The importance of jobbers

[BrickHithouse]

The Rougeaus should have brought in a house cat to combat the Bulldogs and Matilda. The cat would be black, and would end up with a white strip of paint from a different scenario each week. Jimmy Hart could bring in the litter box and they could have worked that into the mix as well.

[jdw]

I would like to see you explain how that's a misreading jdw.

Okay...

 

In the long debate we've just had, there seem to be two general assumptions made:

 

1. That a strong card is a good thing.

Was anyone make that assumption? And in what context?

 

* If you're running a promotion in 1986, a Hulk Hogan Card is a good thing because it's going to draw.

 

* If you're a Hogan Fan in 1986, a Hulk Hogan Card is a good thing because you got to see Hulk.

 

* If you're a pro wrestling fan and want to see a good show with good matches and a good number of storylines you're invested in, that might *not* be a good thing.

 

A "strong card" and a "good thing" card are relative.

 

"Strong Card" really doesn't apply to the first two, unless we define "Strong Card" to mean any that has Hulk on it. Despite this being a hardcore hangout with lots of discussions on work and matches, we've also had enough discussions over the years on the business side in general and Hogan in specific that one would be surprised how people here look at "Hogan On The Card" being a major and important thing for the WWF in this era.

 

"Strong Card" *might* apply to the last one, but that's subjective to on what "good show", "good matches" and "storylines" mean to him. A "strong JCP card" might not mean dick to a WWF fan who doesn't care about those guys, or their type of wrestling. In turn, the WWF might put on their "strongest card" (let's call it Mania III) and a JCP fan might be bored out of his mind by 90% of it, and the other 10% not being enough to make up for it.

 

I don't think you'll find that Assumption being made in as clear cut of fashion in the prior thread as you might think it was.

 

 

2. That jobbers and JTTS are just fodder. Or at any rate, that a lot of JTTS on a roster isn't adding any depth.

You're pointing to a post of mine without citing anything in it that that backs up your claim.

 

It would appear that the comment about about JTTS you are hanging your "that a lot of JTTS on a roster isn't adding any depth" assumption on is this at the end:

 

One thing that jumps out is that the WWF had a lot of JTTS on the roster. I count around 20, and that doesn't include Jimmy Jack Funk or Cousin Luke. There clearly are some on the JCP roster, but there just aren't as many of the likes of these guys working regularly:

 

Barry O

Bob Bradley

George Wells

Jerry Allen

Jose Luis Rivera

Mr. X

Salvatore Bellomo

Steve Lombardi

Terry Gibbs

 

JCP has their Rocky Kernodle, but Stallion was more succesful in 1986 than Roma and Power, Nelson Royal was similar to Garea and Goulet, the Thunderfoots were the Moondogs... for the most part, there are two in the WWF for every one in JCP.

That's an Observation. There's no conclusion drawn in it that that the WWF doesn't have depth. Simply that in September 1986, that the WWF's larger roster also had a large number of JTTS. Others can run with it, as obviously you have run with it.

 

Look at where you ran with it, and breaking it into parts:

 

* That jobbers [...] are just fodder.

 

Yes, 1986 straight jobbers are fodder... literally. They are there to get squashed on TV. No one is going to claim the Mulkeys or Al Navarro were anything other than pure fodder. They really weren't part of the real roster. Look at those roster lists for the two promotions that you posted, and your treatment of them: You weren't arguing that the Mulkeys or Al Navarro should be included on the list. I suspect that if you gave it a minute's thought you'd agree that to straight jobbers who (almost) only work TV tapings getting squashed were fodder and quite different from JTTS.

 

* That [...] JTTS are just fodder.

 

Go back to the very early part of the thread from last year. I was the one breaking down how JTTS fit into the promotion. I was the one that looked at a month of SD Jones' house show matches. I was the one that walked through the entire year of SD's Primetime matches. I was the one took the time to try to put him into context with his fellow JTTS, lowly straight TV jobbers, and those higher on the roster.

 

* that a lot of JTTS on a roster isn't adding any depth

 

After someone came in with an odd list of JTTS for the WWF, who took the time to walk through each to discuss:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...15284&st=20

 

That would be your list, and that would be me responding to. It also responded to your thoughts on JCP, with things like seeing Sam Houston as a mid-carder.

