MJH

Hmm... I can accept that as a walkthrough. I don't want to sound too down on the match because it's not as if they had many options.

The company/business being so image-conscious doesn't help them either. As much as she'll milk her appearance etc... Rousey walking into the octagon fresh from a beauty salon would be ridiculous.

Dave's point on the Raw Recap was an apt one: they never told you on NXT that the women were revolutionising women's wrestling! From the start, it's been ham-fisted. But, I mean the thing to bear in mind with the Bellas is, they're not going to be around for that much longer. Nor, for the reasons above, could WWE have threw them under the bus. Sasha's ten years younger than them, and to my knowledge there's only Becky (was it a concussion? or a neck injury?) of the NXT girls with any mileage on her. Bryan stumbled around for his first, what, eighteen months in the company? Punk was around for a few years (admittedly with a high upper-mid-card profile) before they pushed him into a main event position. Dolph winning the title in NJ was several years into his run with the company. I mean if there's one thing somewhat-positive about the stagnancy of the product it's that guys can tread water for longer than they could've in the past before they're truly relegated into "mid carders for life". What hasn't been mentioned is, whilst I'd like the girls to rebuff some of the material they're given, and whereas a guy with sufficient name and talent has the ability to make a good living outside the WWE (AJ Styles is a good example), the girls don't have that option; their egg shells are that bit more brittle.

I'm not so keen on the Joe match, I never connected with any real focus, it felt like a chance to see Kobashi do his spots live (ie an exhibition, which I should point out is absolutely fine given the setting). The Sasaki match is far better laid out (better than the Misawa/Kawada match too, I thought, last time I watched them), and that's what sets the AJ guys apart for me. I'm sure I've said this before, but Kobashi benefits so much from watching handhelds and the smaller comms. He had a formula (and it's a more logical one, to me, than Misawa's, though the latter had better matches given the when and who), but he'd go far harder than Misawa/Kawada on those shows and actually try and make something of matches vs. Jun Izumida et al.

I've never bought "the heel can't show up the babyface" theory, the end result of which is Perfect or Shawn doing SFA in their heat segments so that the shine and comeback look all the more exciting. As I said in my earlier post, what choice does Rollins have for offence? His advantages over Cena are speed and athleticism, ergo, he does fast, athletic spots. As I mentioned, he could've put more heelish mannerisms between them but the only alternative would've been working Cena's nose and not only would that get old rather fast but I can see the company mandating that he avoids it for understandable reasons. Grabbing the face was right there to counter the headlock, for instance, but if he can't go full blown on it (a la Kobashi 10/90) then... you could even have Seth say "I beat Cena and I didn't even attack the nose!" (which obviously isn't the full story) to give him something strong to gloat about (the nose was a boon and he needs something). As it relates to some of the "babyface spots" as outlined above, the hiptoss/dropkick/mock spot is a babyface spot, but it's a payback for the heel doing a hiptoss and posing, then a slam and posing etc leading into the babyface rattling them off together and mocking the pose (which I've always heard called the ______ two-step). Now, Cena establishing sections are rarely as involved as, say, Bret's were on occasion, but it's entirely possible that the idea was Cena shows his strength advantage comfortably taking Rollins down at will, not having to do much to maintain control, and Rollins' sequence is to establish both his speed and that he has to string moves together to stay on top. His mocking Cena afterwards was, I thought, one of the few heelish moments from either guy. It's difficult to do heel+underdog vs. face+favourite (though not impossible and if we actually think about it the face is often he favourite until some fates befall him). Heels also win slug fests all the time (granted, usually when there's a size difference and I would never have Rollins out-fight Cena). All that said, I don't want to sound like I thought the match was great (I didn't), and there's plenty of stuff I'd change, but Seth using fast an athletic moves isn't one of them. [And besides, wouldn't the "old school mentality" be for Cena to go full heel and Seth full baby given their respective reactions?]

