French catch

[David Mantell]

Some more thoughts on the Herzog episode - it shows the different attitudes between the UK and France to their respective working classes and their culture.  Britain celebrates its prole culture and puts it all over TV and exports it to the rest of the world while the French try to hid theirs out of site, living in the HLMs out in the distant banlieus, out of sight and out of mind of the cultured world of wine and art and phlosophy France likes to project to the rest of the world.  (And out of sight and out of mind they stay, at least until they start having a riot ... )

So maybe it's not a surprise that a former mountaineer turned Gaullist sports minister would turn round and demand "what is this vulgar (expletive) doing on our Television?"  whereas in Britain it was seen as a more salt of the earth thing - until the mid 80s when ITV started rebranding to yuppies with an East Coast US idea of what the good life was-and even then they had to put a lot of time and effort into sabotaging the viewing figures to get away with the cancellation (and if the WWF boom had occured a year earlier or the contracts run a year longer, that would have been all blown out of the water.)

[ohtani's jacket]

There's a difference between taking a break and being off air completely. When I went through the French archives, I didn't get a sense that this was a sport that was continuously broadcast for 30 years. The footage from the 70s onward feels extremely scattershot, and I don't think it's ever been fully explained what that retrospective show was about with Roger Delaporte and friends sitting in a theatre watching old black and white matches. Some of the footage has a very public broadcasting station feel to it, though I obviously don't know the details. It didn't particularly bother me as there were a lot of swimming pool matches and precious little of the Catch I liked outside of the odd tag match or two. 

[David Mantell]

(Add snobbery against wrestling - of course America is a far worse place even than France for this, with wrestling having been seen for decades as irredeemable prolefeed- hence the attitude of people like Kevin Dunn and even some of Vince's hangups about even the word "wrestling" etc.)

[David Mantell]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:35 AM, David Mantell said:

• Can someone explain to me - clearly and from a neutral perspective - what the current venemous feud between FFCP/Marc Mercier and Wrestling Stars/FleshGodon/Jacky Richard  is actually all about?  Promotional rivalries are one thing but neither Max Crabtree and Brian Dixon nor Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff ever took things this far  - refusing to speak to journalists who talk to the other side and each acusing the other of being conmen and crooks.

What I know so far about this ^^^ :
https://www.vice.com/fr/article/z4jm59/le-catch-francais-tente-de-ressusciter

 

FRENCH ORIGINAL:

A l'époque donc, les catcheurs ont une culture 100% sportive, dont ils vont peu à peu s'éloigner lorsque les managers réalisent qu'il y a plus d'argent à se faire en créant des personnages, sur le modèle du catch actuel. C'est à ce moment que les « Bourreau de Béthune » et autres « Ange Blanc » commencent à faire rêver les foules sous la férule de plusieurs promoteurs fortunés. Marc Mercier démythifie l'époque à sa manière : cash et directe. « Les matchmakers travaillaient au noir et s'en mettaient plein les poches. Ils se faisaient des milliards au black, on les appelait la mafia du catch, balance l'ancien athlète. Mon père a mené 8 ans de lutte sociale de 1968 à 1976 pour que les catcheurs aient enfin un statut et soient déclarés. Il a obtenu qu'on soit rattachés au régime des intermittents en 1976. Les matchmakers ont écopé d'amendes énormes, de 800 millions à 5 milliards de francs selon les cas. »

« Après la guerre contre les télés, ils ont arrêté de nous diffuser, c'est là qu'on s'est cassé la gueule » - Marc Mercier, président de la FFCP

Toujours selon Marc Mercier, cette avancée sociale a malheureusement contribué à faire plonger le catch français : « Mon père a aussi lancé une guerre contre Georges de Caunes et les télés qui payaient au black. Ils ont arrêté de nous diffuser, c'est là qu'on s'est cassé la gueule. A ce moment, le catch français a baissé pavillon, les Etats-Unis et la WWE ont repris le flambeau et la Wrestling Stars (WS) a récupéré le reste », déplore-t-il sans rien regretter de l'action menée par Mercier père. Et c'est là que les choses se compliquent, puisqu'entre Marc Mercier et la WS, ce n'est pas vraiment l'histoire d'amour puisqu'elle concurrence sérieusement la FFCP de Mercier fils.

