Matt D Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 What? Look Bryan is smart enough and good enough and working with the agents and Brock and Heyman and whoever, I think they could absolutely put together a match where Bryan wins and wins cleanly. I don't think they'd WANT to do that, but it's completely and utterly doable. I mean I'd have SOME problem with Hornswaggle going over Lesnar, but that's about my limit. A guy with the background as Bryan? Absolutely. You could do it a half dozen ways. Speed v strength, Skill v size, overconfident brock, extreme bodypart working, Brock being rusty at pro wrestling, DB cheating at every turn like Flair, Or just sheer stubborn fighting spirit by DB leading to Brock getting frustrated and making a mistake. If people can go over Big Show they can go over Lesnar. He's not some kind of holy godking because he spent time really hitting people in the face. Wrestling is fiction and it's all in the presentation and build.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Correction: "I don't care to see", not "I wouldn't buy". It's only because of how they're currently pushed, not because of the size difference. If WWE had plans to shoot Bryan to the moon, great! Bring on the win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I don't see how Bryan vs. Lesnar is less plausible than Rey Mysterio vs. every single heavyweight. EDIT: Bryan is being pushed as a legit asskicker and submission master, so there's not that much of a disparity between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 It would be difficult to pull off though. Rey is portrayed as quicker than most heavyweights, obviously, so he can get to the ropes or top turnbuckle to do damage to his opponents. Danielson is a little different. His game is capitalizing on mistakes and wearing people down with holds. I think it would be harder for him to get over on top of Brock like that. Not saying it's impossible though. Edit: I mean back in Brock's first run, they could barely book Benoit over Brock. And this is after establishing Benoit is arguably the greatest technical wrestler of that time. And Benoit was slightly bigger than Danielson. And Brock less experienced then than he would in theory be now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I have the opposite view. A submission master is much more credible against a larger opponent than an acrobat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Look, Brock was established as being able to fling a referee one handed back in the ring from the arena floor. He was established as being too strong and heavy for Cena, who is known as being able to lift giants or giants and some (Show and Edge in an Attitude Adjustment at the same time?), that Brock could just pound into the mat. In normal circumstance, what Rey has over others is that he can fling himself into Brock and escape serious shit situations quicker. Get Brock on top of Danielson JUST once, and you're seeing blood pudding spilled all over the mat. And I think even if Danielson manages to latch onto Brock's body parts for a submission attempt, Brock would be way too strong as to just deadlift him and smashing him into the mat or the post to shake him off. If Triple H can lift the Undertaker off the stairs while in the Hell's Gate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 If people can go over Big Show they can go over Lesnar. He's not some kind of holy godking because he spent time really hitting people in the face. Wrestling is fiction and it's all in the presentation and build.. Right, and in the pro-wrestling context they've established with Brock he's never lost to anybody smaller than him other than Eddie, who was completely jacked up at the time, and it took a Goldberg spear and incredible luck for Eddie to win that match. Brock has dominated guys like Mysterio and the Hardys, and D-Bry has not been presented as superior to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 And to steal UFC terminology, styles make fights. It's plausible that Cena can beat Brock, and that Punk can beat Cena, and that Bryan can beat Punk....but that doesn't mean Punk could beat Brock, or that Bryan could beat Cena. MMA math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Brock also lost to Kurt Angle. By submission, in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Angle is an Olympic wrestler... who's also considerably bigger than Danielson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 It doesn't matter, because it's fake. If the crowd reacted to an implausible size mismatch by booing and showering the ring with garbage whenever a tiny guy beat a huge one, that'd be one thing. But they don't. They never do. They always believe it. Wrestling audiences have no more of a problem buying that Mysterio can beat Big Show than movie audiences have a problem believing that action heroes can beat up much larger villains. So why is this even a complaint worth talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Considerably? