MJH

He's not a priority but the work I've seen in NXT (which I think has it's good points but I don't think is great) does make me want to give his indy work a look. I don't see him breaking the 90 range on my list but I will be using some of the lower picks as markers for "let's see in ten years" and, depending on how I find his PWG stuff, etc, there's a decent chance he'll slot in at the base. Recommendations are appreciated.

Lawler's like the ultimate minimalist (and I'm a maximalist). Memphis doesn't connect with me as it does Will, for instance. Perhaps that a cultural thing; more likely it's a personal taste thing. That being said, I can definitely appreciate Lawler's work, and do regard him pretty highly. I think some of the Lawler pimping is hyperbolic (the Harley match was the Harley show, for instance, and you only need to watch a handful of Harley's matches to know whose spots were whose) but of all the guys whose stock has risen with people in the last ten years, except perhaps Buddy Rose (though I have more Portland than Memphis to watch), I'm most glad for Lawler's reappraisal. Right now, I'm looking at him in the 35-50 range, though that can certainly change and, like Alan, he's one of the guys I've singled out as a priority to get a thorough handling on, so there'll be more to come in this thread as I get through various matches/feuds.

For Loss' first and last sentence, there's a good chance I (and, judging from above, a lot of people) won't include Hogan. I'm not sure what the best comparison would be, but this is a literary list and he's the ultimate James Patterson. That being said, however, it's not as though Hogan is Hogan because Vince wanted him to be Hogan and gave him the late-'99-HHH push until he became Hogan... and he's so superlative in those areas that it's also kinda hard for me to ignore him entirely. I don't think throwing him in the lower quarter is "throwing him a bone", as Loss said, and there's an equally good chance I'll place him around there.

I agree with all the above. I don't know where I'll place Eddy exactly (anywhere from 10-low 30s) because, whilst as I said in the criteria thread that I value peak work over longevity, Eddy only really has a handful of great matches. The BOSJ '96 match with Benoit is my favourite NJ Jrs match hands-down and maybe the only one that truly holds up to me, Rey at Havoc is a perfect 15-minutes, I love the Smackdown match with Rey from '05, etc... but his resume of classics is short. Of course I love a lot of his lesser stuff, his character stuff (someone said to me that you can tell how good a promo Rock was because he had chemistry with Coachman: Eddy made a run with Chyna of all people hella-entertaining), and how his charisma and personality blossomed to such a degree is pretty much unparalleled. There's no question that Eddy was fucking great, and at his very best you can certainly make a case for him as US Top 5 at worst, but putting together some variant of the Gordy List to push for him as a Top 10 guy taking whole careers into account is tough.

Kawada and Taue were not "less is more" - compared to Kobashi and Misawa their movesets are smaller, sure, whose aren't?, but on an all-time heavyweight scale they're both top 10 in terms of their moveset size/variety. And I'm not going to hold his death/the rise of dangerous moves/etc against him (or Kobashi). One can certainly argue that a Tiger Driver off the apron or a Tiger Suplex off the ramp is far more physically-risky than a wrestler ever needs to be... however... in both their 10/98 and 3/03 matches said spots are built to perfectly, utilised within the story/structure for their full potential, and, in their own way, necessary for the purpose/narrative/etc of the match(es). I've pushed the 10/98 match as a classic for several years without doing a full breakdown on why and this poll is, I suppose, as good a time as any. But I mean, the long-term selling in those (and other) matches, that they rarely if ever degenerated into the now-common your-move-my-move 2.99 routine... and it's not as if Misawa's (or Kobashi's) moveset was top-heavy: they had way more low-mid-level moves than anyone else too. What absolutely shouldn't be overlooked with Misawa (and to a lesser degree Kobashi - especially as GHC champ - but it's a Misawa thing) is that he worked the babyface comeback better than anyone else. For as cool as "Lawler pulls down the strap!" is, etc... (NB: I realise the superman comeback is entrenched in US wrestling and I'm not going to hold it against someone for working it that way) the way Misawa would prolong it over a gradual four/five minutes is on a different level of work for one, and both more dramatic and offering up more dramatic possibility (think 12/96) for two.

