If Not Race Then Who?

[jdw]

As for his working style/being able to carry a broomstick....frankly I saw more carry jobs out/strong performances with limited guys out of Patera in 80 then I can remember seeing out of Ted when he would have been a contender. That's not a knock on Ted and I wouldn't doubt he could do it. But it's not like he was working Tony Atlas, Morales, aging Bruno (who I like but is limited), let alone guys like Putski and Strongbow. Aside from Backlund, I'm not sure Patera worked anything close to a top level guy in his peak year. I'd say 80 Patera is pretty much a textbook example of how to stooge/bump, while remaining strong which was really the key to NWA champs during that period. If you want to argue based on "look" or something of that ilk he's not that different in presence to me from Kiniski.

 

This.

[KrisZ]

We have way more Patera in high end matches from that era than we do of DiBiase because Patera was a mainstay in WWF and AWA who were high profile territories.

 

DiBiase worked Georgia & Mid-South with a lack of footage from Mid-South until December 1981 and nothing but Techwood matches from Ted mainly tags at that. Both had great reps and both brought different things to the table as in 1981 DiBiase hadn't worked heel yet in his career while Patera was one of the best heels in the business. Patera also had experience working face earlier in his career so he could do both back then with Ted you didn't know because if you watched Ted promos from that era he was very milktoast and very similar to Dory.

[jdw]

How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/

 

I have Brickhithouses's WWF 79-83 set and a project lined up later this year where I'll see a whole bunch of Patera.

This is on his set:

 

01-21 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera WWF Title (MSG)

03-24 Andre The Giant & Pat Patterson vs Bobby Duncum & Ken Patera (MSG)

04-21 Pat Patterson vs Ken Patera IC Title (MSG)

05-19 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera WWF Title (MSG)

07-26 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera WWF Title (Spectrum)

08-09 Ken Patera vs Tony Atlas IC Title (Shea)

08-23 Ken Patera vs Gorilla Monsoon (Spectrum)

10-20 Ken Patera vs Pedro Morales IC Title (MSG)

12-29 Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson (MSG)

 

Make sure to also watch this:

 

11/08/80 Ken Patera vs Bruno Sammartino

 

Which is useful as a comp to the very heated Bruno vs Larry matches from early in the year.

[jdw]

BTW... these two threads might also be decently moves over to the 'Scope. Seem to fit in with the type of discussions in that forum.

[BrickHithouse]

a lack of footage from Mid-South until December 1981

Sorry to potentially derail this debate, and God knows I love the plugs for the set , but what is the deal with the dearth of Mid South footage prior to late 1981?

[JerryvonKramer]

EDIT: Do I really have to spell out a definition of NWA World champ working style?? Really? We don't just all implicitly know and accept what that is?

I've already spelled out what I believe it was. I have no clue what you believe it was and there could be a huge difference here since you were citing Iron Sheik's one month title win in the WWF as a historical parallel to Ivan Kollof theoretically winning the NWA Title and coming into the biggest show in Crockett history up to that point as the champ to pass the torch to Flair. I don't even mean that as a troll. Even when I agree with you (which is probably more often than not actually) we rarely share assumptions and I don't think we view anything through the same prism

 

I don't view everything through an 80s WWF prism. It may come across that way, but it's not true. There is about 100 hours of audio of me discussing NWA during which it wouldn't be accurate to say that I view things through that prism. The Sheik analogy was unfortunate, but my point with it was that Ivan being NWA champ at that time would have had to be that sort of scenario. In the event that Race doesn't exist or is out of the game, Starrcade 83 can't go down exactly the same way. This thread has established a like-for-like replacement for Race doesn't exist. My scenario had the NWA board scrambling for ideas. We've established that the Ivan option isn't a good one. Let's not beat a dead horse.

 

My Ivan scenario doesn't reveal in microcosm my profound misunderstanding of the wrestling landscape in 1983. Or how I think it worked the same as WWF. It doesn't reveal anything. If you read my posts on it carefully, I pointed it out at the time that it would be a big change of direction.

 

You saying that you have "no clue" what I believe NWA traveling champ style to be does seem to suggest that I could come up with something completely off-the-wall. I'm puzzled by that. I think it's the same as what everyone else does. It's not exactly an industry secret.

[KrisZ]

a lack of footage from Mid-South until December 1981

Sorry to potentially derail this debate, and God knows I love the plugs for the set , but what is the deal with the dearth of Mid South footage prior to late 1981?

 

No one archived it up until the last tapings of the year.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree that it's not a secret, but you keep citing it as a reason Patera could have never held the belt. I have cited why I think he was a quite good at that "style" if you want to call it that. I see no harm in publicly stating our assumptions about things as it keeps things from being needlessly confusing

[JerryvonKramer]

How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/

I also asked you this:

 

I have seen him in AWA though. Does he go through a transformation from 80 to his AWA days? Does he work a drastically different style?