Sérieusement, et illégalement à en croire Marc Mercier : « Ils déclarent quedalle, ils acceptent des galas à moindre frais pour gagner quelques centaines d'euros. C'est ce genre d'institution qui tue la profession. Un catcheur doit donc avoir un contrat de travail, une fiche de paye, une retraite, comme tout le monde. Mais eux, ils jouent sur leur statut associatif de la loi de 1901 pour contourner ça. » Concrètement, Marc Mercier accuse certains promoteurs d'enfreindre la loi poussée par son père, qui définit les catcheurs comme des artistes souscrivant au régime des intermittents. Cette loi « stipule que le catch ne peut être organisé sous le couvert d'une association dépendante de la loi de 1901 », affirme-t-il, et c'est bien par là qu'il compte passer pour permettre au catch de se développer à nouveau. Mais rien n'est gagné : « Je suis le seul à gueuler ! J'ai été reçu par le gouvernement sous Sarkozy, mais sous le quinquennat de Hollande, personne ne m'a écouté, ils n'en avaient rien à foutre. Je vais faire bouger les choses, entamer un deuxième mouvement social dans la lignée de celui initié par mon père. Il faut qu'on arrête d'accepter le proxénétisme, parce que là, c'est ni plus ni moins que ça. »

De fait, le catch français est embarqué dans une spirale négative qui l'éloigne toujours plus de sa gloire passée : aucun revenu télé et un financement toujours plus maigre qui poussent les acteurs du milieu à accepter des tarifs très bas pour des spectacles à la qualité toujours plus discutable, parfois sans assurance en cas de blessure ou sans cotiser pour leur retraite. Fatalement, les structures plus sérieuses, qui déclarent leur activité et facturent leur prestation, sont bien plus chères que les autres et perdent tous leurs marchés. Ce que Marc Mercier résume d'une autre manière : « On est en train de mourir à peut feu à cause de petits esprits qui ne voient pas plus loin que le bout de leur bite et qui lèchent le cul des proxénètes. Quand on est jeune, on ne pense jamais qu'on sera vieux un jour. On s'en branle de cotiser pour sa retraite du moment qu'on peut toucher un billet supplémentaire au black pour flamber le samedi soir. »

Si Marc Mercier ne cache pas son amertume, c'est qu'il a l'impression de se battre pour l'ensemble de la profession, alors qu'il ne reçoit pas un accueil très favorable du côté de la WS. C'est le moins qu'on puisse dire, puisqu'entre les deux, le dialogue est rompu depuis bien longtemps. Pire, impossible de parler à une partie sans se mettre l'autre à dos. Ainsi, lorsque nous avons tenté de contacter "Flesh Gordon", directeur sportif de la WS et son bras droit, l'ancien catcheur "Monsieur Jacky", reconverti arbitre et entraîneur à l'école de Faremoutiers (école de catch affiliée à la WS, ndlr), chacun a eu une réponse bien à lui. Le premier s'est montré étonné, surpris de découvrir les critiques de Mercier : « Je le connais depuis les années 80, on s'entendait bien. Ça doit faire douze ans que je ne l'ai pas vu, je n'ai jamais entendu parler de toute ces histoires. Je suis un catcheur, pas un homme d'institutions. »

« En France, le catch, on a l'impression que c'est la fête du slip et de la saucisse. »  Célian Varini, commentateur sportif et spécialiste du catch

Le second s'est montré plus véhément, voire lapidaire : « On m'a dit de ne pas vous parler puisque vous êtes allés voir la FFCP. Mercier, c'est un escroc, un voyou, tout ce qu'on veut. Il balance tout le monde, il a que ça à faire. Son père et lui ils nous ont balancés aux impôts pendant 40 ans. Moi je dis les choses, je mens pas, il nous empêche de vivre de notre métier avec ses conneries. » A ces accusations, Marc Mercier répond volontiers : « Jacky Richard, c'est un fraudeur de première catégorie qui touche sa retraite grâce à la lutte engagée par mon père et qui me chie dans les bottes aujourd'hui. Il me déverse des cuvettes de merde sur la tête tous les matins. Ce sont des accusations en l'air faites par des mecs qui perdent leurs procès. » Insultes, accusations et petites phrases, le monde du catch français n'a pas perdu l'habitude du trash-talking et de la catchphrase. Malheureusement, tout ceci ne se déroule pas sur un ring, et reste en petit comité.

C'est bien ce qui attriste Célian Varini, un autre observateur avisé du catch français. A 35 ans, après être passé par une flopée de chaînes télé, il est devenu l'un des commentateurs les plus calés sur ce sport qu'il a découvert pendant son enfance passée en Floride, émerveillé par les exploits de Hulk Hogan et les premières éditions de Wrestlemania. Autant dire que le retour en France a été un choc, qui le pousse à dresser un bilan sans concession de la situation actuelle : « Je me souviens de la première fois que j'ai vu du catch français, ça devait être en 1992, sur Télématin. J'avais l'habitude du décorum américain, des mecs très musclés, de jolies gonzesses, un spectacle son et lumière devant des milliers de personnes… Là j'ai vu deux grassouillets de l'âge de mon grand-père en train de se chamailler dans un gymnase vide. C'était le truc le plus triste du monde. En France, le catch, on a l'impression que c'est la fête du slip ou de la saucisse. 95% du temps, ce sont des gens à la condition physique et au niveau athlétique pitoyable qui se produisent devant 40 personnes. Vu qu'il n'y a aucun contrôle ni aucune régulation, il y a des dizaines et des dizaines de structures. Parmi elles, il n'y en a même pas dix qui sont sérieuses, et encore, quand je dis sérieuses, je veux dire qu'elles arrivent à organiser plus de deux galas par an. Quand ils voient ça, je comprends que des anciens comme Mercier soient énervés. »

