MJH

To play Devil's Advocate for a second... you can only work with what's out there. I agree wholeheartedly with kjh that the issue is in the portrayal rather than the quota, but if we take this idea of one Hispanic star, which is obviously silly, but Del Rio was a good but far-from-great worker, a decent but not great promo, with some but hardly major-level charisma... and he was the best candidate they found. You can toss some of that on bad scouting, sure, but (late career) Eddie Guerreros hardly grow on trees and even if we take the dodgy booking after the initial push (not to mention the incidents surrounding his departure) out of the equation, I don't see Del Rio becoming more than he did; Rey Misterio is a special fucking talent, and in his own way is as hard to replace as a Hogan. The New Day gimmick is awful, and yes you could definitely do more with Big E, but Kofi and Xavier Woods? Personally, I'd love them to give a greater focus on the women, but, whilst Charlotte and Sasha are decent enough, they're hardly the Zenjo girls from twenty years ago either. You can point to Ronda becoming a big star in UFC but her combination of talent, promo, and (yes) looks, is as common as a Rock. Most importantly of all though is that the product just isn't hot. That a) hurts their recruitment and is the biggest reason most of the talent in the last few years has come via the indies; Kurt Angle, Brock, those guys are going to Vegas rather than Stamford.

#1: Dusty Rhodes NWA Mid-Atlantic, 10/85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9py4aMK3aIU An obvious pick - I figure no explanation needed. And for a less obvious one... #2: Bret Hart WWF SummerSlam 1994 (I can't find a YouTube/Daily Motion link, obviously it's on the Network) Well-spoken - albeit with his tendency to ramble and repeat himself - but totally believable, and gets his/the point across perfectly. This might not be correct, but I recall this promo being included on the Cage Match for whichever DVD of Bret's had it on, and there's a reason for that.

As a footnote to JBL/Eddy... the filming of the chairshot to Eddy's gusher is the best-shot blood moment I can recall seeing: the announcers get wiped out and then the huge "ooooh!" when people see Eddy's face.

I think with WWE, more than any other company, talking of "greatest match ever" is a tad complicated because it's so often about the big moment; Bret/Perfect from KOTR is a wonderful, tight pro-wrestling match, one of the better face-vs-face-till-one-guy-turns-when-he's-getting-the-lesser-of-it matches I've seen, etc... and it's a far better "match" than, to pick an obvious example, Savage/Warrior at Mania 7, but where Bret/Perfect is really a nothing match in the grand scheme of things, Savage/Warrior is this big, famous event unto itself and much more of what WWE is really about when you get down to it. Similarly, and I haven't watched it in a good number of years now to say with any certainty, Bret/Austin at Survivor Series may be a better bell-to-bell match than Mania, but Mania is so much more than just the match and I doubt I have to point out why it's far more famous than the MSG one, y'know? And so given the above, I think it's about what matches best combine (or balance) both elements. Austin/Rock at WM17 is a great pick to me: you have a really strong "match" of Austin's growing desperation that builds perfectly into him turning; and you have this massive event that culminates one of the hottest periods in the history of the business.

My Japanese isn't great but I think 名勝負 = famous matches rather than "excellent". But essentially...

One of the great things about visiting Japan is that most of the tourists spots are both really cheap and easy to access, and they do a much better job than here (the UK): the buses in Kyoto, for instance, before every stop, will tell you in Japanese, Mandarin, English and I think Spanish of what temples are nearby so it's nigh-on impossible to get lost; I can't remember going to any tourist-y spot that didn't provide an English guide. And the temples, the parks, are all dirt cheap. The Peace Museum in Hiroshima is like 50 yen (less than 50 cents). But even if you're just staying in Tokyo (though you should venture a little outside - Kamakura is a nice day trip and only an hour on the train), I found Tokyo amazingly cheap as a tourist - the metro is cheaper than our local rail (I don't think I paid more than Y200-250 [$2] for any journey, the Suica card machines have English in most of the major stations, and each stop is announced in English) and I spent far less on food than I've ever done in London or NYC. Assuming you're ok with hostels, I stayed at New Koyo for about $25/30? per night having heard OJ recommend it elsewhere. In other words, you'll be able to splash out on wrestling without breaking the bank on other stuff.

Ah, my bad, I didn't see that the Tokyo Dome History piece wasn't updated to include last year, hence thinking 29k was last year not 2013.

