1989 to 1998

[Loss]

We have to be careful not to let "self conscious epic" creep into posts regularly as a phrase. We also need to clarify that not every attempt to have a great match is a self conscious epic. All wrestling is calculated, but it's the difference between the audience deciding something is a classic and being force fed one. Savage and Steamboat wanted to have a great match, but I wouldn't refer to WM3 as a wankfest at all. Even El-P, who coined the phrase "self conscious epic", would probably loathe that given his general problem with repeated phrases like "he plays his role well".

[Johnny Sorrow]

See, Ricky Steamboat was SUCH a Babyface that he realized that the best way to hurt Savage for what he had done to him was to take the title that meant more to Savage than anything.

 

And that's why manic Steamboat fans such as myself got so pissed off when he lost it right away to Honky. Looking back, I love the Honkytonk Man and his IC run, but at the time him beating Steamboat was a big factor in me going, "Ah, fuck this wrestling shit." and slowly stopping watching for a few years.

[Loss]

Yeah, they are good, but even still, the old "missing blood" thing bothers me in the same way that there wasn't blood in the Owen/Bret cage match.

 

Ricky should have wanted to inflict great physical harm equivalent or exceeding that which he had received first. I mean, Randy "ended" or "almost ended" Steamboat's career - let alone the implication that crushing the windpipe could result in an agonizing death i.e. suffocation. Steamer was a cookie-cutter face before the feud and was the same, honest-to-goodness swell babyface post "the big showdown" at WM3.

 

Watching the Mania match in context, in my opinion, greatly diminishes the overall package. But as a standalone match on mute, it is a shining example of two excellent performers...that practiced the match endlessly backstage i.e "self-conscious epic".

I thought this forever. I argued with people for years that it didn't make sense. Yes, Steamboat knowing the best way to hurt Savage would be to take his title was a logical point, but it was also detached from the storyline and implied that he didn't care about the injury. Rude/Steamboat showed a lot more fire than Steamboat/Savage. I think I said all of those things.

 

Then I saw the Toronto match and it changed things. The bloody revenge match had already gone around the horn by the time Wrestlemania hit. Steamboat had chances at the IC title and they had failed because he let his temper get the best of him. He wasn't going to let the same happen here.

 

That missing piece of the puzzle changed the way I looked at the match.

 

In a wrestling company with good announcers, they might have pointed out that we saw a calmer, cooler and more collected Steamboat than we had seen in recent months, and that perhaps failed attempts to beat Savage on shows all over the country has made him re-think his strategy. Maybe even adding that after talking with Steamboat earlier in the day, he said his game plan would now be to outwrestle Savage and take what's most important to him.

 

But that wasn't the Gorilla way. Not that I blame him entirely. That just wasn't the WWF way.

[Jingus]

We have to be careful not to let "self conscious epic" creep into posts regularly as a phrase. We also need to clarify that not every attempt to have a great match is a self conscious epic. All wrestling is calculated, but it's the difference between the audience deciding something is a classic and being force fed one. Savage and Steamboat wanted to have a great match, but I wouldn't refer to WM3 as a wankfest at all. Even El-P, who coined the phrase "self conscious epic", would probably loathe that given his general problem with repeated phrases like "he plays his role well".

I heartily agree with that. Had a phone conversation with an indy wrestler tonight which is surprisingly relevant to the subject of this discussion. I'll type up a full summary when I sober up tomorrow.

[jdw]

What Loss said. Toronto has the bloody revenge, is fantastic... and Steamer loses in the end by kind of screwing up with the temper. Mania is full circle: taking the title is what hurts Savage as he seems to value it over even Liz. Steamer knows how to "beat" Savage: he was beating Savage in the pre-injury match, and was beating Savage in the Injury Match... to the point that Savage lost his shit on Steamer. So Ricky goes back to what works, and lordy does Macho bring the kitchen sink in response to try to put Steamer away in the ring.

 

As much as the Animal stuff is annoying, in a sense it does also play into Randy's secondary storyline after the Tito feud was over: the bizzaro Animal-Liz plot, and Randy losing his shit over that as well. It's one of those shitty finishes that actually works in a WWF 80s way as Macho's glorious reign gets done in by his two enemies.

 

I've watched Mania several times since the Toronto match came to light, and it really re-holds up as a super fun match, and two workers who flat out have their shit down pat together.