Face à la guerre des chefs qui déchire le catch français, Célian est partagée entre la tristesse de voir la discipline qu'il aime tant toucher le fond, et l'amusement, tant la situation touche parfois presque au comique : « Le catch c'est un milieu tout petit où tout le monde se bouffe le nez. Ce qui est vraiment triste là-dedans, c'est qu'ils se battent pour très peu de gloire et très peu d'argent. Ils s'écharpent pour être le numéro un de la fête du village, ça a un côté presque pathétique. Les Mercier, Flesh Gordon et autres, ce sont des anciens amis devenus meilleurs ennemis. Monsieur Jacky par exemple, il est là-dedans depuis ses 12 ans et demi. Il a jamais rien connu d'autre. Si vous lui enlevez sa petite aura de catcheur, vous lui enlevez tout vous comprenez ? »

Dans ce marigot où s'entremêlent guerres d'égos, luttes symboliques et frustrations,...

*************************************
AUTO TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH:

At the time, therefore, wrestlers had a 100% sporting culture, from which they gradually moved away when managers realized that there was more money to be made by creating characters, on the model of wrestling. current. It was at this time that the "Bourreau de Béthune" and other "White Angels" began to make the crowds dream under the rule of several wealthy promoters. Marc Mercier demystifies the era in his own way: cash and direct. “The matchmakers were moonlighting and filling their pockets. They made billions black, they were called the wrestling mafia, balances the former athlete.My father led 8 years of social struggle from 1968 to 1976 so that wrestlers finally had a status and were declared. He obtained that we be attached to the intermittent regime in 1976. The matchmakers were fined huge, from 800 million to 5 billion francs depending on the case. »

"After the war against TVs, they stopped broadcasting us, that's when we broke our necks" - Marc Mercier, president of the FFCP

Still according to Marc Mercier, this social advance unfortunately contributed to sinking French wrestling: “ My father also launched a war against Georges de Caunes and the TVs which paid black. They stopped broadcasting us, that's where we broke our necks. At that time, French wrestling lowered its flag, the United States and WWE took up the torch and Wrestling Stars (WS) recovered the rest, "he laments without regretting the action taken by Mercier. father. And that's where things get complicated, since between Marc Mercier and the WS, it's not really the love story since it seriously competes with the FFCP of Mercier son.

Seriously, and illegally according to Marc Mercier: “They declare quedalle, they accept galas at a lower cost to earn a few hundred euros. It is this kind of institution that kills the profession. A wrestler must therefore have a work contract, a pay slip, a pension, like everyone else. But them, they play on their associative status of the law of 1901 to circumvent that. Concretely , Marc Mercier accuses certain promoters of breaking the law pushed by his father, which defines wrestlers as artists subscribing to the intermittent regime. This law “stipulates that wrestling cannot be organized under the cover of an association dependent on the law of 1901”, he says, and it is through this that he intends to go to allow wrestling to develop again. But nothing is won: " I'm the only one yelling!" I was received by the government under Sarkozy, but under Hollande's five-year term, no one listened to me, they didn't give a damn. I'm going to shake things up, start a second social movement in line with the one initiated by my father. We have to stop accepting pimping, because there, it's neither more nor less than that. »

In fact, French wrestling is embarked on a negative spiral which keeps it further and further away from its past glory: no television income and ever more meager funding which pushes the players in the field to accept very low prices for quality shows. always more questionable, sometimes without insurance in the event of injury or without contributing to their retirement. Inevitably, the more serious structures, which declare their activity and invoice their service, are much more expensive than the others and lose all their markets. What Marc Mercier sums up in another way: "We are dying fast because of little minds who see no further than the tip of their dick and who lick pimps' ass. When you're young, you never think you'll ever be old. You don't give a damn about contributing to your retirement as long as you can get an extra black ticket to burn on Saturday night. »

If Marc Mercier does not hide his bitterness, it is because he has the impression of fighting for the whole of the profession, whereas he does not receive a very favorable welcome from the side of the WS. It's the least we can say, since between the two, the dialogue has been broken for a long time. Worse, impossible to talk to one party without alienating the other. Thus, when we tried to contact "Flesh Gordon", sports director of the WS and his right arm, the former wrestler "Monsieur Jacky", reconverted referee and coach at the school of Faremoutiers (wrestling school affiliated to the WS , editor's note) , everyone had their own answer. The first was astonished, surprised to discover Mercier's criticisms:"I've known him since the 80s, we got along well. It must be twelve years since I've seen him, I've never heard of all these stories. I'm a wrestler, not a man of institutions. »

