Steamboat and Youngblood

[shoe]

I was wondering how much footage is out there for this team. I was watching their match from 1980 in MSG against Tor Kamata and Bulldog Brower and was shocked that they were able to pull that level of match out of those guys. Kamata has some schtick he can work, but Brower has nothing in the tank here. Right at the start the heels Pearl Harbor them and Steamboat does some amazing selling that makes Kamata look like a million bucks . Later Kamata and Steamer have a fun karate off. Youngblood had a lot of energy and could sell too. This match wasn't a lost classic , but just a glimpse of how good this team was. This was also their MSG debut and they got over pretty good. As a promoter watching this you think these guys are your future tag champs. It's pretty amazing how much they got over working against a pair of over the hill workers.

 

Now I know we have The Final Conflict, another televised match between the teams, we have the Starcade match with the Briscos, and a couple of studio bouts. We have the Hansen/Brody disaster from Japan. Their are the Toronto bout against Stevens and Snuka, and a studio bout between the 2 teams. Another match from Japan against the Funks. Are their any other ones out their that should be looked at ?

 

Historians talk about this team in a real high regard . I have even heard the greatest baby face tag team around label thrown around.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Thanks for setting this up as Steamboat has been one of the guys I have been exploring in depth until he got tabled in favor of Valentine and Backlund. It all got kicked off by how utterly underwhelmed I was by the Final Conflict. I thought that was one of the most boring babyface shine segments I had ever seen. I am totally fine with going back to the headlock everytime, but Flair/Reed this was not. Once we got past that, I thought we were going to get all these bitchin Sgt Slaughter bumps, but alas it did not seem to come to fruition. I watched this previous Friday and have already managed to forget most of it. It was not a bad match by any stretch, but given that it was Steamboat & Slaughter; I came in with great expectations. That may have been unfair.

 

I have watched the Steamboat & Youngblood vs Briscos match on numerous occasions and I finally figured out I feel is off about it. The heat segments are way too short and thus the hot tags aren't built to a fever pitch. It is a match that seems to purposefully restrain itself due to the hype around Flair/Race. It seems like they were just going for a feel-good match rather than all-time classic. Unlike Valentine/Piper, which was a totally unrestrained effort by two men and they stole the show in my estimation.

 

So I am pretty sour on the Steamboat & Youngblood pairing, but a Funks match in All Japan. may just be the remedy I need to turn myself around on them.

[JerryvonKramer]

Slightly surprised at someone not liking Final Conflict. I was blown away by that match. If it has a problem it's that the heel-in-peril / babyface shine sequence at the start on Don Kernodle is too long -- which you mention Superstar -- but that sequence needs to happen not only for the overriding sense that by the end of the match BOTH teams have been through a total war but also for it to make sense for Slaughter to take greater and greater risks.

 

What I'm most surprised by is that you don't think we got any bitchin' Slaughter bumps. There's one where he comes off the top of the cage that got the full 10/10 HOLY SHIT mark out from me. I can't believe you're no selling that.

 

I'd nudge you in the direction of our audio review from July last year, one of the very first shows we did -- it's one of the more in-depth match reviews, about 30 minutes on it: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=18986

 

Fast-forward to about 57 minutes in. Once you get past all our bum-love for David Crockett, you'll find Chad has many of the same reservations as you Superstar and that is partly because he was coming in with the idea of it as an all-time classic. He talks about how Youngblood and Steamboat were "too technical" on offense, even if the gimmick of the cage match is used. And we both rag on that heel-in-peril segment quite a lot as well as questioning its logic, especially as it is followed by another heel-in-peril segment.

 

But I think by the end of the match we're both really into it. The intensity of Steamboat's chops, him taking an amazing spot into the cage, his selling, Kernodle's extended selling over a period of time, the stiffness of Slaughter and Kernodle's clotheslines, and so on. He has it below Valentine vs. Piper, but I've got a feeling I'd put it ahead of that. I seem like I'm a lot higher on it than him and I'd forgotten just how much he wasn't convinced of its greatness. We both agreed though that if we had to give ratings we'd both go ****1/2, which seems higher than you Superstar Sleaze.

 

EDIT: On a side point, Chad -- if you read this -- would be interested to know if you've turned around on Steamer now we're the other side of the 89 trilogy because you are way down on him here! More than I remember. Also this was before our me on summary / you on analysis structure. We might think about going back to that style, I dunno.

[soup23]

I don't know if it is necessarily me needing to turn around on Steamboat. I will unequivocally say he was a great wrestler. I will also say however, that he is nowhere near a serious contender for my GOAT list and even in my top 10 US guys, it was easy for me to pass him by. I think this is in contrast to some people around here and other areas. Steamboat just has the tendency in matches to do little things that irk me like overselling, not showing enough fire, etc. I think Will was astute in the latest AWA podcast in pointing out that he is just playing to the back row of fans but that is not who I am in the audience so when I view a match, I give my opinion on what actually transpired and what I am physically seeing.

 

Steamboat also had some disappointing stuff with Regal and that truly wretched match with Snuka on the All Japan set. I knew his 1989 Flair stuff was great going in and it held up to every bit. I would say Steamboat was great in all the matches. However, I would firmly astute that Flair was better in the Wrestlewar match and I preferred his performance in Clash 6 although Steamboat was splendid in that match as well.

 

Steamboat also has too many lost years for me to consider him a contender for any GOAT conversation. Can anyone point me to any 1988,1990,1991 Steamboat that is top notch? That is three years in a span of 11 years of good footage from him to judge from 1983-1994.

