Wrestling Culture Episode 42

[puropotsy]

On Episode 42 of The Wrestling Culture podcast, Dylan Hales and I discuss all things Paul Heyman, the man who has done everything in wrestling. It's a really fun show in which he talk about Paul's body of work over the past 25 plus years with the only oversight I can think being that we forgot to discuss his early association with Ronald Jones, the cowboy from The Village People. But otherwise we covered it quite well. Please give it a listen and have fun.

 

Wrestling Culture Episode 42

[JerryvonKramer]

Been enjoying this so far up to early ECW:

 

1. Think the 88/89 stuff with Cornette is really great. If I'm surprised by anything it's by just how long Corny and the MX stayed as faces.

 

2. Dylan, for two guys who disagree so often, we have some real common ground on 92 WCW. Steamboat-Rude is probably in my top 5 favourite matches. Has any promotion ever had such a big gap between high quality and low box office than Kip Frey era WCW?

 

3. Zybysko over Eaton is quite a big claim. Dangerous Alliance over the Horsemen is an even bigger one.

 

4. I think Bill Watts was what I'd want to call "culturally racist". By that I mean a guy who was racist without actually realising he was or understanding how. Parallel I'd draw is to the former soccer manager Ron Atkinson. You don't need to know anything more about him than these two things: 1. he pioneeered teams with lots of black players in the 1980s, 2. years later he was sacked for using the N word off-mic when it was accidentally broadcast. He later made a documentary ostensibly trying to prove that he wasn't racist where he went around trying to understand how what he said was so offensive. My main take-away from that documentary was that a guy like that fundamentally doesn't believe he's racist, but it is so culturally ingrained in him that he doesn't realise it. He sees skin colour in a way that I never have or would, but I grew up in very different circumstances. That's not making excuses for him, it's just accounting for this odd thing that sometimes happens / happened. I think Bill Watts is a guy like that.

 

5. "In a way it was an anti-carny carny move"

[Matt D]

I wish you guys had gotten into the rumor of Heyman being the one to screw up the Lawler vs Luger unification match.

 

Also, that Sting vs Rude flash is PROBABLY the single most important night of wrestling I had as a youth watching. Eaton being a secret turncoat and trying to delay Sting is one of the most vivid memories I have from that period. The Larry stuff on WCW Chicago TV post turn is really good. he has lots of local promos where they treat him like a returning hero. The rumor I remember is that they were going to bring in Diamond Studd to the DA, not Big Josh. I know Borne certainly didn't mention anything like that in his shoot. He had the US tag belt earlier in the year with Simmons but I don't remember past that. He was out the second Watts came in though.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think any promotion has been anything like 92 WCW where the crowds were such complete dogshit and yet the quality of work week-to-week was so incredible. I'm biased because I was going to lots of shows live at that point and that was really the peak of my formative years as a fan, but there were probably ten to fifteen guys in WCW that year that had years I would rate really highly.

 

I think Larry Z was better than Eaton in 92. Granted I haven't watched a ton of DA stuff in about six years or so, but the last time I went through it I went through a whole lot of it and Larry was a real revelation. Its not a knock on Eaton who in terms of rough athleticism and big spots is as good a wrestler as anyone on earth from that period, but Larry to me jumped off the page more. Maybe that would change if I went through the stuff again which I'm overdue to do.

 

On the Horseman, I have zero problem with people rating them ahead of the DA, but in terms of presenting week-to-week, show-to-show, quality with virtually every imaginable combination I can't take anyone over the DA

[soup23]

Haven't listened to the show yet and I really love Eaton but damn if Zbysko isn't someone flying up my favorites list with the stuff I have watched in the past year. He has been so versatile whether it was his AWA stuff with Bock, him vs. Saito in 2/90, having an intense battle with Sting in March of 1991, the DA stuff, and of course the great feud vs. Regal.

[JerryvonKramer]

Watching a lot of those 92 shows on tape, and despite the fact they were sparsely attended, the crowd heat seems off the charts, especially for Rude. Were these small crowds particularly boisterous Dylan? What's your memory of them?

 

Can't think of a heel who was more over than Rude in 92, even if there were never more than 5,000 fans at once booing him.

[Dylan Waco]

At that point the people still coming were absolute diehards, so the crowds were really hot. I started going to shows in the mid-80's and still go today obviously. I'd say seven or eight of the craziest crowds I've ever been a part of were during that era. Part of that may just be the way I remember it of course.

[JNLister]

Look forward to listening to this, but in the meantime thought I'd share that I spoke to Missy Hyatt for a piece on Heyman and she was very strong on the idea that a lot of his work of getting behind a young guy and trying to both help them develop and push them with management was a response to Eddie Gilbert doing the same for him when he started out.

 

Oh, and to share that when I was a spokesman for a language campaign (pro clarity, anti jargon), I did a radio piece about the Atkinson faux pas. You would not believe how strong the warning was from the station that under no circumstances were we to actually say the word that the discussion was about!

[JerryvonKramer]

John, are you still involved in the Plain English Campaign? Where do I sign up? I mention you guys in one of my books when trying to cover Derrida and flatout call it "bordering on being unreadable". That particular bit has recently been picked up by someone else who has written a whole article around it (see here). I'd join the good fight against jargon.