“In France, wrestling feels like it's a celebration of underpants and sausage. »Célian Varini , sports commentator and wrestling specialist

The second was more vehement, even lapidary: “I was told not to speak to you since you went to see the FFCP. Mercier is a crook, a thug, whatever you want. He rocks everyone, he has that to do. He and his dad taxed us for 40 years. I say things, I don't lie, he prevents us from living from our profession with his bullshit. “ To these accusations, Marc Mercier responds willingly: “Jacky Richard is a first-class fraudster who receives his retirement thanks to the fight started by my father and who shits in my boots today. He dumps bowls of shit on my head every morning. These are empty accusations made by guys who lose their cases. »Insults, accusations and little phrases, the French wrestling world has not lost the habit of trash-talking and catchphrase. Unfortunately, all this does not take place in a ring, and remains in a small committee.

This is what saddens Célian Varini, another wise observer of French wrestling. At 35, after going through a slew of TV channels, he has become one of the most savvy commentators on the sport he discovered during his childhood spent in Florida, amazed by the exploits of Hulk Hogan and the first editions of Wrestlemania. Suffice to say that the return to France was a shock, which pushes him to draw up an uncompromising assessment of the current situation:“I remember the first time I saw French wrestling, it must have been in 1992, on Télématin. I was used to American decorum, very muscular guys, pretty chicks, a sound and light show in front of thousands of people... There I saw two plump guys my grandfather's age bickering in an empty gymnasium. It was the saddest thing in the world. In France, wrestling feels like it's a panty or sausage party. 95% of the time it's people of pitiful physical condition and athleticism performing in front of 40 people. Since there is no control or regulation, there are dozens and dozens of structures. Among them, there are not even ten who are serious, and again, when I say serious, I mean they manage to organize more than two galas a year. When they see that, I understand that veterans like Mercier are upset. »

Faced with the war of bosses that is tearing French wrestling apart, Célian is torn between sadness at seeing the discipline he loves so much hit rock bottom, and amusement, as the situation sometimes almost borders on comedy: "Le wrestling is is a very small environment where everyone puffs their noses. What's really sad about this is that they're fighting for very little fame and very little money. They tear themselves apart to be the number one of the village festival, it has an almost pathetic side. The Merciers, Flesh Gordons and others are old friends turned arch-enemies. Mr Jacky for example, he has been in there since he was 12 and a half years old. He never knew anything else. If you take away his little aura of a wrestler, you take everything away from him, you understand? »

In this backwater where ego wars, symbolic struggles and frustrations intertwine, ... (goes on to profile Tom LaRuffa)

[David Mantell]

But can anyone else provide anymore insight into the dispute? It's no good asking either side directly - all they seem to do is froth at the mouth about how the other lot are an evil bunch of sleazy crooks. Which is not really helpful to making sense of it all.

[Phil Lions]

I just realized that I never got around to posting this article here, and I think it's a pretty interesting one. Came across it earlier this year. It's from February 1960.

----------

Phantoms and Angels. Professional Wrestling Show Hits Europe With Same Old Villain vs. Good Guy Theme.

By ROBERT DALEY
New York Times News Service

PARIS - The pieces moving about the chessboard of European wrestling are strange and sometimes horrible. Among them are the Strangler, The Masked Hangman, The Phantom. The Phantom is entirely garbed in black except for the outline of a skeleton in white on his tunic. When the lights go out the black tunic disappears and the skeleton, iridescent, glows in the dark. The audience gasps. The opponent, an ordinary man, recoils in dread as the Phantom leaps upon him. A ferocious struggle ensues, an ordinary man wrestling in the dark with writhing glowing bones. The audience cries out its horror. Soon the lights go back on. The audience wipes its brow and releases a profound sigh. The eerie spectacle witnessed had been after all only a wrestling match. It seems relieved to realize this.

Proprietor of most of these "inhuman" wrestlers is a small gentle 52-year-old Frenchman named Alex Goldstein. Goldstein today has something like 200 wrestlers and controls about 50 arenas throughout Western Europe. But until Dec 8 1958 he had been promoting wrestling for 14 years with extraordinary success. On that day a "colossus" entered the ring of an arena here, his face hidden by a black mask. He shook his fist at the crowd, growled at the referee, then leaped upon his opponent and rabbit-punched him to the canvas. Since the opponent, still wearing his bathrobe and looking the other way, had not been prepared for so unsporting an assault, the audience got the idea. This "Homme Masque" was a villain.

