Dylan Waco Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 The only line of defense I can think of for the match is that its placement on the set comes at a time when there's a rush of good matches. The second half of disc 3 is getting towards All-Japan levels of consistency. The Bock vs. Martel matches are excellent, one of them is truly great and potential #1 contender. The Bock vs. Hennig match has great energy and an interesting story. The 6-man tag is lots of fun. That's a very solid stretch of matches. And then in the middle of it, you have this 70s-style matwork borefest with no heat. Part of me does think that if this was on, for example, disc 1 right next to something like Verne vs. Bock, it might not seem quite so objectionable. So I'm willing to say that context -- the context of everything around it being pretty great -- might make it seem worse than it is. I don't see an argument for saying this is anywhere near the level of the other Martel matches on disc 3 though, especially not the ones with Bock. And yes, of course, Brad is the differentiator. That and the face vs. face dynamic (Jumbo doesn't count as a face for me in AWA, he's a unique case). So take away Martel's fire, his comeback spots, and a lot of what makes him great is taken away. You're left with a goody-two-shoes white meat babyface who is technically proficient and not a lot else. In there against Brad who is that to the power of 10. I can think of situations where I might enjoy Brad. For example, getting his face smashed in against any heel. But this match was more or less set up to extenuate all of the things I don't like about him. I find it really odd that the guy who hates Mike Rotunda doesn't also hate this dude. There is a Mike Rotunda match on this set I praised. Because It's a good match. I have no particular love or interest in Rheingans who actually disappointed me as I watched this match early and was blown away by how great I thought it was. I thought he was going to be a standout for the set as a "lost worker" type and he really wasn't. But just as Somers v. Rotunda is really good even though Rotunda is boring as fuck, this match is really good (better than Somers v. Rotunda in my view) even though Rheingans isn't exactly Mr. Charisma. I wouldn't say this is better than all the Bock v. Martel matches and would have zero problem with those being ahead on people's ballots. But I don't think the gap is big at all and I will have this match right with the pack of Bock v. Martel matches on my ballot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Exposer - my distaste for extended matwork is no big secret. I think I was the only guy who had Masa Fuchi vs. Pete Roberts (5/5/87) as 150 for All Japan. That's just not my scene. I don't hate matwork completely, but there has to be something more compelling to it than lying around or doing "neat" counters. I like to see viciousness, it has to look like it is really hurting. My problem with the Lucha I've seen thus far is that none of the matwork looks believable. If you want to hurt someone's neck, you don't contort yourself into a headstand doing it. I have a general problem with "exhibition-y" type matwork, I am as down on that as I am on the worst excesses of flippy flippy highflyers. This is one of the reasons I am a little apprehensive of the Lucha set. I basically hated Mil Mascaras in All Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Ever. I'd go as far as to say that it's the least enjoyable match I've seen in the past 12 months, and I've seen at least three Ranger Ross matches in that timeframe. Somehow I missed this, but this is probably the most insane thing I've ever seen about a match on a message board. I literally cannot imagine this being true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I think it's a close call as to which out of this and Ranger Ross vs. Butch Reed from Wrestlewar 89 I enjoyed less. Ross/Reed is edging it because Reed came out to funky music and Ross's entrance made me laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Is peyote legal Britain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I dug the match. It was....different. In a good way. I didn't mind the crotch-based finish, either. Yeah, I said it. Crotch-based finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Exposer - my distaste for extended matwork is no big secret. I think I was the only guy who had Masa Fuchi vs. Pete Roberts (5/5/87) as 150 for All Japan. That's just not my scene. I don't hate matwork completely, but there has to be something more compelling to it than lying around or doing "neat" counters. I like to see viciousness, it has to look like it is really hurting. My problem with the Lucha I've seen thus far is that none of the matwork looks believable. If you want to hurt someone's neck, you don't contort yourself into a headstand doing it. I have a general problem with "exhibition-y" type matwork, I am as down on that as I am on the worst excesses of flippy flippy highflyers. This is one of the reasons I am a little apprehensive of the Lucha set. I basically hated Mil Mascaras in All Japan. Most of the high end lucha from the 80s is brawls. I can only think of four or five significant title matches from the available footage. I can't really reconcile how someone who likes crappy US gimmicks and soft US matwork can have a problem with believability, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Hercules Hernandez sitting in a chinlock kinda makes sense even if he is meant to be an ancient slave or whatever; getting out of a head scissors by means of a headstand just doesn't. On top of that, unlike crappy US gimmicks, there is no kitsch value to fall back on for my own amusement. So it's just two guys tied up like a pair of acrobatic octopuses doing moves that even theoretically don't look like they could hurt. That sort of thing is just not what I'm looking for in my wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 So you're trying to tell me that you can tolerate Hercules Hernandez's awful matwork because you've somehow talked yourself into believing it fits his character, but you can't understand the asthetic appeal of undressing a hold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 OJ - it depends on the match in question. For example, the matwork in the Bock-Martel matches is excellent. It's not only smart but also intense and nasty. Obviously I'll always take that over Herc. The important factor for me is when it feels like I'm watching an exhibition. As I said, it's the same reason I tend not to like flippy spot-oriented high flyers. It takes me out of things. If the two guys are genuinely struggling for position, I can get into that. If it feels like a skill demonstration, most of the time I can't. The lucha I've seen has been guilty of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I remember liking the Ranger Ross vs "The Terrorist" match from that Clash at The Citadel because it was so ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 OJ - it depends on the match in question. For example, the matwork in the Bock-Martel matches is excellent. It's not only smart but also intense and nasty. Obviously I'll always take that over Herc. The important factor for me is when it feels like I'm watching an exhibition. As I said, it's the same reason I tend not to like flippy spot-oriented high flyers. It takes me out of things. If the two guys are genuinely struggling for position, I can get into that. If it feels like a skill demonstration, most of the time I can't. The lucha I've seen has been guilty of this. Oh, Jerry, lucha is not guilty of anything. There is lucha that feels choreographed and lucha that is exhibitiony but a magnificent display of skill, just as there are matches on the AWA discs you like and matches you don't. It has more to do with the quality of the workers than lucha itself, as lucha isn't a style per se but a name for a particular region of wrestling. There's as many ways to work the mat in lucha as there are match types. The idea that all lucha is crazy Dos Caras submission holds is a stereotype. You have this extraordinary habit of rushing to conclusions based on one or two matches. I wonder what you'd tell your students if they reached similar conclusions about literature with little or not supporting evidence. Mil Mascaras in Japan is not lucha. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend you get the lucha set as it's obvious you're going to like it about as much as you like jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 I did say "the lucha I've seen" rather than all lucha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 How much does that amount to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Actual lucha as in matches from Mexico? ... less than 10. Matches involving guys from Mexico like Mascaras and Dos Caras -- however many there were on the All Japan set. It just so happens that all of them have had this particular style of matwork in common. I still have all of the 90s yearbooks sitting here waiting to be watched. Everyone has been hyping El Dandy, so I am both curious and looking forward to getting there. Just need to get AWA out of the way first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 All right, I think it pays to watch some of the more highly touted stuff before dismissing a style completely. I also wonder how lucha isn't kitsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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