More than most, perhaps, I emphasise peak over longevity. As I mentioned in either his thread or the "working #1" thread, Kawada is mine because at his best I think he's the greatest wrestler I've ever seen; the three All Japan guys are 1-3 because over a 4/5 year spell they were hitting an unparalleled level of work. Longevity will factor in, absolutely, but if I was a playwright, say, I'd rather have Hamlet and Lear and nothing else over forty, I don't know, Juno and the Paycock(s) spread over thirty years, y'know? I also value exceptional strengths higher than I do weaknesses: I understand - and agree with - most Toyota criticism... but... I also think she's one of the best offensive wrestlers ever, a hell of a hot tag, and a phenomenal face-in-peril (absolutely one of the best). She has too many superlative qualities where, if I was to have some strict methodology whereby I broke every wrestler down across say ten categories, scored each out of ten, and worked out the average for their overall "score", there're a couple of categories where she's 10+ and even if her said average was 5 I'd take her over someone who's 7 across the board because those couple of 10+s count stronger.

The thing with comparing wrestlers as they get older, even without taking injuries into account, is that most guys adopt part-time schedules into their forties (Flair didn't); but even moreso, if instead of aging them by their DOB you aged them in # of matches worked or # of minutes in-ring, Tenryu would have to work pretty regularly until he's, what, 100+? to match Flair. It's also worth wondering just how could Flair have adapted - his character was so fucking famous and such a part of his act that... I should point out that I'm not considering Flair for #1 at all (though he's not too far down the list by any means, indeed I'd be surprised to have him outside my Top 10), nor do I put as much stock in longevity as others might, but... Flair at 50 has a lot more mileage on him than Lawler, Tenryu, or Terry and that's not something people can ignore I don't think. But what were the odds on Flair running away in the lead with replies in his thread, -10000?

If nothing else, Satomura's one of the post-boom/s girls who would have been a star in any era, I think. The Aja feud was always some of GAEA's highest-regarded stuff as well as the Hokuto match. On Hokuto pre-90, there were some matches in the late '80s aside from the Chigusa match that I thought showed signs of the selling she'd become famous for that, when I revisit the Classics run, I'll add here. This is a more general point but with Joshi in particular I'm wondering about certain matches not being on YouTube. I've already put up a few matches such as the Chigusa match and the TLTB 89 stuff, and I know DoubleMiz has a load of matches too, but maybe it's worth having a misc. uploads thread for stuff that looks good on paper, we can't find online, and are of interest to people in considering various wrestlers?

Since I mentioned her in the Kandori thread, I guess I'll start this one... Essentially, Bull was great. Within her gender, she's a Top 5 candidate, and surely Top 10. She debuted a tad younger than most, got good as quick as any of them (there's a lovely little match on one of the earlier Classics episodes with I want to say Ogura, maybe for the AJW Title, that's well laid out and it's from about late 85. It's nothing extraordinary, don't get me wrong, but it's the kind of match you see from someone really early in their career and know they're on their way to being rather damn good), and in terms of one person carrying a company in-ring she did a fucking remarkable job from 1990 through to early 92 when the others started picking up. For the same old reasons she has less notable stuff after that, but matches like vs. Masami, vs. Kandori, I wish the 1/94 vs. Toyota was in full... there's no way she's not on my ballot and I'd wager she's one of the AJW workers more likely to appeal to most people on here. Essentially, Bull was fucking great.