One masked man proved so popular that Goldstein soon launched a second, this one the goodest guy Europe has ever seen - The White Angel. The first match between the two provided the biggest wrestling gage in Goldstein's long career.

Goldstein needed no further encouragement. There now are about a dozen masked grapplers in the rings of Europe and they have been followed by all manner of other freaks. One of the hits of last season was the Human Beast, the man with the skin of a goat. Barefooted, tattooed all over and wearing only a goatskin, he was a pretty repulsive sight. However he has been outdone this season by Quasimodo, the hunchback of Notre Dame. Quasimodo was a miner in the Pyrenees who had done some wrestling. He had all his teeth yanked except one. He dressed in sackcloth, and came to Paris to see Goldstein. Wild-haired, his one tooth protruding over his lower lip, he is a great success now. He is identified on posters as "powerful as he is horrible". However, he does not belong to Goldstein's stable. "I turned him down", Goldstein commented. "Too repulsive. Most of your fans are women. They want to see real men. A colossus like the Homme Masque, 6 feet 4, 260 pounds. An American. I can't tell you his name. He wrestles over there under his true name without a mask".

Since Dec 8 1958 Goldstein's business has quadrupled. There are four times as many spectators, four times as many matches, four times as much receipts. The more popular members of his stable now work every other night and earn more than $50,000 a year. Goldstein feels he can keep coming up with new wrinkles forever. "All it takes is a little imagination", he says. "But the presentation is only part of it. The most important thing is that the man be a good wrestler. Someone like Gorgeous George for instance. All he had was presentation. He was nearly 40 years old and he was a bad wrestler."

Goldstein is bringing out a new "client" later this month who resembles Gorgeous George to some extent. He has long curly hair; he will be perfumed. He is Bobby Duranton, who won a bathing beach contest a few years ago as the handsomest man in France, a sort of Mr. Muscle. Duranton weighs 230, stands 6 feet tall and will enter the ring wearing a baroque dressing gown with lace cuffs. Goldstein can hardly wait to count the money the first time Duranton meets the Homme Masque.

[strobogo]

On 3/23/2020 at 9:02 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

 

Modesto Aledo vs. Teddy Boy (aired 10/13/60)

Modesto Aledo is another Spanish guy with a huge rep, and man was he good. I honestly thought I'd uncovered one of the all-time greats while he in control of the bout. Then Teddy Boy took over and it became a showcase for him. To Aledo's credit, Teddy Boy repeatedly suplexed him over the top rope and onto the floor, which was ballsy stuff. Aledo had a fiery comeback, and I thought we were back on the Aledo train, but Teddy Boy got the "w." Apparently, Aledo jobbed a lot in Britain as well. I swear he looked incredible, though. 

Just watched this, shit was wild. Basically a French Catch Brock Lesnar match in 1960. Teddy Boy just fucking annihilating Modesto with crazy stiff strikes or the insane over the rope belly to belly, Modesto seems completely dead, gets a few hope spots, Teddy Boy just REKS him again. 

Teddy Boi is a menace.
 

[PeteF3]

Is there any info on Teddy Boy, like a real name or something? He doesn't appear to be the same guy as the guy in the Blouson Noirs/Teddy Boys tag team. Or is he?

[strobogo]

He didn't have a profile on cagematch

[ohtani's jacket]

The Teddy Boys tag team were Adolphe Sevre and Robert Le Boulch.

I'm fairly certain it's Sevre in the Aledo match.

[David Mantell]

How come they had Teds in France?
The Edwardian era isn't even called that in France, it's called "La Belle Epoque".

[David Mantell]

Any thoughts on the frankly ODD attitude to referees in French Catch.?  In America the referees are well meaning buffons who get KOd  and generally screw up on decisions.  In Britain they are tough hard-nosed enforcess whom the IBA demanded be shown to be in control all the time.  In France, they are portrayed as petty heel figures who help out the bad guy constantly until just at the end when they rnf up letting him down.  It is deemed acceptable for the babyface  to regularly  beat up the ref.  Even refs with exemplary past ring creditially like Michel Saulnier are considered only on step higher than, say Danny Davis in the WWF.

[MLB]

Roland Barthes is a french theorist who wrote a famous piece about professional wrestling in his book Mythologies and referees were one of the subjects.

I think this essay (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328744410_Barthes_on_Wrestling) sheds light on the French attitude towards referees:

"What the French public looks for in wrestlers, he (Barthes) asserts, is a “highly moral image: that of the perfect ‘bastard.’” Wrestling, then, because of the clarity of its signs and its many social, political and cultural meanings, is a spectacle of considerable interest to the semiologist.

Professional wrestling is a pseudo sport and really is a choreographed exhibition with two wrestler-actors that pretends to be a sport. There is what I would describe as a politics to wrestling.