 

There is some irony that I was the one showing respect for JTTS and Mid-carders in the prior thread before it got restarted and ventured off into your later tangent. This is a point that people were making in the prior thread, and others: there is a disconnect between what people are saying and how you process it.

 

I don't think anyone views you as an asshole (in contrast to how people view me), and no one thinks your a bad guy trolling the boards. I love your enthusiasm for wrestling, which certainly outstrips mine and any number of burned out fans online. You'd like to make me a gods and kings heel in the prior thread. But you do need to slow down and realize that the disconnects that lead you getting into these types of frustrating discussions is largely you.

 

Note: I said slow down, not stop. I'm not trying to drive you off, nor is anyone whose reached this point with you in other discussions. Just slow down when it gets to a certain point, and think about whether you're misreading others and their points.

 

 

Those two things weren't implied by you?

They weren't.

 

Really?

Really.

 

It wasn't strongly implied in that thread that strong cards are a good thing?

No, because "strong card" has a variety of meanings. After all, various people spent time putting over Hogan Cards as drawing. It's a business: drawing is a good thing too.

 

 

You didn't point out WWF having 20 JTTS on the roster when doing a depth comparison in order to imply that there wasn't really that much depth?

Re-read the post.

 

I wasn't doing a depth comp.

 

I was correcting a totally screwed up Roster List that you posted. It blew my mind that you posted such a total shit list that you *had* to know was wrong since you'd mentioned numerous wrestlers throughout the thread who we not on the list.

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear enough on what the point of the post you're point to was. Let me explicit:

 

I was fucking gobsmacked you posted such total shit. I felt the need to correct it, and took the time to do so. In detail, just so that you couldn't pull about one of your kooky attempts to dispute it. I also had a long introduction to explain why certain people weren't included so that I wouldn't have to answer your questions on why the Mulkeys or Al Navarro weren't on the list. A detailed, explained list to clean up the shit you dumped in the thread as "fact".

 

Clear?

 

 

Why did you mention it then?

What was the title of the entire thread, Jerry? It's right there: "The JTTS". I made an observation about the large number of JTTS on the WWF "Roster" in September 1986 because it's the topic of the fucking thread.

 

It's also noteworthy the two "Rosters" that you dumped on the thread didn't include JTTS. So it also felt like an observation that needed to be made.

 

 

I get it though, the fault can't possibly be yours, it has to lie with me, right? Fine.

Jerry: you posted a totally fucked up list that (i) included people for FLORIDA in the JCP, (ii) included Women in the WWF list but not the JCP list, (iii) included Superstar Graham despite his working one TV taping match and instantly going out hurt without working any house shows, (iv) missed a staggering number of wrestlers from both promotions including wrestlers who had been mentioned in your very own posts earlier in the thread, and (v) didn't include any of the guys who were the subject of the thread, i.e. the JTTS for both promotions who regularly / semi-regularly worked house shows that month.

 

That's my fault?

 

No. You screwed that pooch because you're too lazy to do your own research and instead used a list that even you had to know was crap.

 

Then you misread the point of the post.

 

 

Anyway, this is not really about you -- or indeed about me -- even if you didn't have those assumptions in mind, I still think it would be good to interrogate them.

Interrogate? That's funny.

 

 

There was a general conclusion that JCP used their roster better than WWF in that thread (or is this a misreading too?!),

I'm not even sure that was a conclusion. They used them differently when composing a card. It was also gone into that part of that was due to the WWF working more "crews" than JCP. So yeah, that's likely a misread too. You tend to have a habit of misreading every comment as a slight of the WWF and praise for JCP.

 

 

I think going through those questions might put some doubt on that, or at least complicate that conclusion.

But if your assumptions are wrong, are you asking questions that are relevant?

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, I accept there was a fundamental disconnect in that whole argument which has led it, in my mind, to be something of a trainwreck. Also, I really appreciate the time you take in breaking things down -- this is not a joke or sarcasm -- I really appreciate it. Stuff like the early parts of this thread from 2 years ago and the early part of the JTTS thread and many other examples of times you've done that are invaluable. Not just for me, I'm sure for lots of people who post or lurk here. That's it.