I didn't dislike Cena/Rollins nearly as much as I did Cena/Owens. For those talking about Rollins' offence, (superplex/FA and corner powerbomb aside - I can forgive the AA because it's Cena's move) what else was he going to do? Unless Cena was prepared to have his nose broken again and have Rollins go all smarmy-bastard stomping away at it, which would've gotten old fast, he pressed his speed and athleticism advantages and a big part of the build-up, as alluded to by the commentators to their credit, was criticisms of Rollins being an undeserving champion and he was out to prove them wrong. Granted, I think he could've put more mannerisms around it, indeed he should've done, ditto gone at the nose more than he did, but I have no problems with him doing SSPs and such like; being the heel doesn't negate the fact he's smaller, weaker, but also faster; evilness and athleticism aren't mutually exclusive.. That said, Sasha/Bayley was clearly better. I didn't notice Cena's pre-kick-out-push-offs (which it amazes me nobody's told him about and they're one of those things you can't un-see once you've noticed), but the other big weakness in his execution (aside from the general ungainliness) is how he often telegraphs the AA counters. Seth's one of the most athletic guys on the roster, probably second only to Neville, he doesn't need John holding him that long to prepare for the AA-flip-off.

I don't think it is. Let's say hypothetically it's 1993 and AJW is airing in the US and the NXT crowds are coming to these women's matches having just seen Hokuto/Kandori... the NXT girls aren't getting raved about. I'm not blaming anyone for that - your perspective is only what you've seen, and we've all been teenagers who thought the hot band at the time was the greatest thing ever - but it is what it is. Most of them probably haven't seen even Bull/Alundra which I'm not sure is any worse than these NXT matches (the Raw match is terrible) and on Big Egg it stunk because of what it was sharing the stage with.

There's a difference between knowing Bayley will counter because we've seen enough wrestling to know what's coming, and knowing Bayley's going to counter because Sasha rears her arm back and holds it there for a second to cue Bayley that it's to be blocked, the same way when a guy comes half way across the ring with his arms raised in an axehandle and we know he's going to get kicked in the gut. Sasha wasn't that pronounced, but there was a noticeable beat to make sure Bayley remembered the spot or had heard her call (depending how much of it they'd worked out). That hesitancy is green. The trash talking spot wouldn't have been as obvious had Sasha been doing more of it ahead of time. Yes, it's the spot we want to see, that wasn't my issue, my issue was in the execution of it, and everything about Sasha leaning her head into the perfect spot and the camera angle, it was just too obvious to me that "oh, she's kicking her". As for the headbumps... we've given Sabu shit for over 20 years about falling on his head when he wasn't supposed to, getting up, and continuing with the planned spot/s as if he hadn't. Bayley wasn't that bad - she was meant to bump not land on her feet, say, it's not as if she got right up - but the reality is she fell off the top rope onto her head and nothing was made of it. The problem with Sasha's wasn't that she popped up - she bumped, rolled over to the ref to say she was OK, gave Bayley time to get up, and then fed up into the finish. I'm OK with them having the Bayley-to-Belly as a plan b had the rana not looked too good (say Sasha overrates and clearly lands on her knees), but given how well it looked there's no way that needed anything coming afterwards and you've given Bayley her ultra-big-show-finisher. And it needed no more from the ref than "you good?", "yeah", "stay". For what it's worth, I didn't think Bayley "no sold" the hand (?), the stomping spot into the counter was a fucking great spot/sequence, the match hit all its cues and delivered on the emotion etc... and I probably did prefer it to the G1 final (which had far better execution but I found far worse-laid-out, etc), and to Cena/Owens... but "great" to me is a level these girls just aren't at, their mechanics simply aren't good. Nor are Cena's, mind you, but for all his patterns he doesn't telegraph nearly as much. I mean I don't want to harp on about it, we clearly have differences in how we look at wrestling (whilst I'm not a ratings guy, ****3/4 would be equal to any women's match I've ever seen, better than any match since 1998, and as good as all but four matches I've ever seen period), but there's a fundamental weakness (/green-ness) in their execution that I can't ignore and needs tightening up.