Usually there is a dirty wrestler, a villain, a clean wrestler, a hero, and a bumbling referee, whose stupidity helps the villain and hurts the hero. We can look upon the referee in wrestling matches as the signifier of the state or the government, which messes up all the time and cannot be relied upon.

One thing we learn from watching wrestling matches is that the state unwittingly helps the villains in wrestling, and by implication, in society. Our political education from wrestling is not accurate but reflects the attitudes many people have about government."

[Matt D]

There are a lot of commonalities between lucha and French catch, which isn't surprising since the one (at least in the mythology) helped inspire the other and there was a South American contingent and vice versa. There's a certain code to being a stylist that feels not dissimilar to being a tecnico. So heel refs being a thing both places isn't too surprising.

More likely though, I think it's just that it got heat and was a part of the show that got over so they leaned into it. When you had Saulnier there, he was a guy who could take bumps and stooge and get proper comeuppance like a bumping manager could. He was someone who was a better wrestler than most of the people who were in there with him, despite being on the short site. Hell, he probably trained a good chunk of them. It was a short cut. There's so much we don't know about how they drew money and how important the TV was, etc., but just from the text itself, it was almost always over, gave them a narrative tool to prolong matches and make them a little more interesting than the really dominant babyface tags you'd get in the Hunter/Hayes era for instance, while still keeping the stylists protected by giving them a reason they weren't steamrolling the bad guys.

Now if there's something in French culture about authority figures and sports referees being notorious villains I couldn't tell you. To me, it's that confluence of having Saulnier in place and the narrative shortcuts it allowed that seemed to work for the crowd match after match after match after match.

[David Mantell]

They're not heels in the Danny Davis/Teddy Long/NWO Nick Patrick sense of a corrupt official who makes outrageously pro-heel calls.  They're portrayed as untrustworthy petty officials who do come through for Les Bons in the end most times, ususally because they have no choice,  but they spend the match arguing with Les Bons and giving them Avertisments (equivalent of Public Warnings a la British Wrestling and yellow/red cards in the CWA and Stampede) on top of the usual being blind sided by Les Méchants.  (The one honest referee in all of this is, ironically, former heel Roger Delaporte.  By contrast, the worst of the worst seems to be former squeaky clean lightweight Michel Saulnier who as a referee comes across as a horrid little man)  The chant of "Ho Ho Cette Arbitre" rings out on many of these old Catch matches.

It's seen as acceptable for even the most cleancut popular scientific Bons like Guy Mercier or Gerard Hervé both before and after he became Flesh Gordon, to beat up the referee pretty badly.  In America this sort of thing would be just about okay for a heel on the rampage.  In Britain, anyone deliberately beating up on a referee would cause a major heat incident.  In France it is seen as good sportsmanly behaviour worthy of a babyface.

 

I suppose this could be something to do with a traditional hatred by the French for petty officials.  (France has a VERY dodgy right wing police force whose union has been known to protect them from investigation into abuse of power as well as any attempt at reform by successive French governments.  In France, the good guys seem to be outlaws like Stone Cold Steve Austin fighting against an oppressive system.

It starts in the late 1970s and builds momentum during the 80s.  By the 21st century, longtime heel Jacky Richard had installed himself as heel commisioner Monsieur Jacky, modelled in clear part on Mr McMahon

One ruling he made in around 2007 was to ban Les Bons from deliberately encouraging the fans to cheer for them during matches, with good guys like the elderly tubby bald Flesh Gordon getting the worst of this.

 

[PeteF3]

Beating up the refs is obviously taboo, but even in Britain it seemed like Joe D'Orazio or Max Ward would get booed by the audience on their introduction more often than not. Thinking that the referees hate and are out to get "your" favorites seems to be a belief that crosses all cultures in all sports. 

Ref abuse by the babyfaces seems to be more common in Germany/Austria than elsewhere though probably not as common as in France. But I've definitely seen German/Austrian tag teams do the spot where the babyfaces tie up one villain in the ropes, pick up the other to use as a battering ram on him, and then when the ref tries to intervene they pick *him* up and use him.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't remember the ref being an issue in every match. I feel like it was more prominent in Delaporte's promotion. I can't remember the name of the tall ref who looks like a wrestler, but I wasn't a huge fan of him. By the time, Saulnier was a ref, business was pretty rough. The big guy played a prominent role in the 60s when business was still good. 

[David Mantell]

Just seen this match on Serje1's Youtube  When abouts it this from?  Flesh Gordon looks older and heavier than his final 1987 appearance on Matt D's channel but not as much as he does in say Reslo in '92. Serje has it down as being Eurosport/EWF but there is nothing on here to back this up other than all four appeared on said show and went on to careers in IWSF/Wrestling Stars in the C21st.  If this bout is as late as it looks, it throws a curveball into the timeline of when Le Catch Francais finally disappeared from French Terestrial Television.