 

I wouldn't pimp *every* match they had together. Their pre-feud match was good in spots, and formless in others. They had some matches once programed together that didn't quite nail it, rambled a bit, or just seemed tossed out. But the five above are all pretty fun, and when there's a 1986 & 1987 Yearbook would be easy keepers that I think would (along with some of the other feud angles / interviews / goofy spots) tell the tale of a really good feud with a start, "shocking" moment, terrific middle and great climax.

 

John

[smkelly]

We have to be careful not to let "self conscious epic" creep into posts regularly as a phrase. We also need to clarify that not every attempt to have a great match is a self conscious epic. All wrestling is calculated, but it's the difference between the audience deciding something is a classic and being force fed one. Savage and Steamboat wanted to have a great match, but I wouldn't refer to WM3 as a wankfest at all. Even El-P, who coined the phrase "self conscious epic", would probably loathe that given his general problem with repeated phrases like "he plays his role well".

I was being sarcastic, actually. The "Savage/Steamboat practiced their match = lameness" is really stupid. I mean, two guys practicing a fake match is stupid? And who cares if it is a self-conscious epic.

 

They practice because it is athletic and they worry about having a good match because the sport is rigged and they want to be a good wrestler i.e. entertainer, i.e. actor.

 

Pretty basic reasoning.

 

Yeah, they are good, but even still, the old "missing blood" thing bothers me in the same way that there wasn't blood in the Owen/Bret cage match.

 

Ricky should have wanted to inflict great physical harm equivalent or exceeding that which he had received first. I mean, Randy "ended" or "almost ended" Steamboat's career - let alone the implication that crushing the windpipe could result in an agonizing death i.e. suffocation. Steamer was a cookie-cutter face before the feud and was the same, honest-to-goodness swell babyface post "the big showdown" at WM3.

 

Watching the Mania match in context, in my opinion, greatly diminishes the overall package. But as a standalone match on mute, it is a shining example of two excellent performers...that practiced the match endlessly backstage i.e "self-conscious epic".

I thought this forever. I argued with people for years that it didn't make sense. Yes, Steamboat knowing the best way to hurt Savage would be to take his title was a logical point, but it was also detached from the storyline and implied that he didn't care about the injury. Rude/Steamboat showed a lot more fire than Steamboat/Savage. I think I said all of those things.

 

Then I saw the Toronto match and it changed things. The bloody revenge match had already gone around the horn by the time Wrestlemania hit. Steamboat had chances at the IC title and they had failed because he let his temper get the best of him. He wasn't going to let the same happen here.

 

That missing piece of the puzzle changed the way I looked at the match.

 

In a wrestling company with good announcers, they might have pointed out that we saw a calmer, cooler and more collected Steamboat than we had seen in recent months, and that perhaps failed attempts to beat Savage on shows all over the country has made him re-think his strategy. Maybe even adding that after talking with Steamboat earlier in the day, he said his game plan would now be to outwrestle Savage and take what's most important to him.

 

But that wasn't the Gorilla way. Not that I blame him entirely. That just wasn't the WWF way.

 

I bet they would have if it were Hogan instead of Steamboat, though.

 

It is annoying that they had an opportunity to really make something out of Steamboat, but chose not to. It seems as though they've dropped several catches down the field over a span of twenty-four years. I think that would be an awesome catch-all thread. Nothing but stories of how Vince & co have fucked up over the years. Because they clearly seemed to have WM as the end of the feud, and the violence in the feud demanded more violence to end it in my eyes. It's like TNA starting feuds with a Last Man Standing match. Just like you don't have a throwaway uncharacteristic brawl in the middle match of the feud and then back to Hindu cow calm at the very end. Sure, Steamer went full circle. But that circle fucking sucked. Fuck that Ninja crap, if he could break code once, he should be up to par, and Savage up the ante too by being just as violent because he knew he'd need to. Maybe have the match as a boot camp match or a street fight. Steamer had faught in a snake's pit match already, and probably street fights and No DQ's before. So why not on that night?

 

And then the fucking Honky Tonk Man? Really? The context of the title lineage fucks up the storyline lineage as in the feud between Savage/Steamboat, and Steamboat's character as well. So from a storyline perspective, he should have been a berserker turned semi or even full fledged heel because there was no way HTM would have beaten Savage or a strong heel for the title. But oh shit. If Steamer had gotten over as a heel, Hogan would have had a new "small" man to bump for him and to squash, which he did to Savage anyway. And the series with Flair in the NWA would never had happened! All joking aside, I really wonder what the hell Vince was thinking and for that matter, the head agent, which would have been Chief, right?

[Strummer]

was George Scott gone by WM 3? Because he usually put together all of Ricky's angles and feuds. Scott leaving the company hurt Steamboat's stock as he lost his one big supporter.

