Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'm still not feeling it. If a technical wrestler is one thing, and that thing doesn't exist anymore, then there are no more technical wrestlers. What we have instead is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It just means what we think of as technical wrestling has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Just curious how much DiBiase from 1979 WWF has anyone seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. "A running team" in football used to be the old three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust, grind-it-out, Woody Hayes offense--passing only when necessary. Now, particularly in the NFL, you're a "running team" if you rush on 50% of your plays. These things can happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 You guys are seriously overthinking this. If you're skilled at hold-counterhold wrestling, you're a technical wrestler. If you're not, you're not. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 That's one man's opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. "A running team" in football used to be the old three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust, grind-it-out, Woody Hayes offense--passing only when necessary. Now, particularly in the NFL, you're a "running team" if you rush on 50% of your plays. These things can happen. This is a performance art not a sport. Is this sort of how Nickelback became metal or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 That's one man's opinionTechnically, that's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Just curious how much DiBiase from 1979 WWF has anyone seen. Does the Dibiase/Patterson title change exist? youtube has I know what I'm watching tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. "A running team" in football used to be the old three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust, grind-it-out, Woody Hayes offense--passing only when necessary. Now, particularly in the NFL, you're a "running team" if you rush on 50% of your plays. These things can happen. This is a performance art not a sport. Is this sort of how Nickelback became metal or something? My view is in that in pro wrestling perception is reality. DiBiase in kayfabe terms was a technician--so that's what he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. "A running team" in football used to be the old three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust, grind-it-out, Woody Hayes offense--passing only when necessary. Now, particularly in the NFL, you're a "running team" if you rush on 50% of your plays. These things can happen. This is a performance art not a sport. Is this sort of how Nickelback became metal or something? My view is in that in pro wrestling perception is reality. DiBiase in kayfabe terms was a technician--so that's what he is. Then what he does should be what a technician does. Barring some great revelation, a technician is someone who does a few big suplexes (vertical, belly to back, gutwrench) with fairly good execution. Has a couple of other power impact moves (power slam, pile driver, neckbreaker). Has a hold for a finisher. A lot of stomps, etc. And has a bitching fist drop. I'm glad we figured out what a technician does. I'll watch those Patterson matches tomorrow and then we can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I think Misawa was undisputedly a technical wrestler. He was meant to have the most perfect technique and invariably it got him out of trouble. I don't see this. When did Misawa ever demonstrate mat skill? About the only time he ever went to the mat was to apply the facelock. And he never worked his way out of holds that were applied on him, he just made the ropes. It wasn't his technique that got him out of trouble, it was his elbows. Kawada was more of a brawler. I don't really see this either. I did some thinking a while back about what constituted a brawl. Like, I've heard Shawn Michaels described as a brawler, and that didn't sound right to me. I've decided that a brawl should have at least two of the following elements: -Punches -Blood -Foreign objects I would also add a lack of working holds. If you're fighting a guy on the street, you're not going to put him in an armbar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's just become less technical. "A running team" in football used to be the old three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust, grind-it-out, Woody Hayes offense--passing only when necessary. Now, particularly in the NFL, you're a "running team" if you rush on 50% of your plays. These things can happen. This is a performance art not a sport. Is this sort of how Nickelback became metal or something? My view is in that in pro wrestling perception is reality. DiBiase in kayfabe terms was a technician--so that's what he is. Kayfabe is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Kayfabe is dead. So's DiBiase's career. Who the fuck cares how the state of kayfabe in 2012 relates to DiBiase? We can discuss that in the "John Cena: Brawler or Technician" thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Kayfabe is dead. So's DiBiase's career. Who the fuck cares how the state of kayfabe in 2012 relates to DiBiase? We can discuss that in the "John Cena: Brawler or Technician" thread. I should have put a little smiley in there so I didn't evoke so much anger from you. With that said, I disagree with you on the whole perception is reality thing. If the announcers sell you as super technical man and you show week after week that you are super punching bleeding brawling man, it just means you have stupid announcers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 No anger. That post deserved a