What was the early figure, 37k? If correct, that's up 35% from last year and must surely be considered a big success? I'm genuinely amazed anyone was predicting a sell-out. Going by how Dave normally answers such questions, I would assume his was along the lines of "they're hoping for 40, but anything 35 and over is a success".

PS. What hurt the main to me is it felt set up for Okada's new finish. It cooled after the HFF and Rainmaker, and both guys are selling the "what's it gonna take now?" and that ended up just being another HFF. It doesn't improve the match dramatically or excuse the placement of the Rainmaker, but I think the finish would have made more sense with it.

Well we knew Meltzer's ratings would be OTT, but that was a very strong show. They blew through the undercard, but as others have said, if that's to give sufficient time to the top matches it's the right call. The junior tag crew have their shit down, and the early matches were just about guys getting their spots in, keeping up a good pace, and it flew by. Saku/Minoru was disappointing. I actually think they made the right call in doing a story-driven match - it's twenty years since the style drew in big numbers - and whilst they seemed to be in the wrong roles, the real issue to me was the finish came that bit too easily and they needed an extra three or four minutes. Makabe/Ishii went as predicted, and whilst Omega is way too over the top, I don't find him as other-worldly bad as some of you - his offence looks good, if nothing else, and if he tones the mannerisms down he's perfectly fine in the spot he's in. The tag title match benefitted tremendously from cutting time from last month, and Styles/Naito was good, building to a really well done finish. Nakamura/Ibushi was really good and MOTN. I love the upstart-pushes-vet-but-not-quite angle as much as the next guy, but the shift in physicality really worked and, as OJ said, turned it into quite the spectacle (in the right setting). The main? It wasn't their best, and at times was outright bizarre. Okada's DVD is usually a good near fall and was wasted (which I'd be ok with as an emphasised heel cut off but it didn't last for long), but the positioning of the Rainmaker was flabbergasting. And, as per, the stretch run (whilst good) was my-turn-your-turn city. That said those guys have more than enough positives to where an average match is a good one. So looking at it top to bottom I mean that makes a worthy show, and (helped by the setting) a Show of the Year Contender... but Best Show Ever and 7 **** matches (I could go **** on the IC) etc is ludicrous. But again, that's expected.

Oh come on, the guy has weaknesses but the idea he's anything short of great at executing his aerial spots is absurd.

Eh... I think you're being a tad harsh on Neville. He has nothing to offer? He's the crispest wrestler they have, and has the most spectacular offense. Granted he doesn't have much more to offer (and I agree that he doesn't offer as much from underneath as Bourne did), but I see him slotting in fine in the lower midcard, used mostly in tags and being the perennial flash guy for gimmick matches and whose finish will always get a pop.

An addendum: I'm not saying one truly great match trumps a truckload of very good matches... but I think being great over a period of two years betters being very good over a longer span because, ultimately, reaching that level of being great is rare. There's no hard-and-fast rule, of course, but the greatest of all time, to me, means who was the greatest at their greatest, not who was very good/better over the longest period.

KOTR 93. And I genuinely could see myself putting Bret/Hennig as both men's career match, and best WWE match ever.

I think we've had a thread on this before, haven't we, right at the start? But, anyway, longevity only factors in for me when the peak is very close; I'd rather write one Hamlet than a dozen Streetcars.

I do agree with OJ somewhat (he's clearly a super talent in the Breaks match in particular; his athleticism as a young kid - the cross-arm headflips, etc - was pretty much peerless). For all the easy flaws in his work, his strengths are still right up there: how many guys can match his bumping? and whilst we can go "oh, well Hamada was doing it a few years earlier" the reality is it was he (and Sayama) who everyone idolised and took from; when it comes to "being revolutionary", it's not about who did it first, it's who did it on the bigger stage/to more eyeballs/got the credit/etc. That doesn't make him a Top 25 guy, but it's hard for me, all things considered, to not have him on my list, admittedly in a lower spot than people might've put him fifteen years ago.

I remember the last time I watched this (for the first time in years) about four years ago for a DVDVR tag team poll. I think Kobashi/Akiyama were against The Rockers, and all I could think was that this match was several levels above anything Shawn and Marty did whilst being every bit as simple for the first-time watcher. This doesn't touch a top 10 AJ 90s tag, but it's a tag MOTDC just about anywhere else.

