Wrestling Aesthetics and You

[Ditch]

One thing I like to focus on in selling is that wrestlers shouldn't act like they're hurting *less than they actually are*. Bodyslams hurt! Suplexes hurt! Wrestlers can be tough as nails and popping up after a rough bump is proof of that, but they'll still look tough if they get up relatively fast while registering the pain of the move. A no-sell done slowly and deliberately comes across as much more dramatic than the "pop up ---> hit move in retaliation" spot. See: Undertaker's sit-up. There are even differences in how Hogan's no-sell finish was done, and he drew way better when "hulking up" looked like it required effort than when it looked like his opponent's finisher revived him.

One time on a horribly whiffed superkick where the guy bumped despite a solid two feet of daylight in between his head and the kicker's boot, I just blurted out "he saw that superkick coming, tried to duck down out of the way, but he threw himself too hard and bumped his head on the mat!" to explain his selling.

That is phenominal.

[Jingus]

Since it wasn't a "Liger Finish", then would have to be a "Sasuke Finish" if it were *planned*.

Not necessarily. Just because a guy doesn't do something repeatedly, that doesn't mean he can never do it on rare occasions. I've seen plenty of odd one-time-only moments where guys try something that they seldom or never tried before or again.

 

That being said, the spot in question looked like a simple botch, so until evidence comes up to suggest otherwise that's what I assume it was.

 

One thing I like to focus on in selling is that wrestlers shouldn't act like they're hurting *less than they actually are*. Bodyslams hurt! Suplexes hurt! Wrestlers can be tough as nails and popping up after a rough bump is proof of that, but they'll still look tough if they get up relatively fast while registering the pain of the move.

Yeah. You see the worst of this with spot monkeys and deathmatch wrestlers on the indies, where being tough and absorbing legitimate pain seems to be something that they get off on. Like, any deathmatch which involves salt or lemon juice or ammonia or any other shit which hurts really bad if it gets in your cuts. What's the point of that? It doesn't help anyone win the match, like a real weapon could. It doesn't even have to be real, you could use Mello Yello and sugar instead of real lemon juice and salt, but you just know that the Corporal Robinsons and Madman Pondos of the world insist on using the real shit. Why? The audience can't see that it hurts, like with a stiff strike or a big bump, and the guys rarely bother selling it too much because they're so focused on being tough. That's even worse than unforgivable bullshit like where a guy will do a balcony dive and then completely no-sell the pain. Even fuckin' New Jack knew better than that.

[Bix]

My reasons for thinking it was the planned finish:

 

- It's seamless. Liger reacts immediately with the applause. Liger doesn't appear to have time to get over to call the new finish and Sasuke hits the standing huricanrana as soon as humanly possible.

 

- It's a great finish for Sasuke's upset win, better than hitting the springboard huricanrana or whatever after Liger celebrated the koppo kick.

 

- It fully establishes Liger's subsequent characterization as an asshole in interpromotional matches.

 

- Sasuke didn't usually do outside-in springboard moves and one would be needed if it was the planned finish.

 

Sasuke's left foot definitely misses the top rope but that could have very well been planned.

 

As for why it would be a legitimately botched spot, the original would be more of a typical Liger booked finish for sure and you could also argue that Sasuke botched it because it wasn't something he normally did. Sasuke not using it before can be used to argue in both directions, though.

[Resident Evil]

I can't remember if I've asked this before, but...

 

Do we have any way of knowing that what ended up happening wasn't the planned Liger-Sasuke finish?

I think by that point we had five years of "Liger" matches and finishes to study and recall. Was there another finish that was remotely like that?

 

I'm talking along the lines of the WP-Sasuke finish in the Final. That one wasn't a regular finish of WP's matches, but it certainly was consistent with a lot of finishes we'd seen out of WP in New Japan.

 

John

 

For the record, in case anyone didn't know the finish of the J Cup 94 match was a tribute to the incredible and underrated DK vs Cobra championiship match when DK won the belt.