The women's match was good but great let alone MOTY? It had some good spots and was pretty well laid out (although I'd have given Bayley more of a comeback segueing into the hand-section), and there's no question these girls are better than what we've seen women do in the WWE since Aja made Vince shit himself, but that doesn't change the fact that a good percentage of the spots were rough around the edges (and Bayley nearly broke her neck as a result of one). Sasha telegraphed the hope spots so badly: when her strikes were to be countered she'd pronounce the pull back and everyone and their mother saw the kick coming from the trash talk; that's just loose, sloppy work. There are plenty of guys who we'd pounce on for being up off Bayley's failed hurricanrana bump as quickly as she was, ditto Sasha popping up off the reverse one even if it was to feed into the finish (which further highlights the point made a few days ago about finishers in WWE). Again, a good match, I enjoyed it a lot, but there's such obvious room for improvement.

Well, Bull will be, along with Chigusa, the one who's risen the most since 2006, absolutely. At that point I'd only seen a handful of AJW Classics and hardly any 90-mid'92. But I don't think you can make the #1 argument for her mostly due to timing. You really have to see the full shows during her title run to realise how great she was and, unless someone is an avowed joshi fan, it's not gonna be the highest priority (especially with most of the hidden gems being on the Yearbooks). Jaguar is a true before-and-after figure, Chigusa was sensational and the best female babyface worker ever (and a very strong candidate for best babyface outright), and obviously Hokuto had that unreal run. I can't look past them as the top three, they're about as unshakeable as the AJ3 being my overall 1-3.

He's working 2015 New Japan not 1995 All Japan... I thought the Ishii match was as ROHrific as it gets. In response to the post above, though, I have no issues with his delayyyyyyyed vertical. As a "show of power" spot it's nice and simple. If there's a Kobashi bump I'd urge everyone to steal though, it's his bumping in synch on the vertical, which greatly emphasises the impact, and Elgin should definitely take it.

A couple of the Zenjo girls, most likely. Perhaps not Hokuto or Aja, probably not Chigusa, but maybe Toyota and Kyoko (though I know Dan's a fairly big fan of her early-90s work). I've got Kawada, Kobashi and Misawa as #1-3 though I can see each having #1 votes. I've said in his thread I've no issues watching Benoit and love his work so there's a solid possibility there. And whilst I can pick apart the work and it's not as though I disagree with the criticisms, I'll still have Dynamite higher than most and his ballot-% will be way down. I also think Volk Han is astounding on so many levels to not finish high, ditto Tamura in a slightly different way, though with the latter's thread having some interest recently I can't be sure.

It's all about accumulative selling which, as I've written/ranted about before, is nowhere near good enough in 99% of "BIG FINISH!" runs. Similarly, they're almost-religiously back and forth and all too frequently ditch whatever "story" was going on for the first half. The drama in the great AJ matches came from being the opposite of the above. On that note, 12/6/96: sometimes evil just prevails. Shakespeare's tragedies are performed considerably more often than his histories/comedies.

I credit him getting over in the G1, but my God were his facials goofy as fuck in a very distracting Johnny Ace way.

Tamura and Han will make my top 25. I have nothing to add beyond that's been said above, though the '96 match is, I feel, a better introduction to Tamura (and Han) as it has the strongest story-dynamic (vet-underdog) of the three. But the whole series is only forty minutes anyway. Also nice to see the first Tamura/Anjoh match getting some love as when I discovered that in... 2002? on a bunch of ex-rentals my Japanese contact at the time sent me it was the great young Tamura match I was hoping for. Worth bearing in mind that it was his 10th match or thereabouts as he missed most of '90 with an injury.