 

[David Mantell]

10 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

Beating up the refs is obviously taboo, but even in Britain it seemed like Joe D'Orazio or Max Ward would get booed by the audience on their introduction more often than not. Thinking that the referees hate and are out to get "your" favorites seems to be a belief that crosses all cultures in all sports. 

Ref abuse by the babyfaces seems to be more common in Germany/Austria than elsewhere though probably not as common as in France. But I've definitely seen German/Austrian tag teams do the spot where the babyfaces tie up one villain in the ropes, pick up the other to use as a battering ram on him, and then when the ref tries to intervene they pick *him* up and use him.

Yes, Neil Sands got quite upset when the notoriously volative Croydon crowd cheered him being knocked out in 1988 (Mal would joke about that incident years later, especially if someone like me brought the McManus tape along for wrestlers to sign at All Star's "backstage pass" meet & greets - "Oh yes I remember THAT one - I got knocked out!  (He still signed the tape regardless.) 

But les Bons in le Catch seem to take the whole thing to another level, behaving like the worst American heels (even British heels would think twice about bumping  a ref deliberately.)  Wayne Bridges never laid a finger on Peter Baines after he lost the title to Kendo.  Big Daddy would get a second and final public warning for clubbing the smaller heel over the head with the bucket of water and he would bow his head in solemn repentence and sometimes shake the ref's hand to show he was taking his punishement like a man.  AS early as 1978 Guy Mercier was repeatedly striking referees and throwing them around the ring - Kent Walton would have been balistic and said that he thought the Guy (no pun intended) would be suspended and all sorts.

Les arbitres, for their part, seem to have gone along with this booking by expecting the worst from Les Bons and giving them public warnings left right and centre, often for things that were actually the fault of Le Méchant.  When fans shout Ho Cette Arbitre at Saulnier, he goes BALLISTIC and jumps up on the corner pad screaming at the fans to STFU. (I think there's one match on the ABC Catch channel where the fans start chanting something a bit more below-the-belt than ho cette arbitre at Saulnier, but I've not quite worked out what it was.)

So really the whole storyline by the late Noughties with Monsieur Jacky running the scene after a life of ring crime and referees giving out Avertisments for leading the fans in chants (that would be every blue-eye in C21st All Star in the UK DQ'd in record time then.) seems a logical conclusion to this whole situation.

Like I said, what we need is a French fan who grew up with this to explain the philososphy and the context properly like I am doinig on the British Wrestling thread right now.  (Not quite clear what nationality Ohtani's Jacket is.)

[David Mantell]

By the way I think Flesh Gordon may be due an apology from people who called him the worst worker.  How about this guy?

 

[David Mantell]

Weblinks for the Big Two present day old school French promoters:
Wrestling Stars:  https://catch.fr/
FFCP (Marc Mercier version):  http://ffcatch.fr/

I'm leaving the ICWA out of this as they are basically an "Americanised" (their own words) New School promotion like Hammerlock/ UWA/ FWA/ LDN/ WOSW etc in the UK or the GWF in Germany.

 

[Matt D]

I thought Gordon in that 79-85 range was perfectly fine. He becomes whatever he becomes but as the partner/heir to Bordes, he more than held his own. Maybe that was my expectations. Obviously, he's not some sort of mat genius but for where the French scene was at that point, he was a perfectly fine lead babyface, very good at aping a lot of those who came before him and even those who were his contemporaries (I'd see him pick up moves that I saw someone else do weeks or months before; some of that was always zeitgeist and a token trait of the scene though) and he had the crowd. Plus he had a great finishing move with the Juan Gil Don up and over mare thing.

In general @David Mantell, I'm sorry you weren't around a couple of years ago when I was living and breathing this stuff week to week. I ended up project drift by the end as you can imagine (though I'm proud for finishing it out and enjoyed almost all of it, even deep into the 80s). Now I'm on to Panama.

[NintendoLogic]

There was an article about Cassandro in the New Yorker a while back. One passage in particular stuck with me: "The character who interested me the most was Platanito, the referee. He did a fine job of being diabolical. He would seem to be imposing order, keeping the rudos in line, but then, at a critical moment, he would fail and reveal his weakness, his corruption. A técnico would be getting unlawfully stomped by a three-man tag team, and Platanito would suddenly jump in and join them, unable to resist the fun. Lucha libre referees have complex, only semi-managerial roles. They are much like the Mexican government, only funnier." It got me to thinking about a possible connection between the role of pro wrestling referees in different cultures and the culture's broader views of authority figures.