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Considerably? Angle has a couple inches on Bryan, and when he was wrestling Brock he was probably in the 220-230 range. Bryan is maybe 185. That's a big difference in size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 It doesn't matter, because it's fake. If the crowd reacted to an implausible size mismatch by booing and showering the ring with garbage whenever a tiny guy beat a huge one, that'd be one thing. But they don't. They never do. They always believe it. Wrestling audiences have no more of a problem buying that Mysterio can beat Big Show than movie audiences have a problem believing that action heroes can beat up much larger villains. So why is this even a complaint worth talking about? IIRC Mysterio never beat Big Show....in fact I remember their most famous match ending with Show strapping him to a gurney and swinging him into the ringpost like he was a wiffle ball bat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Considerably? I've met both Danielson circa last year and Angle in his WWF/E heyday, and I can say, yes. Considerably. Angle looked to have a legitimate 40 pound advantage over on Danielson. Angle was really around 215-220 whereas Danielson was around 175-180. Of course, Danielson is miraculously adding weight through a rigorous workout regimen but he was still smaller than Angle. Then again, Angle was also a gold medal winning wrestler. What REALLY is Danielson's claim to fame? Again, to bring up Benoit, he was roughly the same size as Angle but was not put over Brock as much as Angle, because all he was is a "fake" professional wrestler, albeit however good he was at it. Brock is a 260+ pound beast who was a NCAA heavyweight champion and a former WWE champion before adding a MMA heavyweight title to his resume. In what world is Danielson ever really going to be able to compete with that? Yes, wrestling is fake, and I would not have a problem with a match between Brock and Danielson where Danielson somehow won, but that would require for me to truly suspend my sense of disbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yes, wrestling is fake, and I would not have a problem with a match between Brock and Danielson where Danielson somehow won, but that would require for me to truly suspend my sense of disbelief. And Rey beating Brock with gymnastics wouldn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yes, wrestling is fake, and I would not have a problem with a match between Brock and Danielson where Danielson somehow won, but that would require for me to truly suspend my sense of disbelief. And Rey beating Brock with gymnastics wouldn't? No it absolutely would. I DO have a problem with Rey as well, but he has had a LONG career of wrestling huge guys and it's understandable he knows how to strategize against them. Look at his match with Kevin Nash in WCW. It was a banana peel victory for Rey but that's the sort of thing I would expect for him to beat someone like Brock. It would be hard for me to envision a banana peel situation with Danielson, because again, Brock would just lift Danielson off the mat while in a hold and shake him off. If all Danielson would do is roll him up in a flash pin, perhaps, but that's not his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Correction: "I don't care to see", not "I wouldn't buy". It's only because of how they're currently pushed, not because of the size difference. If WWE had plans to shoot Bryan to the moon, great! Bring on the win! That makes a big difference. It's okay that you don't care to see it. That's understandable. I just think that a match could be put together well enough and smartly enough to make it work. That is the JOY of pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 We keep returning to the "how much does size matter?" discussion on this board, don't we? Time for a new thread, methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 My question about booking Brock down the road, is who else on the roster is going to take the kind of ass kicking that Cena did? Having Brock come in, first match back, working the way he worked, establishes a precedent. The match was entirely Lesnar pummeling Cena with strikes, and it was stiff as hell to make it look real. Is Randy Orton going to buy off on that the way Cena did? Will CM Punk work that kind of match? Is he just going to go back to using his old offense? I don't know how you can reconcile Brock Lesnar the monster from this match with Brock Lesnar the professional wrestler he'd really need to be to be able to book again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Orton let Mark Henry kick his ass for months, worked even with Cody Rhodes and lost to Barrett. I think he will have no problem getting his ass kicked by Brock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'm not talking about putting him over, I mean literally taking the beating that Brock was giving Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 HHH won't work that kind of match, that's for sure. He's the guy who buried Jericho and RVD for working too stiff and I'm sure Goldberg and others too. His mentality is stiff = can't work, not stiff = heightened realism Just look at his brawl with Lesnar the night after Backlash. Lesnar was clearly taking something off his punches after weeks after some of the most realistic brawling we've seen in years with Cena. HHH the super-worker in his own mind is going to drag Lesnar down into a mediocre "WWE main event" style match, then blame Lesnar when that happens. The only hope is that maybe Lesnar just doesn't give a fuck and forces HHH into his match, but I think he'll just go along with what HHH does. Cena was obviously way into his stuff with Brock and wanted to make everything as good as it could be, everything HHH has done feels like he's phoning it in. And I do think HHH will lose, which a lot of people don't at this point, but it won't be remotely clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 HHH won't work that kind of match, that's for sure. He's the guy who buried Jericho and RVD for working too stiff and I'm sure Goldberg and others too. His mentality is stiff = can't work, not stiff = heightened realism Which is funny considering that he and Undertaker worked ridiculously hard to get HHH to bleed hardaway at this year's Wrestlemania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I thought it wasn't so much that Jericho and RVD were stiff as they were stiff while looking like they were barely touching the other guy, which is the worst possible combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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