Aside from Ozaki, the most notable Joshi omission is Mariko Yoshida. Jackie Sato warrants a thread. And, whilst I'm not her biggest fan, Toshiyo Yamada (given the obvious tags/etc)? LCO certainly warrant mention if we do the separate tag deal, I guess it depends on how thorough we want to be with the separate threads? Would 25 be a solid number of female nominees? ** On the shoot-style front, I can't find Tsuyoshi Kohsaka or Yoshihisa Yamamoto. Someone will consider Yoji Anjoh, too? *** EDIT: For some reason I'm not allowed to c/p into messages... I figure the above are suitably known and they all feature across multiple Yearbooks (Anjoh moreso in 91/2, Kohsaka/Yamamoto from 95-98). Hopefully it's a one-off thing and I'll be able to edit this and add the links tomorrow.

Even with those points on Han... I can't see him not making ballots of people familiar with his work. Something I'll throw in there that's been brought up in previous discussions but not here - the '95 match with Tariel is a fucking hell of a job. And it's all in Han's selling (of those damned weak ribs, of course). Another point not yet raised is that in his earliest matches Han threw and teased a lot more strikes, especially kicks, and quickly cottoned on to the fact that it was precisely in him having a weakness on his feet, and his strength being the ground, that gave his matches their important dynamic (against certain guys anyway). And, of course, the dude was no less than good in his first match. Shit, I've heard people forward the notion that he carried the '91 match with Maeda. I don't go along with that but for all the "quick study" plaudits of Akiyama, Angle, even Mika Akino, he's the only guy I've ever seen that written about.

Kandori is someone people ought to revisit. IIRC, it was actually Coey who was ahead of the curve calling for her reappraisal back in '02/'03. What she has more than any other woman is the Maeda-factor - she carried herself so fucking well. FLIK's seen more LLPW than me, I think, and there has to be at least a couple of hidden gems. I can't imagine her vs. Harley, given the right context/time/etc not being a hell of a match, and I can see Kandori vs. Eagle working rather well too. Going through Lorefice's tape-list there's a lot of Kandori matches in 92/3 (often tags) that look worth my time; I know I've seen the Kandori/Harley vs. Minami/Mita match on a terrible 6th-gen-plus VHS and really dug it. The Bull match is something I remember digging a tonne too (that and the Bull/Masami match are my #1/2 Bull matches to revisit for this). I'm looking at putting 15-or-so women on my list as a rough guess/guide, and Kandori's someone I have around the #10 spot of those going in.

That's an interesting one that I'm due a rewatch of. Misawa had the best TC match of the three without question; nor do I think anyone will doubt the Doc/Kawada classic is the Carnival Final. But in spite of that, I do recall aspects of that match reinforcing just how great Kawada was at that point, and thus it's a great match to look at for this poll.

I've got him at #1 right now and that's unlikely to change. He's one of those very few guys for whom I hardly feel I need to make an argument for putting at #1, but at his best (let's say 12/93-6/95) he's simply the best wrestler I've ever seen.

Chigusa was hands-down the greatest beneficiary of the AJW Classics run... she had everything you want in a top babyface: charisma, sympathetic selling, strong offence, etc, and if I were to break down Joshi into generations she absolutely has a chance of being my #1 for the '80s, even above Jaguar. Asuka I'm much less fond of but what I'd do to have got Chigusa/Jaguar right before the latter retired, and perhaps even more-so Chigusa/Bull in early '89. I'm on my lunch break now but I'll chip back in during the week having watched a few of her matches with something more substantial.