Well?

 

Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question)

[KrisZ]

To kill this Ivan talk and I think we really should.

 

Ivan was working for the competition for one and two they would never vote for a foreign champion. The Baba reigns were all money in champ's pockets deals while on tour plus it was Baba and he was one of the made men. Jumbo never had a chance only Baba.

[Dylan Waco]

How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/

I also asked you this:

 

I have seen him in AWA though. Does he go through a transformation from 80 to his AWA days? Does he work a drastically different style?

Well?

 

Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question)

 

 

It was the biggest money territory in the U.S. where he was massively successful against all the top names. Just as he was against all the top names other places. He had also been a star in MACW. He was known and had worked all the big money territories. There would have been no need to take notes on his abilities in New York - he was working in St. Louis at the same time as noted in this thread and others multiple times. As noted in this thread and in Matysik's book by implication he was a favorite of the St. Louis office, and Sam Muchnick who was pretty much the godfather of the NWA.

[jdw]

How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/

I also asked you this:

 

I have seen him in AWA though. Does he go through a transformation from 80 to his AWA days? Does he work a drastically different style?

Well?

 

Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question)

 

He worked in an NWA territory for almost all of 1975, into early 1976.

 

He worked in an NWA territory for almost all of 1978 and 1979.

 

He worked in the capital of the NWA in 1980, holding the belt there.

 

He also got world title shots in Toronto, a prime NWA city, in 1977, and worked there in 1978 and 1979 pretty regularly with the rest of the JCP crew.

 

I don't think you understand that the core developmental period of Patera's career was spent in an NWA Territory, the same one that brought Flair to the forefront. His other plum to that point were the two runs in the WWF on top against the likes of Bruno and Backlund.

 

Take notes? Who needs to take notes. They knew he was a star, and they knew he could work. Do you really think Flair made many trip to Texas or Portland or Alabama or Mid-South or Memphis before he got the belt?

[jdw]

To kill this Ivan talk and I think we really should.

 

Ivan was working for the competition for one and two they would never vote for a foreign champion. The Baba reigns were all money in champ's pockets deals while on tour plus it was Baba and he was one of the made men. Jumbo never had a chance only Baba.

Actually, Jumbo would eventually have had a chance if the world stayed as it did in the 70s and early 80s. The world started to shift, Baba bought the AWA Title for Jumbo instead, and who knows what would have happened if there was no WWF Expansion, and no NWA Title --> JCP House World Title. My guess is that Baba would have gotten Jumbo a title turn around or two or three. The NWA didn't seem to have a problem with the title changing hands in Japan.

[KrisZ]

That would've been the only way. He would've never got a run like he did in the AWA

[jdw]

Of course. No Japanese wrestler was ever going to get a long run in the pre-1984 style territories / promotions with the NWA, AWA or WWF titles. Even the AWA Jumbo one was a bit flukey because Verne was between champs doing a transition. It's not like Baba was going to get one like that in 1977 from Verne.

[MikeCampbell]

Now that I've got a little more time on my hands, I'll expand upon my idea on page 2.

 

I think Lawler would have been a great choice. He could win it on a Monday night at the Mid South Coliseum to a huge ovation, they could even run some kind of stipulation like if Lawler loses he doesn't get another shot for X amount of days, or Flair's title versus Lawler's career.

 

Lawler tours as NWA Champion for five months, his interviews alone would make people despise him. Plus, he was still a big name from the Andy Kaufman incident on Letterman. Plus, he goes back to Memphis once a month or so and cuts an "It's good to be home" promo, and defends the title against dastardly heels like Austin Idol.

 

Lawler's piledriver can even be used to run the same broken neck angle that JCP ran with Flair, Orton, and Slater.

[KrisZ]

The thing about Lawler is that he didn't have the "look" and it's known how St. Louis felt about him and his territory as a whole.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Except we know that they ran Flair vs. Nikita in a American vs. foreigner angle just 2 years later.

But they didn't really play up Flair as an American hero in that feud. At the time Flair was playing both face and heel depending on who he was yelling at on TBS. Flair's issue with Nikita was more about Nikita attacking David Crockett then defending the Red, White, and Blue. Shit, the drunk fan who rushed the ring and tried to tackle Nikita at the Bash was more concerned about USA vs Russia then Flair was.

[KrisZ]

Flair was more about David Crockett's honor than the nation.

[JerryvonKramer]

As noted in this thread and in Matysik's book by implication he was a favorite of the St. Louis office, and Sam Muchnick who was pretty much the godfather of the NWA.

Where does Matysik talk about Patera? Or is this the St. Louis book? I've had a good flick through the early chapters of The 50 and can't see any bit on him. Caught one incidental mention on p. 21 and another on p. 60 when he refers to him as a "known national star" (among others) during his discussion of Lawler.

