Phil Schneider Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I think the only solution is to run a podcast with Wild Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Just want to note that Gabe's claim that Credible was a really strong house show worker is something I don't see at all. Credible was always a good bumper, but he is not a guy that stands out on the house shows at all despite his cheap heat tactics being a staple of every match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Just want to note that Gabe's claim that Credible was a really strong house show worker is something I don't see at all. Credible was always a good bumper, but he is not a guy that stands out on the house shows at all despite his cheap heat tactics being a staple of every match. Who as Champ was better on house shows then in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I don't know that any ECW champion was a particularly good or consistent house show wrestler while champion, Credible included. I'm far from a big Mike Awesome fan - and most of his better matches weren't necessarily because of him - but I don't see how Credible was better than him on house shows. Actually I think Credible's best run with the company was a good bit before he won the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 At the time, I thought Tanaka and Awesome were better. I enjoyed Jerry Lynn more. Obviously, I would have loved to see an extended Tajiri run with the belt. Having said that, I can see what Gabe was saying about having the belt on someone you can trust and putting it on Awesome, we saw how that turned out. I was going to mention it but let it slide since I was trying to be positive... A promoter has to put the belt on someone they trust but the promoter has a responsibility to actually pay the talent without having checks bounce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I don't know that any ECW champion was a particularly good or consistent house show wrestler while champion, Credible included. That was kinda my point in asking my previous question. The "really strong house show worker" label to me was always presented as more of a thing of he tried really hard on house shows as he knew he wasnt connecting the way previous Champions were. In a sense over compensation on his part and part defensive stance by those connected to ECW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Come to think of it, didn't ECW draw a surprisingly decent series of house shows in 2000? I doubt Credible had much to do with it, it was probably caused by some new fans seeing the product for the first time on TNN. But it's still an interesting coincedence. Heck, there's a decent discussion all by itself: why did Credible suck so hard? Because, looking back, he really didn't suck at all. He was a perfectly competent worker in multiple styles, and he was always a heat magnet with the crowd. Heck, for my money he had the last good match of Shane Douglas's career and actually got the mutants to cheer for the Franchise one last time. Was he just booked so overwhelmingly strong, so protected for so long, that fans resented him being pushed down their throats? It seems like the moment he got the belt is still seen by many as the point of no return for ECW as a viable promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Think about how he won the belt. -Awesome jumps ship with title to WCW. -Paul E. goes to court and ensures Awesome must drop the title. -Awesome loses to WWE contracted employee Taz on random house show. -Taz and Dreamer are destroyed and buried on WWE TV by HHH in a segment that supposedly was meant to put over the Dreamer v. Taz title match at the Arena. -Dreamer - the most beloved figure in ECW history - wins his first ever ECW title by beating Taz in the Arena. -Seconds later Credible comes out and wins the title in impromptu match from Dreamer I don't think the guy was a convincing promo at all, but that's a pretty shitty way to inherit the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Yeah, but the hate train was already rolling long before that. To compare it to his Kliq overlords: he was booked like Triple H, but the fans treated him like X-Pac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 Yeah, but the hate train was already rolling long before that. What was the start of it? Him being called the next Stone Cold by Paul E. or Sasuke jobbing to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 Those could have been it. Or was it his stupid name? His lame catchphrase? His rodent-like teeth? His stealing of Sandman's cane gimmick? His gaggle of lame sidekicks and henchmen? His scrawny frame? His Cena-like ring gear? His well-known history of having been Aldo Fucking Montoya? His well-known Kliq Associate Member status? His winning the vast majority of his matches? Well, now that I write all that down in a row, I guess it seems more understandable. But still, the fans often acted like this guy was a shittier version of Tiger Ali Singh and disgraced the ECW belt when he won it, which still seems a bit over the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 Has anyone asked Paul post-ECW what he was thinking? Also does anyone know if PJ had any interest from WCW or why Nash and Hall didnt bring him in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 Also does anyone know if PJ had any interest from WCW or why Nash and Hall didnt bring him in?The WWF kept him under some sort of contract all the way until 97, and released him on the condition that he couldn't jump to WCW. Why the hell they cared at all about whether Aldo fucking Montoya showed up on Nitro, I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 What does being a "strong house show worker" even mean? That he was good for live crowds without stringent time constraints? As a sixteen and seventeen year old mark, I was a big fan of the guy, because he was portrayed as a bad ass who talked smack and then backed it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 I thought Gabe's Sabu for the WO HOF was an interesting take. The original ECW fan base who were there at his debut are the only ones I feel that can rationalize his induction without coming across as a WTF are you thinking. I don't think he deserves to sniff the HOF, but if you were with him from the beginning I can understand that POV a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 I wish Gabe hadn't been more dismissive of Will's point about 99/00 ECW being the best in ring product in the States. When you watch the stuff that is out there - something few of us have done - this doesn't even seem like a contentious statement. It's really obvious and Gabe's "well yeah the in ring product was still good" or whatever line really misses the point. It wasn't just that the in ring product was "still good." It was that the in ring product was the best it had ever been, was the best in the States and very probably the best in the World. In Tajiri they had a very serious wrestler of the year candidate for both 99 and 00. Really his run of stuff was just incredible and really varied. It's a shame that whole run isn't watched and discussed more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 You're right about 99/00 ECW, but I think a lot of this stuff is much more evident re-watching all these years later than if you just watched it back then. Gabe not liking the Smothers/Guido FBI much seems insane to me now. They're my favorite act to watch when I get old Fancams. But when I think back to my mindset back in 98, the FBI weren't that big of a deal to me. I thought they were entertaining, but I was more focused on stuff that doesn't hold up as well. I wasn't numb to highspots back then, so I was more into RVD/Sabu tags, or Masato Tanaka being murdered by Mike Awesome. Now that I watch wrestling more for simple and smart work, I love watching old FBI matches. In 99 and 2000 I wasn't thinking about ECW as the best in-ring product in the states. I was thinking about how badly the TNN deal was working out, and how ECW was losing all of it's talent, and how the booking was stale, and how much hotter WWE was and how great Austin/Rock/Foley were. Today, I can watch that period and realize that 2000 was ECW's best year for PPV quality and Tajiri was great and Guido/Mamaluke were an amazing tag team and Spike Dudley was a really smart worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 4, 2010 Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 99/2000 ECW had great wrestling but I just couldn't get into it because the booking was so stale (and flat out boring) and Paul (through his own admission) was running on his last creative fumes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2010 Strummer, the point is that when you rewatch it, there was tons of great wrestling. I agree with you about the booking. I am talking strictly about in-ring. Also, to be fair to Gabe, Naylor had already started wrapping the show up when I made the point about 1999 so it is easy to see why he didn't really give it that much attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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