For me, Bryan/Cena is hurt more by HHH/Bryan at Mania than the cash-in afterwards; going purely from memory, I recall being colder than most on Cena/Bryan and thought it was in the mould of Cena/Punk MITB (i.e. lacking in any real structure/"narrative" focus). Sure, with Hunter being the heel, the Mania match was always going to come together more naturally, but even with Cena as face (or tweener), they're too similar in story that when HHH/Bryan highlights what I remember as being a big weakness in the Cena/Bryan match, it hurts it. Still a very good match that I might re-watch for clarification. I was similarly colder than most on Lesnar/Punk but I forget the reasons. Re-watch in order. [(Edit from rewatch) There's a lot of good work in Bryan/Cena, but I don't think it's laid-out particularly well. They hit most of the necessary notes (Cena's power, Bryan's resilience/"never say die" - the underdog comes from the announcers not the work which is too back-and-forth for me) but it doesn't come together as a whole and there's some miss-steps both doing that (the guillotine choke spot would be really good but the audience don't get it) and otherwise (Daniel's awfully close to heel in his aggression when he first gets control). In some ways, it's as if they were afraid to lay out a Cena match where the other guy is the one to root for. For me, the match needed a longer control from Cena (we got a few minutes and an oddly-placed powerbomb), but also a really strong near fall for him; he hits the AA too early in the stretch so whilst there's a pop for the kick-out, it's not a heart-stopper like the one towards the end of the Mania 3way. The stretch doesn't go overboard as Cena might work it now with Owens etc, but I think they scaled it back just that one or two spots too many.] // Incidentally, I wouldn't have HHH/HBK as #1 by any stretch, but I can't think of many singular spots more unfairly maligned than Shawn's kip up in that one.

The importance of limb-selling is greatly overrated. As overrated as working a body part is overused. In most cases it's just a bullshit way to fill time, and it should never be the sole focus of a match. We've went over this before (I'd guess in relation to Sammy/Ohtani 1/96), and whilst I understand from a wrestler's perspective that focusing an attack on the leg, the arm, whatever, is the easiest way to focus your control, and to beef up the offence of a guy otherwise limited, it's... it wasn't a major "plot point" in Nakamura/Tanahashi, and Nakamura shouldn't have his primary offence inhibited by a smattering of leg attacks, he's one of the toughest guys in the promotion, and whilst, sure, sell it afterwards, it hurts him to use the knee, it's damn sure gonna hurt Tanahashi more. Work Hansen's arm all day, he'll still swing the lariat, and you'll still be KTFO for the extra five or so seconds it takes him to cover you. As for the match otherwise... it didn't do much for me. It was entertaining, and hardly bad, but I didn't connect to anything they were doing. I got no sense of one being the favourite at any point, I didn't pick up on any real structure or order other than back-and-forth, the odd leg spot, whatever. I mean it's fine to portray than as evenly matched, but whereas, say, Elgin/Ishii had stupidly bigger spots than they got anything from, this needed such a big spot, say around the 20-minute mark since they went, what, 33? and build your climax through that (one guy finally has the advantage, the other guy is hanging on, trying to fight back, and he either pulls out the comeback or he doesn't). And there's dozens of ways you can work through that finish. This had none of that (or I didn't pick up on any), it's just a case of pick your guy and hope he wins. It's the - I hasten to use the word and we've been there countless times - self-conscious-epic 101. Worked for their crowd, worked for Meltzer et al... but did nothing for me.

I've been playing catch up the last few days, so somewhat lumping everything together: AJ/Tanahashi is the best match to date, and the only one I was really impressed with. I thought they did a good job maintaining Tana as underdog, and his selling (other than the speed-up-the-ropes for the HFF which I'll never get) was stronger than NJ mains tend to have these days. Nakamura/Okada didn't do nearly as much for me, and they wasted two great spots (the DDT on the floor is fairly standard for Okada but the tombstone should've been used far, far more effectively than it was). I didn't find the no selling in Shibata/Ibushi as egregious as some have - the whole match was "my dick's bigger than yours". I don't like it, and regardless of his positioning Ibushi should never be doing those kind of matches, but they were no-selling everything else just about so... Honma/Ishii was pretty fun, though Honma isn't the guy to be doing the Kobashi/Kensuke spot with. Michael Elgin has absolutely-fucking-Johnny-Ace-bad facial expressions and I'm amazed that hasn't been mentioned yet. The running powerbomb into the rail on today's show is quite possibly the most wasted spot I've ever seen. Nor has Elgin learned that Kobashi used his apron spots as big transitions not as hope-spot-cut-offs when the guy hitting the spot already has the momentum/advantage.

