Fact or Fiction?

[Loss]

I think Vince would be happy to have his son-in-law headline every show for the rest of time. I don't think he's ever been as high on a wrestler as he is on HHH. With Austin, I can sort of understand the point of view of the writers on the subject.

 

I used to chat with a guy who said that he was a WWE writer online and I'm convinced he was. He explained a lot of things to me from their perspective and he's probably the same guy that talks to Scott Keith, considering that his book cited the exact same story told the exact same way. Anyway, according to him, here's what happened.

 

Austin was falling out of favor with the writers since coming back. There was a power struggle in 2001, because they'd lay out his matches one way, and he'd go out there and do something totally different. Austin v Angle at Summerslam '01 was supposed to have Angle dominating Austin the entire match, to a point where Austin was going to get DQd for attacking the ref. They were furious with him because he basically dominated Angle the entire match and then beat up the refs anyway. They thought it made Angle look weak. I personally think that match made him look very good, actually, since he kicked out of three stunners, but I can also see the other point of view.

 

The long-term plan for Austin, as of that fall, was for him to stay heel until HHH returned and drop the belt to him at Wrestlemania X-8. However, Austin got his first merchandise check around this time, and it was considerably less than what he was used to getting, and he started convincing Vince that he needed to turn immediately. Vince, a huge Austin supporter at the time, agreed, and the long-term booking was thrown out the window. The writers were upset because they felt they had the build to Mania nicely intact and that Austin sabotaged it because he was being selfish.

 

Austin then started assessing the talent pretty openly. His opinion? Angle was a great worker, but he didn't have the star quality needed to be a top guy. Jericho was a bad worker, but he had everything he needed to be a successful main eventer otherwise. The company was already pushing Jericho anyway, as a reward for taking the WCW guys under his wing during the inVasion, so this agreed with their vision.

 

Vengeance was laid out for Jericho to overcome Austin and Rock in the same night, defeating both with their own finishers. Rock had no problem with this at all, since he felt Jericho would be the guy who he could truly pass the torch to and wanted to do everything he could to build him up at that level. Austin scoffed at the idea and so a different finish was presented to him, which was the finish used at Vengeance.

 

The company felt that Austin's face turn, by February or so, was doing absolutely nothing to spike business and they were expecting things to turn around almost instantly since they had him back in the role the fans wanted to see him in. Whispering started and they came to the conclusion that Austin's best days were over and that he slowly needed to be phased out as a top guy, but that he still needed to be kept in the thick of things. It didn't help matters that Austin was rejecting so much material presented to him. Stevie Ray was supposed to be brought in for a one-shot role in late 2001 in a spot that eventually went to Big Boss Man, who Austin felt safer working with. It turned out that HHH got in Austin's ear and convinced him that Stevie Ray was a sloppy worker who would injure his neck. Austin also still didn't feel good about working with Booker and wanted to go into a program with 'Taker instead, which wasn't on the books at the time at all. Austin also refused to do the match with Hogan at Wrestlemania, then refused to put Hall over at Wrestlemania X-8, making the draft seem anti-climatic. He was supposed to sell a lot more for Jericho than he did at No Way Out, but insisted on taking over the match because he felt that there wasn't enough heat with Jericho in charge, and after the match, Vince actually called Jericho the worst champion they'd ever had and they couldn't get the belt off of him soon enough. Before that, with the poolside promo, the "I am not a joke" promo and his good series with Rock, Vince was finally warming up to him as a bonafide top guy.

 

Austin was brought back after his first walkout and all the bad blood was supposedly resolved. There were problems though, as they were trying to elevate RVD and Bradshaw, and Austin hated doing tags, so they couldn't put him in tags. They felt that because his character was such a loner, they couldn't use him to give anyone the rub because Austin would complain that it didn't fit him and turn it down.

 

Austin wanted to recreate Austin/McMahon with Austin/Flair, which the writers were strongly against, because they felt it was unfair to Flair to put him in that role and expect the same results. The writers started arguing that the whole boss v employer thing was played out, and wanted to take a different approach.