[David Mantell]

Thanks Matt, you've been a great help in this.  Many years ago I wanted to get into all the diferent European territories and see how they compared to the British Wrestling I grew up with.  France - and Germany from 1979ish - seem to be the two territories with a comparably large amount of circulating footage.  There was a small amount uploaded by people like Bob Alpra but being able to do a deep dive like this has been a dream come true.

Flesh clearly had a long career and he became the French Big Daddy in time (he's nearly 70 now) and without knowing a person's background and motivation it's hard to distinguish what is legitmate criticism of him from what is wrestling business politics stemming from:

a) the promotional-cum-blood feud between FFCP/Marc Mercier and  Wrestling Stars/Gordon/Jacky Richard which seems to be tearing the C21st French Old School scene apart.

b) supporters of ICWA and other Americanised promotions as well as French fans of WWE who use Gordon negatively as a stick to beat al old school French wrestling (like many British "new school" promotions/fans and British fans of American wrestling who hate traditional-style British Wrestling and want it wiped out and so use Big Daddy as a stick to beat it.)

He was a decent worker early on and his deterioration into a fat old man as the figurehead of a scene took several decades as it might well be expected to do with anyone. (I'm not exactly svelte myself at age 49) He makes a less obvious whipping boy than Daddy or even Otto Wanz and it's harder to put a finger on what French non-fans of his dislike about him.

Some time around the end of the 1960s gimmicks like Jean Ferre and Le Petit Prince (with all due respect to both Andre Rousimoff and Daniel Dubail) started to really gather pace with La Bete Humaine. By the 1980s France had really become the Memphis of Europe with stuff like Mambo Le Primativ, Jesse Texas, this week's Masked Wierdos (les Pihrannas, les Maniaks etc) Jacky Richard reinventing himself as the Marquis with his butler allowed to stand on the ring apron (which even American managers can't do) and Flesh Gordon as lead babyface gets the sharp end of the stick for being the frontman of all that. 

This carries on in the 90s and into the 00s with more characters like Travesti Man (with another manservant standing on the ring apron! ), Prince Zéfy (although a good worker) and Scott Ryder, plus an aging bald fat Gordon in the starring role and things have carried on like this ever since (with an obvious break for the pandemic).

Like All Star in Britain since the mid '90s Wrestling Stars continues as the dominant promotion touring with its family orientated show and may well carry on forever. Unlike Wrestling Stars, All Star is not in an incomprehensible blood feud with Premier or Rumble - it had a bit of a spat with TWA in the early Noughties over various issues which resulted in All Star improving its product and it had some competition over venues with LDN in the early 2010s but none of this was as embittered or as abusive as the current FFCP vs WS war.  Meanwhile as they try to destroy each other, local American-style indies and the WWE try to finish them both off and focus on Gordon as a target point.

[David Mantell]

5 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

There was an article about Cassandro in the New Yorker a while back. One passage in particular stuck with me: "The character who interested me the most was Platanito, the referee. He did a fine job of being diabolical. He would seem to be imposing order, keeping the rudos in line, but then, at a critical moment, he would fail and reveal his weakness, his corruption. A técnico would be getting unlawfully stomped by a three-man tag team, and Platanito would suddenly jump in and join them, unable to resist the fun. Lucha libre referees have complex, only semi-managerial roles. They are much like the Mexican government, only funnier." It got me to thinking about a possible connection between the role of pro wrestling referees in different cultures and the culture's broader views of authority figures.

The oddity in all that is the well meaning but weak American referees.  There's something very unlike America's preferred self image about them.  Tommy Young meant well but made decisions that ended up helping Flair retain his title (eventually making up for it when he endorsed Steamboat's pin on Flair.)  American referees forever taking bumps and missing crucial stuff. 

Meanwhile in Britain the referees - whom the Independent Broadcasting Authority demanded be seen to be in control at all times - were tough fearless John Wayne types determined to maintain order.  When the wrestlers were two sportsmanly blue-eyes playing nice together, the refs played nice too, even sharing laughs with them.  When wrestlers broke rules, refs were like angry army sergeants or old fashioned schoolteachers, unafraid to tear a strip off miscreants. 

You never see anything like that in American or French wrestling Gorilla Monsoon as a special ref in late 70s WWWF and Roger Delaporte as a ref in late 70s/80s France are the two comparable exceptions.  You'd expect America to have the tough Presidential/Movie Hero referees, tough Sheriffs of the ring.

It seems like Britain and America should be the other way around from how they each are and If the IBA hadn't kept such a tight leash on the content of British TV wrestling then things might have evolved differently as British wrestlers wanted to do more stuff that their American counterparts do..  As it is, the tighter no nonsense refereeing added to the air of serious sporting competition (Big Daddy and a few other things notwithstanding) that traditional British Wrestling aspired to provide ever since the near banning of All In in the late 1930s and the respectability drive that came with the Mountevans Rules.