 

In regards to Final Conflict, again let me state that it is a great match. I think now in retrospect 4.5 stars may be too high but it is nitpicking since I would for sure have it over 4 stars. However, superstar hit on the flaws that I agree with besides the Slaughter bumping point and when we do our 1980's retrospective podcast I see no way it will be in my top 10 matches of the decade and maybe not even top 20.

 

In regards to both Steamboat and the Final Conflict match in general I don't want to sound negative because I think both are great, just not the greatest.

[TobyNotJason]

I had watched the Final Conflict match about two weeks before finding WTBBP and listening to Jerry and soup's review, and I spent most of that listen shaking my head. Maybe it helps that I had watched all TV and the build, but the lengthy "wrestle down" (as against "beat down") shine segment vs. Kernodle (and then, it's worth noting, vs. Slaughter for 5 minutes) was, to me, a masterstroke.

 

This was a monumental match, and monumental matches have more leeway than some studio match or feud-continuer WRT formulas. The domination of Kernodle and frustration of Slaughter was all about showing that, indeed, Steamboat and Youngblood were decisively better in a "fair wrestling match". And not merely in the manner connoted by a typical 5 minute shine. No, this was a shine designed to build crowd heat in an unconventional, backwards way. It was about generating mounting enthusiasm for a stretch of dominance southern tag team wrestling fans pretty much never got to actually see, despite implicitly imagining it every time they cursed a heel team for taking shortcuts.

 

As far as the criticism that the style of offense was too technical, it's who they were. They were not thuggish brawlers, they were scientific wrestlers. That was kind of the point of the feud. The cage wasn't about them wanting to kill Slaughter and Kernodle. It was about the backstory of the "rightful" wrestling champions constantly being foiled by the low down cheating ways of Slaughter and Kernodle. That first 15-20 minutes was the proof that Steamboat and Youngblood were better at wrestling. They weren't just so happening to get the better of a relatively brief exchange at the start of the match (a la classic STT formula), which could (kayfabe) happen randomly between teams of similar "ability", or even sometimes with a team of lesser "ability". And I ate it up, every spoonful.

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm definitely on the pro side in regards to Final Conflict. I loved it and the way it was worked made perfect sense to me. My thoughts from watching it a few months ago,

 

"The first half of this match was one of the best examples I've seen yet of the babyfaces simply outwrestling the heels to perfection. There is a moment in the first 10 minutes when Kernodle is already desperate for a tag, and he finally gets over to his corner only to find that Slaughter has walked away to talk sh*t to the fans and inadvertently missed him. I laughed forever, and that might be the single smartest spot in a match I have seen during this project.

 

That is about as light hearted as it gets though, because this is some serious business. I like that the cage didnt force the babyfaces to suddenly change into wild brawlers off the bat - these guys are wrestlers and all they wanted was a place to finally, definitively out-wrestle them for the belts. But the heels have come with taped fists, and the first thing they do when they get the chance is start ramming heads into the cage, and the babyfaces have to respond in kind and they end up in a war. The old cliche about a match "descending into a brawl" really applies here. Everyone is bleeding (and both heels do hilariously, hilariously blatant blade jobs, for the lulz) and everyone is throwing really hard shots, with some nasty lariats in particular. Slaughter, God love him, typically bumps around like a lunatic, and even misses a huge ass dive off the top of the cage, to which whoever announcer it is literally screaming "NOOOOOOOOO!" in horror is the new best call of a spot of all time."

[soup23]

Hey Jimmy, the announcer was David Crockett. The best worst announcer of all time.

[Jimmy Redman]

Ah cheers. I was too young and relatively ignorant going in to be up with those details.

[Dylan Waco]

Final Conflict is probably my favorite Cage Match of all time

[shoe]

Soup that's kinda neat in the comparison of Steamboat and Flair in the holy trilogy. A talking point of Meltzer's when discussing the trilogy was Flair was greater in the 1st match. In the second match they were equals. The 3rd bout Steamboat was greater. Just something you might be interested in .

[ohtani's jacket]

soup, Steamboat does have the Clash return from 11/91 and some Dec TV matches that year.

[JerryvonKramer]

"Best worst announcer of all time" is a perfect description of David Crockett. Honestly, though, I'd take him over Solie or Caudle at this point. Maybe he was annoying if you were watching week after week but he's totally awesome in a big match setting or getting over angles. I don't think even Vince himself got that mark fan thing down as amazingly as David did -- I think because David himself was an actual mark rather than pretending to be one.

 

Soup - 80s retrospective awards show will be interesting. For Flair-Steamboat, I picked Steamer as MVP 3/3 times, you went with Flair twice. You've also said Final Conflict isn't making your top ten matches and frankly I'm shocked.

[soup23]

Ohtani- I came in her to clarify that I forgot that him jumping back to WCW in November of 1991. I always think that happens at the January 1992 Clash for some reason. That match is one of my favorite and honestly may be a top 10 Steamboat match for me.

 

Shoe - We discuss this in the second part of the podcast but I am shocked at Dave's description of their respective performances in the matches. Again it is comparing great to great , but I stand by the fact that 50 years from now if someone wonders onto a wrestling message board and says what is the deal with this Ric Flair guy? I would point to Wrestlewar quickly because of the transformation Flair takes in that match. In the beginning minutes he comes out with 30 women and is strutting around, by the end of Funk's beatdown he is an extremely sympathetic babyface that just had his big moment ruined.

 

Parv- I think you have become really high on the Final Conflict match in retrospect. On shows we have watched currently, it would probably be in the top 10 but when we get to the rest of 1989 and especially the TV stuff, there is no way. I honestly don't know at this point if I would put it above Fantastics/MX from Clash 1 or Luger/Flair from Starrcade.