I don't think she's the best female wrestler ever, but... I can't think of another I've had more fun watching, consistently, than Kyoko. As Dan said, incredible charisma, enthusiasm, she captures the joy of performance better than any wrestler I can think of. She might have had the most well-rounded move-set in AJW, and I certainly think she had the best "shine" routine as the early baby-face control. I'm not sure she has anything of note after the Asuka series (the '99 match with Toyota is a nice tribute, I guess), nor do I envision myself combing through NEO shows to find any, but she's certainly a Top 10 female, perhaps pushing her way as high as #5?(I'd have to think about it more), but absolutely someone who warrants mention in this whole debate and I'd push for something around the 50-spot... I also second those matches listed above. Some people might enjoy the 9/91 match with Bull more than the later ones. I'd add: w/Takako vs. Ozaki/Cuty - Dream Slam w/Takako vs. Toyota/Hasegawa - 1/95 TV and especially 8/30/95 vs. Kansai - Big Egg vs. Toyota - 8/94 and the 60:00 5/95. Toyota vs. Kyoko were a better pair at the most stereotypical Zenjo sprint than Toyota vs. Yamada (for me, for their differences). The 8/94 - sans finish - is the "perfect" sprint for them... and the broadway just has to be seen. That they tried to work their match for an hour is insane; that they made it to about the 45:00 mark before it all fell apart is pretty fucking incredible.

Random point but... Joshi is so fucking dead now that Toyota's thread has no replies. Refreshing and depressing in equal measure, I guess. (I'll get around to more serious points in the individual threads and probably throw a few recommendations in there too)

Like Matt above, I feel Bryan's pretty far from Top 10 consideration; a lot of those ROH matches were messy-as-hell in terms of story and structure, etc. The accidental injury transition became almost a running joke, too. What his WWE run makes up for in coherency (in shorter matches, anyway - though I rarely had issue with Bryan's shorter matches to begin with), the predictable paint-by-numbers style obviously hurts. It's something he has no control over, but a weakness of the style is still a weakness. Now, don't get me wrong, Bryan's pretty damn great, his strengths far out-number the positives, etc; and if I had to name a best wrestler post-00 he'd be one of the first names I'd think of (taking longevity into account anyway - I think Kobashi and some others have had runs where they were clearly better than Bryan). But it's like Matt said above, aside from Jerad's breakdown of Bryan/London from 03 (I believe against Bret/Nash KOTR94 and for the SC GOAT poll, incidentally), I can't recall of too many instances where people really cut into his work.

Kawada, Kobashi and Misawa (in that order) are my 1-3. I just think they hit a level together at their peak that nobody else can match. Beyond that, I don't know, though I figure I'm likely to place Joshi wrestlers higher than most, and Lawler and Fujiwara lower (though not low).

Honestly, I don't know where I stand on Liger at all. He has so many blatant strengths, most, if not all, of which have been mentioned already in this thread, but... just about every famous match I've watched back in the past x years (vs. Sano 1/90, vs. Samurai 4/92, vs. Ohtani 96 & 97, etc) has been disappointing at best (see my comments in the Yearbook threads). Most of the famed junior matches of that era do little for me now (Benoit/Eddy BOSJ 96 being a notable exception). Even the Hash match I recall not liking as much as others (I'd have to re-watch it to give more details why). So, yeah, I just don't know... I can't envision a list where he's not in the Top 50, yet...

I never said he was "carried" by Misawa, but rather that Taue's role was easier (and he played it very well), and that Misawa's had the more difficult role and gave a better performance (it's one of the more revered of his career). Though I agree that anyone saying Nagata "carried" the match in '03 is clearly wrong - it's very much a Taue match to anyone at all familiar with him (i.e. a sprint based around his bombs, which Misawa cottoned onto being an ideal, easy way to work opposite Taue from the '96 TC match onwards). Absolutely one of the best strengths of Taue is that he knew what he did well, he knew what his weaknesses were, and he knew how to emphasise the former and minimise the latter.

I'm nowhere near as big a fan as some/most - he has terrific charisma, pretty unique, plenty of good-strong matches (though nothing I think is great), but he has pretty obvious limitations and weaknesses too - but for those who are fans, I recall (bear in mind I'm talking 10 years ago now) when I watched the UWF 2.0 run through, he was a lot of fun as the spunky, cheeky upstart. Anything with Fujiwara, Takada, Maeda, Yamakazi, even Funaki (i.e. any guy established way above him on the pecking order) ought to be a blast. On another note, could someone please point me to the Suzuki match I've - incredibly - never seen. He's against a young guy who has charisma and is getting a push, and it's preferably at Korakuen, and the young guy starts doing all of Suzuki's shit to him (his entire offence works as payback spots) before getting killed? There's no one working in Japan right now who I'd rather see 91/2 Kobashi work against than Suzuki, and that match as outlined has to have happened.