Ultimately, whatever happened after Cena won was just different degrees of retarded.

I didn't think Charlotte/Sasha was *bad*, not at all, and considering Charlotte's experience level (which truth be told I'd forgotten about) they deserve some leeway, but if that was the fourth match at an AJW show twenty years ago I'd have forgotten about it by the end of the show. I can't help but think, for example, that had Neville hit that moonsault->senton spot it would be called contrived (which it is) and he'd be called out for stealing Ibushi's spot.

I thought it was a pretty good show. Owens' debut was good and his offence has an emphatic-ness that a lot of guys don't. I thought Balor's entrance was trying much too hard but if it got over and most people watching enjoyed it, as seems to be the case, then that's fine. The women's match was fine - better than you'd get on the main roster but people are grading on a curve and if men executed the majority of that match in exactly the same manner we'd be calling then green. The main was good but I felt Neville got short-changed on the finish and I didn't buy the high kick as a finish coming after the other offence they'd both used. I also feel we needed more than my-turn-your-turn down the stretch to really build off the "Sami Zayn won't take advantage" thing. I feel sorry for Neville, really, as his mechanics are better than anyone else on the roster including Bryan, Cesaro, etc - the snap on his headlock takeovers, how he positioned himself at the last opportunity to catch the dive, his body control is absolutely unreal - but he doesn't have much else going for him, nor the extra few inches of height where he could get away with it. The post-match angle was superbly done though.

I absolutely think it could be successful, but it'll require several super talents. What turned Dana's mind on women? The fact that Rousey is marketable as hell and every bit as talented. If Paige and AJ Lee, for example, went out there with their eight-minutes of a PPV and were consistently working at a higher level than the best male talent, let's say Benoit's WCW debut vs. Eddy level in terms of a perfect sub ten minute match (and Eddy's whiffed-619 aside those guys were mechanically leaps and bounds ahead of anyone on the roster right now) they wouldn't be working the merch/beer/piss-break spot for very long. Or if Alicia Fox could promo like Dusty Rhodes, ditto. But I'm yet to see an American women's wrestler I'd go anywhere close to "great" in describing, and it would need at least one all-time-great plus a handful of girls who could keep up to make it happen.

But we're not taking about the Pedigree Jobber in 1995 where the move was new, AJ has been on TV doing that move for twelve years. You can talk about "instinct" all you want (though the nearest bump would be a moonsault where you don't tuck your head - you do handstand bumps rolling forward onto your back not the other way), it's a simple move to take and one of the slightest finisher bumps out there.

Eh, I don't have Bret as a Top 10 guy, but he's got a greater selection of high-end (for the WWE) singles matches than Bobby does. Bobby destroys him in tags, of course, but I'd say Bret's matches with Owen and Austin, to pick two of the most obvious, are more disparate than any of Eaton's best tag matches. And then you have Bret being a bigger star, and singles matches often count better with people than tags do (rightly or wrongly).

The 619 doesn't annoy me, per se, it is what it is, but it can certainly be seen as a flaw in the WWE style that spots have to be set-up so obviously for the fans to recognise what's coming. There's no reason he couldn't do the move as a heel is using the ropes to climb to his feet, say (the timing would be trickier because Rey needs the guy's weight on the ropes to tighten them and make the spin, if not possible, then certainly easier) - I'm sure the fans would still recognise what's coming. You could say the same for Booker's axe kick for instance, where the guy'd stay hunched over waiting for the spot in an unnatural position rather than have Booker hit the move as the guy's climbing up off his belly and Booker catches them as they're hunched over about to arch up vertical. Yes, Rey "puts them in position", but nobody ever bumps a headscissors/hurricanrana in that way except to occasionally bump out of the ring. And then there's the other WWE stylistic issues such as sequenced shines/comebacks/etc. Rey mixes his up more than Cena or Bryan or anyone really, but there's still that sense of the matches being programmed that would only be exacerbated by watching the product week-in-week-out to realise Rey's consistency (which is a point I very much agree with). I don't wish to harp on about it too much - Rey's great, he really is - but 25 is not a high number of guys at all to use issues with the modern WWE style as a means to keep Rey out of.

Whilst I agree with Rey's consistency as a TV worker, there's a number of very valid criticisms of the WWE style that could quite easily knock Rey out of a Top 25. 50? You'd probably need more to your case, but 25 isn't that many people.