear of Dixie and the Carters basically wanting control for her daughter to have a job, is that on the day Russo was "officially" back on the payroll (like, just a few weeks after Hogan was finally gone, what a waste of money this was) as a "consultant", heel Dixie Carter was not on one, not on two, not on three, but on FOUR segments of the show, opening and closing it. And that the only new character of note that was gonna be pushed, was a NXT reject (from the very first NXT that everybody has seemingly forgotten) named after... Dixie Carter. The fact *this* guy was the new hot shit was also telling, after years of actual WWE names, for better and often worse, showing up in the company. Standards and financials had definitely dropped (and so many people had been cut or left already). But yeah, Dixie oh Dixie. She's SO BAD it's actually pretty entertaining to watch. At least it's not Aces & Eights anymore, and so bad it's funny will always beat dull & boring bad.

Agreed. Both would be exception, although the KOTR93 was really only great when Bret Hart was in the ring. V*Top was awesome also because it was AJW at its 90's peak going to the Dome, and Hokuto having her moment of glory. Tournaments were also one go-to of Vince Russo. He LOVED to book tournaments, because it's a great crutch when you actually don't have any idea, plus you can book of bunch of swerves, bro.

Let's put this out there : straight tournaments in pro-wrestling are never very interesting, because the booking makes a lot of results obvious, without being satisfying because there's not more to them than what they are (since there's no other issue than "win the match", so I guess the only setting in which it can work is pure sports-like context like shoot-style, or something attached to a different gimmick, like Pure Style in ROH, which is akin to modern shoot-style of sorts). They never draw either. A well booked G1 style stuff can be awesome. Straight tournaments *never* deliver. One could have hoped the Owen would have been something different but oh well. I for one have enjoyed most of the matches, and Cole vs Joe as a final really appeals to me. On the other hand, as I said, Ruby Soho getting to the finals against Baker is meh. Unless they pull the upset and make it Toni Storm, which they *should*. Still, in that case Storm vs Riho would have been the banger to go toward.

This is actually the first match I truly identify the debut of Hashimoto's peak with. I thought the Sasaki match at the 94 Dome was even better, and the first true Hash ace performance. Enjoyed both matches a lot.

Miz is a guy who's great at spewing WWE verbiage in medias and looking good and clean doing it. He's only been watchable whenever his wife was at his side and after 15 years can't make anything better than "passable" inside the ring (those kicks, seriously, when it was a troll on Bryan it was at least somewhat acceptable, but for fuck's sake). There's nothing comparable with MJF, who's the best heel promo in pro-wrestling in the last 30 years, and a really good worker inside the ring too. I had to say it, because really now, The Miz is about every reason rolled into why as I can't stand what WWE stands for in term of presentation.

Funniest thing is that it was actually a botch. There was no black mist. It was pretty much a transparent mist that she sold. Maybe they can pretend it was all a dream. Not turning the other week was a complete misfire, rendered worst by the fact the crowd was begging her to bash Varsity Club 1 (or 2) with the chair and unveil her black, rotten, evil eye. She would have got a big-ass pop.

Damn, the ear. Talk about a trauma for the very first episode ! I still miss Lucha Underground sometimes. Brought me back to current pro-wrestling and made me evolve. My first posts about it in late 2014 are full of "bouh indierrific movez flippity flippity flop" boomer takes ! Too bad the company was managed by assholes with unfair contracts, which never ever happens in pro-wrestling, really. But I've gotta say, I don't forget when I get Johnny Elite and Swerve Strickland and have the Lucha Brothers and Thunder Rosa and Luchasaurus (she was his queen and master) getting big push, that I've been following them since the infamous Temple. Wonder what happened to that Prince Puma fellow though, he was ok, had some potential... Heard Matanza was hiding somewhere in Japan too...