"The Four Pillars" really ought to be three; if it's four, the fourth is Jumbo, not Taue. Taue had a strong move-set (by '95, the apron nodowa was an important addition), to where someone who really oughtn't have portrayed a powerful ass-kicker did so with relative aplomb. It also allowed him to be quite the sprint worker, all things considered, and indeed most of his best matches outside of the usual suspects were sprints based around said strong move-set (see the aforementioned, though I feel somewhat overrated) Nagata match, or indeed any match he had with Misawa from '96 on. I forget whether it's the '95 or '96 match with Kobashi (I want to say the '96 one), where his strengths are really apparent; the opening half is pretty "meh", but when Taue takes over and starts rolling out the bombs and Kobashi's fighting from underneath it turns into a really strong match. His role in the '96 Tag Final was perfect because all he had to do was interfere whenever Kawada got under the kosh, and kick ass. Obviously the '95 Carnival Final is a bona-fide classic, though that's mostly down to Misawa and Taue's role in the match was, let's be honest, quite hard to fuck-up (which isn't a discredit to him - he was super throughout the tournament (fuck '91/2, the '95 match is his best vs. Kawada and, unusually, based around Taue as underdog until the finishing run)). That said, Taue was, at worst, on the precipice of being great, and able to hang with the three truly great workers around him, and if only for body of work, where he certainly played his part aptly, he has to be Top 50... Re: Ditch, I'd definitely put Hashimoto over Taue. The only advantage for Taue is the big spots/offence, and I can't envision Hash being in '90s AJ for too long before he finds something suitable for where Taue had the apron nodowa. With Liger my gut says Liger (I mean there's no question who's the more talented), but... I've found most notable Liger matches (vs. Sano, vs. Sammy, vs. Ohtani...) terribly disappointing.

Whilst I agree with dawho on Kobashi's positives (other than his matwork - what?), I can't understand most of those negatives. The notion that Kobashi can't structure a match was absurd enough when Lorefice would get on his horse way back when; it's patently ridiculous post-GHC when every match was well-structured in essentially the same way (opponent gives Kobashi a particular obstacle, he overcomes in, then falls prey to a big bump, generally off the apron, and then does the drawn-out Misawa-comeback). But the thing is... that's only an expanded version of a match-type he'd used frequently (usually in gimme-matches with guys lower on the totem pole) way back into the '90s. I mean if you want to say he overused the half-nelson relevant to its risk on the recipient, fair enough, though generally-speaking Kobashi took more punishment in matches than his opponents did, but, seriously, he couldn't structure a match? More specifically - he didn't trust Akiyama? I'm assuming you mean to structure the match? I never got any sense other than that they were great friends dating back to Jun's debut (where Kobashi gave him a hell of a match), and probably before (i.e. when Jun was in the dojo). Nor do I know what the "lazy-Misawa-post-1/97" structure us, unless you mean "have the other guy kill him and do his damndest to make the crowd think the other guy had a shot before doing the drawn out comeback" (that Misawa was doing long before '97). As for Kobashi being a "glory hog" - I know what you mean, but I think calling him a glory hog is wrong; I can't think of a wrestler more willing to do whatever it takes, whatever bump necessary, to put the other guy over and for the match to work; but when you have such charisma, and you're such a visible worker in a company where most guys aren't, you're going to take more of the attention. There's really not more I can say on Kobashi - he's a slam-dunk, bona fide, top 5 minimum.

PS I agree that Reigns' push isn't inorganic. He was getting over w/ the Shield and I don't think many others would have survived Rumble with the Bryan thing as he did. But Randy did him tonight, absolutely.