 

I am interested in booking philosophies and also in the very different ways JCP and WWF were booked in the 80s (more from the promoter's point of view than from a fan perspective to be honest), and think that the list of questions I outlined on the page prior could lead somewhere one day, but maybe the timing and context isn't right.

[Franchise]

I am more in line with this kind of thinking.

 

And no, there's really no going home again on this one, at least not on a widespread level. I've said it before and I'll say it again (in fact, I'm really just C&Ping something I wrote at DVDVR a while back), taking a cue from our friends overseas and south of the border and focusing more on 6/8/10-man tags is probably the best solution to the problems Jerry outlined above. It gives people star vs. star matches on TV. It allows big singles/tag matches to be built up without burning out the match-up before they can even get to PPV. It gives lower-ranked wrestlers a chance to associate with higher-ranked ones that they might not have had otherwise, and in doing so, gives them the chance to make a bigger impression and opens up the possibility for them to get tied up in feuds or alliances with big names. It also means less time in the ring per match for everyone involved, and less wear and tear as a result.

Jobber matches can be fun to watch but week over week they become boring.

 

I would prefer to see a mix of

 

Time limit draws

 

6/8/10 man tags (Elimination, 1 fall & 2 out of 3 falls)

 

JTTS who also exchange wins over other JTTS from time to time

 

TV time remaining matches that end in draws due to the show running out

 

Double pins that result in a rematch

 

Talent coming in for short peroids to be filler programs.

 

I also liked when a tag wrestler would job to a singles wrestler in a singles match and the announcers would blame his lack of singles expierence or some such reason. It allowed more name v name matches without having to worry about killing a push.

 

I always liked how the NWA/WCW TV Title had a short time limit. The champ didn't have to win each match he just needed to survive.

 

 

I am interested in booking philosophies and also in the very different ways JCP and WWF were booked in the 80s (more from the promoter's point of view than from a fan perspective to be honest), and think that the list of questions I outlined on the page prior could lead somewhere one day, but maybe the timing and context isn't right.

 

This isn't totally what you are looking for but I think it will shed some light on it

 

Clearly the NWA was geared more towards adults & had a much higher quality of marquee match across all of their shows. The problem was that their # 1 show was a cable show so it wasn't in every home. Inconjuction their syndicated programs weren't on top tier local channels. They had few video releases outside of the PPV's & no televised house shows. COTC was often time better than SNME in my eyes but again it was on cable. In the 80's cable wasn't a common staple of life, it was a luxury to most @ least in my area.

 

The WWF was geared to families and with much better syndication. They had 2 hours on free TV every week (@ least in my area Superstars & Challenge) & had SNME on NBC which usually featured mostly name v name matches. Most importantly to me & my friends growing up they released CHV's featuring name vs name matches. I know a lot of people look down on them now but back then for a person without cable CHV's ruled the earth. If you had cable & lived in the right market you could get a televised house show, PTW & the syndicated shows.

 

With all that being said the other major differences were that the WWF had people built up as Super Heroes (Hogan, Warrior, Andre, Undertaker, etc) Where as the NWA didn't really have that. The Road Warriors were the exception to that, but even Nikita seemed beatable against the correct challenger. So when the NWA had a high profile match like Flair v Windham on WWW in 87 it was a great match. Chances are no matter who Hogan faced it was going to be a one sided affair or go thru the usual Hogan antics. But again that was based upon the audience the promotion was targeting.

 

both promotions were booked with house shows being the big ticket.

[Log]

JTTS who also exchange wins over other JTTS from time to time

Seems like that's all you get now.

[Franchise]

I haven't watched in years but growing up I always liked watching Bravo, Valentine, Martel & Tito and they were basically JTTS by 89 but they could take a star right to the limit & could fued within the mid card level & be entertaining.

[Guest Andrews]

Actually, of all the mid -Eighties promotions, it was World Class and Mid-South/ UWF that had TV shows with lots of top name matches.

I'd say this is pretty accurate, with TWA / ECW following suite in the 90's.

 

Can't begin to imagine the advantages a lot of ECW talent would have made of jobbers...