 

Also, about Sabu. I have heard that he blew spots on purpose before. If he did, that would be a smart move for his persona though reckless in the ring.

[MJH]

No... it was a legitimate botch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3M2W9_a4s 9:00...

 

Watch Liger. Yes, he reacts exceptionally fast once Sasuke hits. Watch his body language as Sasuke trips though. That's not a guy expecting that spot.

[FLIK]

Also, about Sabu. I have heard that he blew spots on purpose before.

Mikey Whipwreck confirmed this in one of his interviews on Wrestling Observer.

Broke my heart

Can't believe in anything anymore...

 

If he did, that would be a smart move for his persona though reckless in the ring.

If wrestling is supposed to be a reflection of life, if wrestling is supposed to appear "real", nothing in the world is realer then imperfection & failure.

[Bix]

No... it was a legitimate botch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3M2W9_a4s 9:00...

 

Watch Liger. Yes, he reacts exceptionally fast once Sasuke hits. Watch his body language as Sasuke trips though. That's not a guy expecting that spot.

I dunno, to me it looks like he's just moving his head along with the bump to draw attention to it.

[Resident Evil]

The ending of Lyger vs Sasuke is easily one of my best all time wrestling moments ever.

[jdw]

I dunno, to me it looks like he's just moving his head along with the bump to draw attention to it.

He's actually positioning his head and body and even arm upward expecting to catch Sasuke hitting the move. Of course he follows all of it downward as Sasuke blows the spot. There's also a beat where he looks down at Sasuke: "well, WTF...", then he goes into the clap.

 

Then frankly Sasauke blows the revised finish: horrible hurrcanrana. Liger is literally stomach (his) to back (Sasuke's) while Sasuke is flat on his stomach on the mat. It's not even that Liger took the spot on the top of his head: he took it on his *face*. After watching it live a few times, pause (or drag) it to 9:10 on the clip above. Liger has to roll himself over akwardly, without his shoulder even being down when the count starts... then is a master enough to start "struggling".

 

I'd forgotten how bad the actual redo was...

 

Pretty much the genius of Yamada covering for a pair of extremely shitty executons by Sasuke.

 

All of it washes away because Sasuke won. It was a massive upset, and Liger sold the shit out if it meaning something to him to lose.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

There are two things that for me are indispensable elements of good wrestling.

 

First, realism. I don't mean shoot-style. What I mean is this. If wrestling were real and you were trying to beat someone in a fight with wrestling moves, what would it look like? I want it to look like your main priority is winning the match, not impressing people with your athleticism. Matwork is a big part of this. In most matches I see nowadays, it's too fluid. Locking in a hold should be a struggle, not something that just happens with no discernible resistance on the part of the other person. And once it's locked in, the other person should be trying to break it or make the ropes or at least showing some signs of discomfort. I've been watching a fair amount of old joshi lately, and seeing them apply holds and then release them for no reason is driving me crazy.

 

Second, transitions. Structurally, most matches are pretty similar. What makes or breaks a match is how they connect the dots and move from one segment to the next. What causes a shift in momentum? I think that's the biggest problem with the WWE from an in-ring standpoint right now. The transitions absolutely suck. Most of the time, it's "heel applies chinlock, face powers out." Most of the rest of the time, it's "heel attempts high-risk maneuver for no reason, face rolls out of the way." This goes back to what I was saying about looking like you're trying to win a match. If these things backfire on you every single time, why would you keep doing them?

 

On a somewhat related note, I really hate simultaneous hot tags. They completely go against the logic of tag team wrestling. The face in peril gets beaten down for an extended period of time, but he hits one big move and they're back on equal footing? And why does the fresh face always come out on top over the fresh heel? I understand why this happens from a crowd heat standpoint. But "FIP gains upper hand, makes hot tag, fresh face goes to work on weakened heel" has the same effect and has the added advantage of being simpler and making more sense. I don't understand why anyone would throw out the old formula only to replace it with a different, stupider formula.