Firstly, on the subject of inter-gender matches: domestic violence (both ways, it needs to be said) is fair game theatrically, and I'm sure we can all name films, plays, novels, etc, where the subject matter is used effectively. There's no reason, hypothetically, that it can't work in wrestling, but it would take a maturity amongst the writing staff that simply isn't there. Secondly, Bill, if you think Sasha is in the same stratosphere as Neville or Finn technically you're out of your mind. I get preferring her as an act (she's a better character, certainly, and I'm no particular fan of either of those guys as overall professional wrestlers), but those guys are crisp as anything; she simply isn't at their level when it comes to actual technique. Neville in particular, for all the negatives one could toss his way, is unreal-crisp.

As I said originally, my suggestion for having Charlotte wrestle Neville, for instance, is simply so she can be in the ring with someone who, from a technical POV, is far better than any of the women, and have to learn to keep up, thus improving her mechanics. Even in the better NXT women matches, you put Sasha/Charlotte side-by-side with Neville/Finn, there's a massive difference in how well they're hitting their stuff. Obviously that also comes down to experience as well, but my point all along is that, for the women to get where they want them to, they have to be as good as the best guys in the company, i.e. Bryan, Cesaro, etc, especially from a technical POV because the audience has been conditioned for so long to expect the divas to be sloppy as shit and they're not gonna get there working each other.

Shawn was better suited to carrying guys - and made a point of it. Hogan caught him out at SummerSlam (you don't try and show up Hogan), but Shawn would be like a meta-Flair in terms of "look at the work I'm doing with this choad" and his bumping on the shine/comeback, especially early in his singles run, would dwarf his heat segment for interest. Austin was more smoke-and-mirrors, but he could plug anyone into it, even Vince, and it be solid. As far as actual performances go, I'd put Mania X7 and Benoit-Edmonton up there with anything Shawn did. I know plenty of people won't watch the latter but it's the pinnacle of Austin's admiration for Terry Funk, whilst balancing out the stooging with maintaining the "Stone Cold" character/toughness. Shawn had more in-ring strengths, or was more naturally-gifted, or however you want to put it, but Austin's peak work does more for me, personally. And I'm probably one of Shawn's bigger fans on here. Does that make Austin better? I don't know; it's inevitable that you'll warm more to a guy whose talents grow on you over time than someone who rubs it in your face from the off.

Shawn, in the right mood, was clearly a dream to work with: if we take "worker" in the sense of how he's like to work with, physically, feeding spots and hitting his marks - and again I stress him not throwing a fit and what have you - there are very few guys I can think of having watched where I thought "what a breeze that'd be" than Shawn. That'll be a big part of it.

He's a little like Jake to me... I love him... until the bell rings. Piper has a few matches I really like (which Jake doesn't), but not enough for a list like this. Characters? Top 10. Promos? Ditto. Matches/ring work? Not so much.

There's a difference between Hero "not looking like a star" because of his appearance, and not looking like a star because of how he carries himself. Dusty carried himself like a star and was in worse shape. Harley had a gut but you'd walk in fear of the guy. Ditto Murdoch. Ditto Aja Kong or Dump or Bull for the women. Hero doesn't have any of that whenever I've seen him. He'd "look" just as amateurish with a 32" waistline. (FTR since he was brought up, I think what worked against Bryan most in the eyes of Vince/co not seeing him as a star is the same thing... he's too laid-back, shy, quiet, whatever to carry himself as one. Whilst Punk also always had mic skills Bryan didn't, and an important extra 3" of height, even in the days of his most egregiously indy long shorts appearance, he always saw himself, and carried himself, like a star).

I've never had any problems watching Benoit. I watched probably his best match (sleepers vs. Eddie) on the Thursday? I think of that week and even right in the midst of that there was no doubt he's one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen. Best execution ever circa 95/6 and I don't think it's close. Very very strong bumper. Of all the NJ juniors he's the one whose matches had structure more often than not. Great great TV worker. Made everyone in WWE up their game when he came over. On the half dozen handhelds I've seen from that era in WWE it's literally shocking how much better his stuff looks opposed to everyone else's. Very versatile, super consistent. A fucking great pro wrestler.