Top Heels In The States From 76-81

[Dylan Waco]

I could have put this in the Ken Patera or WON HoF thread, but I didn't want it to get missed and this might spark some interesting side discussion on it's own.

 

I am about to start working on a Gordy List for Patera and possibly an article of some sort. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is where during Patera's peak years he would rate as a heel in the U.S. The argument about when exactly his peak was is something I would rather hash out it in his thread (or perhaps the HoF thread), but for the purposes of this thread we are looking at 76-81. Obviously I have my own thoughts about whether or not Patera is an HoFer but for the purposes of these projects I want to be as objective as possible when outlining something like where he would fit on a heel depth chart at his hottest point.

 

I am opening the floor to suggestions but a few things to note here so people will have a better idea of what I'm going for....

 

- I'm sure we can point to some obvious names worth discussing and I do not want to discourage discussion of them. But I don't just want this to be a thread about the obvious figures, so if people have ideas or other names they feel are worth discussing bring them on.

 

- The goal of the thread isn't necessarily to rate the heels in order, but by no means is that something I would discourage. I am more interested in seeing if my view that Patera was a "first tier" heel during that period is one that stands up to scrutiny or not.

 

- Even though I have my own motivations for this, I don't want people to feel like this thread has to be narrow in scope. If we end up arguing Race v. Funk or Bock v. Graham I'm not going to be bitching about people going off topic.

 

- While I don't want to say that I am totally disinterested in opinions on guys ability in the ring, that's really not the purpose of the this thread. I am trying to look at this from the angle of over all stardom and value (or perceived value) to promoters.

 

So, who were the best heels in the States from 76-81?

[khawk20]

Can someone that was a heel in 1976 and turned face before 1981 be nominated, or does it need to be someone that was a heel through the whole run?

[Dylan Waco]

Can someone that was a heel in 1976 and turned face before 1981 be nominated, or does it need to be someone that was a heel through the whole run?

I think it's unrealistic to argue for those who were only heels for the whole run. Turns happen, but that doesn't negate how hot someone was prior to the turn. I don't want to stack the deck for Patera, I'm just trying to get a feel for where he fits during his peak years, so if there was a guy who was a beast as a heel for a couple of years during that period I'd like to here the case for him

[KrisZ]

Curious at what criteria you want to base the list on.

[Dylan Waco]

Curious at what criteria you want to base the list on.

 

I should have sketched that out better in the initial post.

 

Basically I am trying to look at the full scope of what I guess we would often call "stardom." In my mind this would include, but is not necessarily limited to...

 

- Placement on cards. Was the wrestler in question getting consistent main event or meaningful matches. Were they involved in feuds and storylines that seemed to have a real impact on the business during the period?

 

- "Anchoring." Were promotions and territories built around them and/or were they in the lead heel spot in a promotion.

 

- In Demand. Were promoters all over the country trying to get dates for them? If so were these big time spots, small time spots, or a combination of both.

 

- Opponents. Were they working big name opposition consistently? Were they getting title shots when and if they were brought into territories.

 

- Titles. What titles did they hold if any and would they be considered important/relevant reigns?

 

- Drawing Power. Did the person in question pop attendance figures? If not were they working on top during hot periods that they were able to help sustain?

 

Other things like national magazine coverage (how did they do in things like PWI Awards, were they well covered, et) doesn't feel quite as important to me but can certainly be a value piece of the puzzle. Beyond that people can add in anything they feel may be relevant that I am missing

[Log]

Though he dropped off after 79 or so, I'd think Superstar Billy Graham would have to be in the discussion.

 

Greg Valentine? High profile stuff with Wahoo, Piper, Flair in Mid Atlantic. Challenger for Backlund in WWF.

 

Bockwinkel for sure, right?

 

Were the Freebirds in pretty high demand then?

[Matt D]

Not to derail immediately, but I just don't know this.

 

Who was Dusty's main heel opponent in Florida before Sullivan? He went face in what, 74? Sullivan's not the guy until 80/81 right?

 

Can we break this up by region pretty easily?

 

Andersons; Flair and Valentine; Heenan, Bockwinkel and Stevens; Graham; Mongolian Stomper; Rose and Wiskowski

 

Patterson turned face in the early 70s right?

 

Lawler was a face from 74-79?

 

Farhat wasn't really a big draw once you hit the mid 70s?

 

I've got more questions than answers I guess.

[khawk20]

Valentine and Bockwinkel are the two that immediately came to mind, as noted above by Loq.