 

After the 05/20/02 RAW & 05/23/02 Smackdown (the week where RVD came close to defeating 'Taker and Edge and Angle faced off in the ladder match), the writing staffs were officially split. The first RAW from the new team of writers was the one where Eddy and RVD main evented in the ladder match. Austin had made the comment that Guerrero was the best worker in the company, and suggested working a program with him, which thrilled the writers, because they thought they could really make Eddy with this angle. Austin insisted that Debra be involved in storylines, but turned down every idea they had for her. They wanted to have her turn on Austin at KOTR and cost Austin the match, giving Eddy the win, and Austin refused the finish. He also didn't want her taking bumps or leaving his side, so they felt their hands were tied with what they could do. They were looking for some way, any way, to get some type of emotion out of Austin's character, where someone would actually get to him mentally in a way they never had before. That's what they hoped for with Eddy.

 

Anyway, that night on RAW, the finish happened with Austin coming down and Benoit turning and he and Guerrero leaving together, which Vince accepted as a solid new direction, but Austin immediately complained after the show that the beatdown made him look weak. They proceeded anyway, with Austin/Flair the next week as the main event, which made Austin feel good. He loved the match and felt it was the best he'd had in a long time, and wanted to continue something there, but the writers wanted Austin mainly feuding with Benoit and Guerrero at this point.

 

The planned finish for the RAW that Austin walked out on had him facing Brock Lesnar in the main event with Eddy Guerrero as the heel ref costing him the match. After the match, Austin would chase Eddy out of the arena, where Benoit, Flair and Arn Anderson would attack him in the parking lot. He'd fight them off, just in time to get to Eddy, who would have sped off in his car before Austin could get his hands on him. Austin felt he was getting beatdown too much and balked, and also felt the Lesnar match needed to be held off for PPV after Lesnar was built up. Everything that happened from there with him walking out is well-documented.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Austin also refused to do the match with Hogan at Wrestlemania

Is that why they never had a match?

 

I could literally never understand how someone could have both Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin under contract and not book them against each other on the biggest show of the year. It boggles my mind.

[Loss]

The crowd sided with Hogan at X-8. Austin probably knew that would happen, and didn't want to be embarrassed.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Austin also had animosity with Hogan over what happened with him in WCW. They finally worked it all out on the plane back from No Way Out in 2003.

[Loss]

Here's a question:

 

Pre-NWO, in the last part of 1995 and the first half of 1996, WCW kept teasing an upper-card push for Eddy Guerrero, but they never fully acted on it. Was there ever one in the works, and were they legitimately surprised when they surveyed their audience to find that Eddy was the most likable wrestler they had on the roster?

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

If one was in the works, then no doubt the size issue stopped it happening. Remember, Hogan had total power in regards to the main event scene, and he's a size freak.

 

And yes, they were shocked at Eddie being the most likable guy on the roster.

[Loss]

Also, from that same time period, was the Sting/Luger partnership supposed to go anywhere? Luger was basically playing a face and heel at the same time and it was very confusing, but it was all swept aside when the NWO came in.

[Loss]

Also, what's with the supposed heat Flair and Diamond Dallas Page had from when Flair booked in '94?

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Also, from that same time period, was the Sting/Luger partnership supposed to go anywhere? Luger was basically playing a face and heel at the same time and it was very confusing, but it was all swept aside when the NWO came in.

I would guess that it was going to lead to a heel turn by Luger and a singles match with Sting. When the NWO angle first began, it would probably have wound up leading to Luger turning heel on WCW, which was the first plan.

 

The Flair - DDP heat I'm not sure on, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was down to Page not liking his push, and his bitching to Eric not getting anything done about it at the time.

[Guest Some Guy]

It turned out that HHH got in Austin's ear and convinced him that Stevie Ray was a sloppy worker who would injure his neck.

Think that might have had anything to do with Stevie Ray using HHH's finisher in WCW?

 

BTW, Loss that was one of the best posts I've ever read. I hadn't heard a lot of that story. It seems like Austin was doing an alwful lot of complaining and not a lot of helping, even more so than I thought.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

It turned out that HHH got in Austin's ear and convinced him that Stevie Ray was a sloppy worker who would injure his neck.

Think that might have had anything to do with Stevie Ray using HHH's finisher in WCW?

 

More to do with the fact that Ray fucked the move up with Rick Martel, injuring Martel's neck and forcing him to retire. Ray being terrible in the ring didn't help.

[Guest Some Guy]

I seem to remember Martel blowing out his knee, not hurting his neck. Maybe he did both.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

He injured his neck in February of 1998, and in his first or second match back from recovering in July of that year, Stevie injured him again.

[Guest Alfdogg]

Hunter's reasoning for ending the storyline in the worst possible manner was that nobody would buy that a tough guy like himself could lose a woman to someone like Angle.