smiley of its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'm angry that my absolutely hilarious one liner earlier is getting no-sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 We're a little busy here, gramps. We're having a serious internet argument almost solely about semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 We're a little busy here, gramps. We're having a serious internet argument almost solely about semantics.How dare you, sir. 42 is middle aged. Anyhoo, on subject...as far as DiBiase's rep as a "technical" wrestler, (whatever the fuck that actually means), I'll go back to a common source I cite for a lot of things from back then, the Magazines. The Apter mags always went on and on about Dibiase's "technical skills" and how disappointing it was that a guy with his "scientific" skills would resort to cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I think Misawa was undisputedly a technical wrestler. He was meant to have the most perfect technique and invariably it got him out of trouble. I don't see this. When did Misawa ever demonstrate mat skill? About the only time he ever went to the mat was to apply the facelock. And he never worked his way out of holds that were applied on him, he just made the ropes. It wasn't his technique that got him out of trouble, it was his elbows. If you've been following the discussion you'll know that my claim was that as matwork became less prominent execution became a driving factor behind who was perceived as a technical wrestler. Misawa was noted for his execution. He executed state of the art suplexes with a high degree of difficulty to win matches and even his elbows were meant to be effective because of their precision. Kawada was more of a brawler. I don't really see this either. I did some thinking a while back about what constituted a brawl. Like, I've heard Shawn Michaels described as a brawler, and that didn't sound right to me. I've decided that a brawl should have at least two of the following elements: -Punches -Blood -Foreign objects I would also add a lack of working holds. If you're fighting a guy on the street, you're not going to put him in an armbar. That's fantastic, but you can work like a brawler and not have a brawl y'know. Kawada's offence was mainly based around kick, punch, elbow, chop, knee. It was very deliberate and meant to play off his character. When you watched All Japan you were meant to think that Kawada had the temperament to kick a man in the face, which is an attribute of a brawling heel to my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 If you've been following the discussion you'll know that my claim was that as matwork became less prominent execution became a driving factor behind who was perceived as a technical wrestler. Misawa was noted for his execution. He executed state of the art suplexes with a high degree of difficulty to win matches and even his elbows were meant to be effective because of their precision. I have been following. And I've said in this and other threads that matwork is a necessary component of technical wrestling. If you don't work the mat, you're not a technical wrestler. That's fantastic, but you can work like a brawler and not have a brawl y'know. Kawada's offence was mainly based around kick, punch, elbow, chop, knee. It was very deliberate and meant to play off his character. When you watched All Japan you were meant to think that Kawada had the temperament to kick a man in the face, which is an attribute of a brawling heel to my mind. See, I don't really consider kicks and chops to be brawling. That's, like, martial arts or some shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 The way Kawada executed his kicks and chops wasn't martial arts style. Even the shoot style guys didn't really execute their kicks in a martial arts style. Later on, RINGS fighters mimicked a stand up game more closely, but Kawada didn't have any sort of martial arts stance and he sure as hell didn't display any sort of martial arts etiquette as he would kick a downed opponent and so on. We'll have to disagree about whether you can be a technican without working the mat, but if Misawa isn't a technical wrestler then what is he? Part power wrestler, part brawler, part flyer, part strongest fighter, part Kings Road/Four Corners of Heaven whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 We'll have to disagree about whether you can be a technican without working the mat, but if Misawa isn't a technical wrestler then what is he? Part power wrestler, part brawler, part flyer, part strongest fighter, part Kings Road/Four Corners of Heaven whatever?AJPW simply didn't do that kind of thing. Don't be too reductive. That fucking terrible Bret Hart vs Tiger Mask II match was as close to Wigan-style counterwrestling as Misawa was ever gonna get. It just wasn't one of his strengths. Nobody's perfect. Misawa was not a great technical wrestler, he essentially left all that behind to build his own style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I watched the first Patterson match and I think it'd be reasonable to call Dibiase a technical wrestler in it. Stalling to begin and a fiery babyface assault with punches/stomps after that, but then he uses armwork (not wildly varied but interesting enough) to keep Patterson in the ring after he takes a powder, and he capitalizes on a corner posting with a couple of big abdominal stretches. Yes, there were slams/dropkicks, etc, and nothing was brilliant or anything, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable to call him 79 babyface WWF Ted technical from that match. I'll watch the other one later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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