 

Matysik has this to say about Ted ranked at #39, pp. 178-9:

 

By the mid 1980s DiBiase was among a small handful of performers considered the best workers in the world. Most observers has noted that DiBiase seemed a logical world heavyweight champion for the National Wrestling Alliance. ... If someone like Muchnick, who loved DiBiase's breadth of ability had been in charge of the NWA around 1980, DiBiase could easily have been in the mix to move the title between the likes of Flair, Race, Rhodes and David von Erich, depending on the ole devil politics.

Also we should be careful of overstating the influence of St. Louis in 1983. Tim Hornbaker has this in his NWA book (pp. 352-3):

 

An examination of the heavyweight champions and the locations of the title swaps between 1979 and 1983 paints a perfect picture of the hierarchy of the NWA. Race was a decorated champion with encouragement from Giegel in Kansas City. Rhodes was popular nationally, but lived and breathed for the Florida office. Flair was the premier young star for Crockett. Rich and the Georgia spots assisted Barnett. Baba was also pleased with the way things had transpired.

 

...

 

The NWA's traditional leaders, Muchnick and Frank Tunney, by the summer of 1983 were no longer the sounding board of grievances or monitoring the organization's progress. ... Crockett and Giegel were the NWA's current directors. ... Giegel, by that time, was managing partner in Kansas City and St. Louis.

 

The point is that these are strong indications that by 1980 Muchnick didn't have much real power and by mid-83 what influence he did have had dissipated. I wonder if the pull of St. Louis is a bit overplayed in this thread. Giegel was running St. Louis. This fact probably hurts both DiBiase and Patera, but I think it's worth not getting carried away with the idea of St. Louis as the centre of the NWA.

 

From the account Hornbaker gives the powerbrokering was between Giegel, Crockett and Barnett. And from what Matysik says, we can infer that by 1980 things were far from running how Muchnik would have wanted.

[Dylan Waco]

Muchnick retired as a promoter on Jan 1 1982. I don't know anyone who argues his influence past that point was all that big, though he was still pulling strings behind the scenes to one degree or another for a couple of years.

 

Who in this thread is arguing that St. Louis was the "center" of the NWA in 1983? Not a troll question, as I may have legitimately missed it, but I think it's well known by most people that St. Louis was in a state of chaos by that point that resulted in a brief war for the town and Vince taking over. I think it's completely fair to say that St. Louis can be overhyped to a degree even before that point, but I also think it's pretty much universally accepted that Muchnick was the power broker for years - in 1981 he still would have been an extremely powerful voice and Kiel cards were still the closest thing to a NWA version of an MSG show. Being a Muchnick favorite would have had a lot of value for any body at that point. Enough to get someone the NWA title by itself? No. But that's hardly the only thing Patera had on his resume in 81.

 

Matysik spoke favorably about Patera on many of the podcasts with Cubeta. In the book he talks him up in Stevens bio. He actually uses Patera and Blackwell as examples of great workers and makes the argument that Stevens "represents them." It's a goofy argument but it speaks to the point that Patera was a favorite of the St. Louis office. In and of itself you could take it as an off the cuff comment - but when you see how he was booked in St. Louis it's pretty clear it wasn't.

[KrisZ]

St. Louis was in complete turmoil around the time of the Race title win as Matysik had left to form his own outlaw group. Geigel and his boys then took over and then pushed his Central States guys harder.

 

1981 was a different story as Sam was still in charge although on the way out

[Wolfman]

There is a massive difference between 81 and 83. 83 I think Race or Jack are the only real options. If for some reason they decided not to go with former NWA champ I think Ivan is a poor choice for a bunch of reasons I will cover later if pressed (at work). Valentine would be the best option in that unlikely scenario as he had previous history with Flair and had long time value in MACW.

 

81 there are many viable options. I think there Patera is the best pick though I'm biased. Again I can explain in detail later if pressed

I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice.

 

You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81.

 

If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner.

 

I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility.

 

If he hadn't been in a feud with Piper at the time, what about Greg Valentine?

[Johnny Sorrow]

There is a massive difference between 81 and 83. 83 I think Race or Jack are the only real options. If for some reason they decided not to go with former NWA champ I think Ivan is a poor choice for a bunch of reasons I will cover later if pressed (at work). Valentine would be the best option in that unlikely scenario as he had previous history with Flair and had long time value in MACW.

 

81 there are many viable options. I think there Patera is the best pick though I'm biased. Again I can explain in detail later if pressed

I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice.

 

You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81.

 

If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner.

 

I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility.

 

If he hadn't been in a feud with Piper at the time, what about Greg Valentine?

 

Later in this thread, Valentine is talked about.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Man, Funk would've been so perfect instead of Race in '83. I know circumstances probably make it unrealistic, but he's head and shoulders above the other options, in my opinion.