Something tells me HHH hasn't had too many women in his life.

[Guest Some Guy]

Well, he had Chyna. She's a woman of sorts.

[Guest Alfdogg]

Ok, fact or fiction, HHH refused to job to Goldberg at SSlam 03.

[Guest Some Guy]

That has to be fact. They booked that whole match as though Goldberg was going to win right until the stupid sledgehammer finish and the Evolution beatdown. Goldberg was finally getting over the way he should during that match and they beat him, presumably just to make sure that he didn't draw for them.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Ok, fact or fiction, HHH refused to job to Goldberg at SSlam 03.

Fiction, sort of. Hunter didn't so much refuse to job to Goldberg at Summerslam, as much as he talked his way out of it. Hunter's reasoning for the screwjob finish was that it would mean more if Goldberg was chasing Hunter for the title. While that is true for the most part, with Goldberg, and Hunter for that matter, standard booking pattern's don't always work out for the best. With Goldberg, it's because him losing so early takes most of the steam out his character, and with Hunter it's because it just reaffirms people's belief that he's above everyone else.

[Marty]

The company was already pushing Jericho anyway, as a reward for taking the WCW guys under his wing during the inVasion, so this agreed with their vision.

What exactly did Jericho do when he "took them under his wing"? Showed them the "WWE style"? Taught them the proper backstage etiquette, like how to shake Droz's hand? Anything notable?

 

Nice post covering Austin's descent, by the way.

[Loss]

The plan for Summerslam '03 was to put the belt on Jericho if HHH needed time off, thinking that they needed to wait on Goldberg. So Goldberg wouldn't have won anyway.

 

Jericho basically showed the WCW guys the differences in WWF style versus the style they were taught, and tried to help them adjust. They came to him for advice and to ask questions, that sort of thing.

[Guest Some Guy]

The plan for Summerslam '03 was to put the belt on Jericho if HHH needed time off, thinking that they needed to wait on Goldberg. So Goldberg wouldn't have won anyway.

 

Why Jericho? He had just jobbed clean to Goldberg in June and hadn't been in the world title picture for months. I know he got a fluke win over Nash in the hair match but that isn't exactly preping someone for a World Title win. At SS 03 it was clearly the right time to put the belt on Goldberg. I think if they put the belt on him and booked him properly then he would have drawn more money that Jericho would have, at least at that time.

 

With Goldberg, IMO there should really be no holding off. He got over because they kept pushing him stronger and stronger. He won the US title with no buold up or feud and the World Title the same way. With him you need to push him hard and put the belt on him or you aren't going to get your money's worth. You have to strike while the iron is hot and they didn't and I imagine they blame Goldberg for their failure. He did exactly what one would expect from him in his time in WWE. If they expected a great all around talent then they didn't know who they were signing.

[Loss]

The plan for Summerslam '03 was to put the belt on Jericho if HHH needed time off, thinking that they needed to wait on Goldberg. So Goldberg wouldn't have won anyway.

 

Why Jericho? He had just jobbed clean to Goldberg in June and hadn't been in the world title picture for months. I know he got a fluke win over Nash in the hair match but that isn't exactly preping someone for a World Title win. At SS 03 it was clearly the right time to put the belt on Goldberg. I think if they put the belt on him and booked him properly then he would have drawn more money that Jericho would have, at least at that time.

Actually, they were having him lose matches and look weak so he'd have challengers in the event that he won the belt. If you notice, recent years have had guys that are about to get the belt do a lot of jobbing (look at Brock Lesnar in '03) because the company mentality is that that's how you create future challengers. That makes sense in theory, but Jericho was never established enough for that to work with him. It's also why Michaels pinned Benoit in February of '04, even though that feud never really went anywhere.

 

It was more process of elimination -- Nash wasn't over, Orton wasn't ready, Michaels was still recovering from the stench of his previous title run and they were trying to maximize Goldberg's chase for the belt. If HHH was hurt, that left Jericho as the best candidate.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

I hadn't heard about the Jericho plan before, so I e-mailed Meltzer about it. He said there was such a plan, but it wasn't a definitive one.

[Loss]

I believe he mentioned it in the 08/11/03 Observer, but I'm not sure about that date. It was the week he jobbed to RVD and got powerbombed by Kevin Nash and challenged him to the hair v hair match all in the same night. I believe the show was in Ottowa.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

I checked the Observers for around that time, and there is no mention of this at all.