 

A quick check says Scott left in 1986 so yeah Ricky was flying solo

[ohtani's jacket]

I always thought it was a known fact that Steamboat had been DQ'ed in all the houseshow matches leading up to Wrestlemania III. I could never understand the criticism of that match from a booking standpoint, similar to the Bret/Owen cage match which didn't make sense to have any blood in the context of the feud.

 

1997 was arguably the best year in CMLL history in terms of what we have on tape. Either '97 or '90. '88-97 works for me.

[Loss]

I always thought it was a known fact that Steamboat had been DQ'ed in all the houseshow matches leading up to Wrestlemania III.

I didn't know this and I watched at the time. The announcers really should have mentioned it.

[ohtani's jacket]

They should have, but I'm struggling to think of an example from the same era where houseshows were acknowledged or referred to in any way aside from being broadcast material. There's also the chance that it wasn't some sort of intentional story progression. Perhaps it just fits when you watch the matches as a series. They do, however, do the early "Steamboat's got to be careful not to be DQ'ed" bit in Wrestlemania III.

[MJH]

Steamboat mentioned it in promos leading into the show. When they released the 20th Anniversary Edition (?) on DVD it had various build-up stuff for Hogan/Andre and Savage/Steamboat as extras. It doesn't show the matches (I think the only match is a Battle Royal involving Hogan/Andre) but Steamboat definitely brings it up on his build-up interviews. In that sense it was "known".

[jdw]

I always thought it was a known fact that Steamboat had been DQ'ed in all the houseshow matches leading up to Wrestlemania III. I could never understand the criticism of that match from a booking standpoint, similar to the Bret/Owen cage match which didn't make sense to have any blood in the context of the feud.

Here are the matches that aired on some form of TV, though obviously not nationally available. The Angle Match isn't listed since we all know how that ended.

 

Pre feud:

 

WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - December 7, 1985 (matinee)

Televised on NESN - included Gorilla Monsoon & Jesse Ventura on commentary:

Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Ricky Steamboat at 11:15 after Savage hit Steamboat in the head with a foreign object while in the middle of a back suplex from the ring apron; after the bout, Steamboat stole the weapon away from Savage and chased him from ringside with it (Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection)

 

WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - July 27, 1986

Featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary:

Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage via count-out after Savage failed a bodyslam on the floor, with Steamboat falling on top of him (Best of the WWF Vol. 9)

 

Feud:

 

WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - November 1, 1986 (announced as 9,057)

Televised on NESN - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary:

Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at 14:47 after Savage dove from the top rope to the outside and twisted his knee when Steamboat moved out of the way

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - November 8, 1986 (7,226)

Televised on the PRISM Network - included Dick Graham & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary:

Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage via count-out at 12:53 after Savage dove from the top rope to the outside and twisted his knee when Steamboat

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 10, 1987 (14,067)

Televised on the PRISM Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Dick Graham on commentary:

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Ricky Steamboat (sub. for Andre the Giant) via disqualification at 6:10 after Steamboat elbowed the referee as he attempted to get a steel chair away from him

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - February 14, 1987 (matinee) (19,416)

Televised on the PRISM Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Dick Graham on commentary:

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage pinned Ricky Steamboat at 7:42 with a roll over and using the tights for leverage

 

WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - February 15, 1987 (17,000)

Featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary with Billy Red Lyons subbing for Heenan during the Race / JYD and Harts / Bees matches

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Ricky Steamboat at 13:39 with a reverse roll up and grabbing the tights for leverage

 

The last one is the match a lot of us point to.

 

From Graham's site, there are also known pins in the New York area (02/09/87 Meadowlands), Columbus (02/10/87), Pittsburgh (02/13/87) and Chicago (02/20/87). Probably a few more, as things like the No DQ Match in Montreal would have needed Savage to pin him.

 

There wasn't a single finish to the match. Savage pinned him sometimes. Ricky won by DQ/COR sometimes. There were some DDQ/DCOR matches. The were times when Savage won by DQ/COR.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, that's not quite every houseshow match. Fair enough. Cheers.

[jdw]

Well, that's not quite every houseshow match. Fair enough. Cheers.

I think the point was:

 

"There wasn't a single finish to the match. Savage pinned him sometimes. Ricky won by DQ/COR sometimes. There were some DDQ/DCOR matches. The were times when Savage won by DQ/COR."

 

Unlike some feuds where one finish goes around the horn, this one wasn't terribly consisent in its finish.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Yes, I was acknowledging the point.