 

Dylan - I don't think it's just the way you remember it because it comes across on tv. Sting gets some of the loudest pops I've ever heard in early 92,and Rude some of the loudest boos. I think as the year progresses and the belt is put on Simmons and the MVC get that monster push it dissapates a little bit. Crowd for GAB 92 is pretty quiet but then it's full of long mat-worky matches and has about half a dozen tag matches in a row with heels going over clean, so you've got to expect that.

[shoe]

I'm about an hour in. I'm taking a break and will conclude on Fri or Sat. So far this has been really interesting. The Lawler breaking Heyman's jaw comes from the fact that they were building to a scaffold match where Paul would be involved in. The day of the show he's telling Lawler he can't do it he's afraid of heights . This lead to Lawler breaking his jaw during a match. A Memphis historian probabaly has the whole story. Another thing I always remember about Heyman was their was this picture floating around of him with 2 young soap stars. The 1st one is on General Hospital, and the 2nd one was a young Kelly Rippa from Regis and Kelly.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I'm only about halfway through the pod, so if the answer to this question comes later in the pod, just tell me to shut up and keep listening.

 

Dylan mentions that Heyman's promotions have been very creative, but never drawn money. I'm sure that's the case for Windy City, but is that really the case for ECW? Didn't ECW draw money, but when it came time to possibly make the leap to the next level, they simply didn't have enough money and/or business sense to make it happen?

 

It's a common problem in the business world. You make money, but when you need to take it to the next level of growth, you either haven't made enough money to do it, or you just don't know how to do it and it crumbles. Wondering if that's the case with ECW, or if the promotion really didn't make that much money over the years.

[JNLister]

John, are you still involved in the Plain English Campaign? Where do I sign up? I mention you guys in one of my books when trying to cover Derrida and flatout call it "bordering on being unreadable". That particular bit has recently been picked up by someone else who has written a whole article around it (see here). I'd join the good fight against jargon.

Not officially still involved (worked there from 98-05). A fair bit of my writing is effectively rewriting existing stuff to make it clearer though, so I'm an unofficial campaigner!

[puropotsy]

ECW was never profitable which in my opinion had a lot to do with business structures in 90s wrestling such as syndication, ppv revenue, etc

 

I think that as far as he got it from nothing is unprecedented in modern wrestling. When WCW went out of business, it was a case of resources wasted and ineptitude destroying what should have been a sure thing. When ECW folded, it was a case to me of going further than they had any realistic right to do so given the resources that had been available to them.

 

Also, here is a pic of a young Heyman with his Motor City Madmen along with Ronald Jones, the cowboy from The Village People in the mid-1980s. Apparently Jones promoted a show they worked on.

 

[Dylan Waco]

I feel like that pic belongs in Johnny Sorrow's sig next to Lick-A-Chick

[puropotsy]

I feel like pointing to the guy next to Heyman in the plaid shirt and saying "What about that guy?!?!" a la Dave Letterman

[Cox]

Listened to this over the weekend while making various 45 minute trips across New Jersey during the weekend. It was the first time I listened to the Wrestling Culture podcast and overall I'd say it was a very interesting listen and one I will make more of an effort to listen to in the future. This was a good topic for me to listen to, since I'm a huge Paul Heyman mark.

 

To me, Paul Heyman is one of those guys who I would say is the wrestling business, for better or for worse. Just a guy who was put on this Earth to be a part of the carny con game that is pro wrestling, because his ability to adapt and survive (as was the theme of the show) made him a great fit for this business. I see him as a guy whose cons are constantly blowing up on him in one way or another, yet always finds a way back in no matter how badly it looks like he's burned all of his bridges. Eddie Gilbert fired by Continental? Go to the AWA. AWA about to die? Get into WCW. Fired by WCW once? Work indies until a new spot opens up. Fired by WCW again? Sue the company and go back to work for Eddie in ECW. Eddie out in ECW? Get the book and remold the company in his image. Etc, etc. He's a guy who always finds a new job even when you can't fathom how that will happen. Between that and his on screen work (which I have found to be consistently excellent, except during last year's HHH/Lesnar stuff that was scripted for him to look bad at the hands of Stephanie McMahon for reasons that should be obvious to anybody who has followed Heyman's WWE career), I will always be a big Paul E. fan.

 

One nitpick: the Steiners were not in the Wrestlewar '92 War Games match. They were busy on that show briefly ruining poor Takayuki Iizuka's life on the undercard. It was Ricky Steamboat and Nikita Koloff in that cage match. Normally wouldn't even bother bringing it up but since it is one of a handful of matches considered one of the greatest matches in WCW history, thought it was worth a correction.

[Dylan Waco]

Don't know how I missed The Steiners error

[shoe]

I also liked how Dylan mentioned in the old Apter mags they would push the Sabu and Misterio as these amazing wrestlers. My 1st purchases was 2 best of Sabu from RF. Then I picked up the 94 and 95 J-cup. Then followed up with best of Misterio and Liger comps.

[puropotsy]

Thanks for catching that Cox and for your comments.

 

Edit: There is a man from my hometown named Gay Cox.

[Sidebottom]

Edit: There is a man from my hometown named Gay Cox.

Not ideal.