 

Should Abdullah perhaps be included? His travelling act either helps or hurts him, plus all the time he may have spent in Japan in that time frame.

[KrisZ]

First one off the top of my head is Superstar Billy Graham

 

- Placement on cards. Was the wrestler in question getting consistent main event or meaningful matches. Were they involved in feuds and storylines that seemed to have a real impact on the business during the period?

Definitely yes and was a tremendous draw in all of the big cities for the WWWF. Had great series' with Bruno, Dusty, Mil, & Backlund and even drew with Strongbow.

 

- "Anchoring." Were promotions and territories built around them and/or were they in the lead heel spot in a promotion.

WWWF was definitely built around SBG for almost a full year and like I said did great business.

 

- In Demand. Were promoters all over the country trying to get dates for them? If so were these big time spots, small time spots, or a combination of both.

Graham was a star in St. Louis, CWF, Houston, Toronto, Detroit, NJPW and that was while he was champion. He worked other places like Memphis & GCW afterwards.

 

- Opponents. Were they working big name opposition consistently? Were they getting title shots when and if they were brought into territories.

Oh yeah I would say so.

 

- Titles. What titles did they hold if any and would they be considered important/relevant reigns?

WWWF World Heavyweight Title and one of the most memorable reigns in history.

 

- Drawing Power. Did the person in question pop attendance figures? If not were they working on top during hot periods that they were able to help sustain?

Definitely yes.

 

Other things like national magazine coverage (how did they do in things like PWI Awards, were they well covered, et) doesn't feel quite as important to me but can certainly be a value piece of the puzzle. Beyond that people can add in anything they feel may be relevant that I am missing

Graham was a Apter mag icon during 76-78 so I would say so.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here are just some names to play with.

 

National / Multi-territory stars

 

Andre (mostly face)

Billy Graham

Dusty Rhodes

Bruiser Brody

Harley Race

Stan Hansen

Terry Funk

Dory Funk Jr

Wahoo McDaniel

Adbullah the Butcher

Don Leo Jonathan

Jimmy Snuka

Ivan Koloff

The Sensational Destroyer

 

Mid Atlantic

 

Ric Flair

Greg Valentine

Blackjack Mulligan

Paul Jones

 

Georgia

 

Roddy Piper

Don Muraco

Ole Anderson

Gene Anderson

The Iron Sheik (1980)

 

Florida

 

[Don Muraco]

Pak Song

Curtis Iaukea

Ox Baker

Angelo Mosca

 

California promotions

 

Ray Stevens

Peter Maivia

The Great Mephisto (Frank Cain)

[buddy Rose]

 

PNW

 

Buddy Rose

Bull Ramos

Jesse Ventura

 

AWA

 

Nick Bockwinkel

Bobby Heenan

Ken Patera

Da Crusher

Dick the Bruiser

Crusher Blackwell

 

Detroit

Sheik

Eddie Creatchman

 

WWF

 

Lou Albano

Larry Zybysko

[Ken Patera]

Grand Wizard

Freddie Blassie

Johnny Valiant

George Steele

 

Mid-South

 

Ernie Ladd

 

Texas

Gino Hernandez

Fritz von Erich (mostly face by this stage?)

 

Memphis

Jerry Lawler

Austin Idol

Sputnik Monroe (still around in 76-7??)

[KrisZ]

"Big Cat" Ernie Ladd

 

- Placement on cards. Was the wrestler in question getting consistent main event or meaningful matches. Were they involved in feuds and storylines that seemed to have a real impact on the business during the period?

Ladd was always around main events wherever he went and his longstanding feud with Dusty Rhodes main evented several different territories.

 

- "Anchoring." Were promotions and territories built around them and/or were they in the lead heel spot in a promotion.

Ladd was a lead heel in the McGuirk territory then the fledgling Mid-South territory but Ladd was more of a free spirit and bounced around places too much to have a really long term standing as a real anchor.

 

- In Demand. Were promoters all over the country trying to get dates for them? If so were these big time spots, small time spots, or a combination of both.

Ladd worked basically every territory going throughout this period and was brought in yearly pretty much as an opponent for the WWWF title.

 

- Opponents. Were they working big name opposition consistently? Were they getting title shots when and if they were brought into territories.

Ladd was an eternal rival for Dusty Rhodes & Bill Watts plus worked all the major babyfaces of the era.

 

- Titles. What titles did they hold if any and would they be considered important/relevant reigns?

Ladd was a Florida Heavyweight champion and more importantly North American champion where he main evented Superdome shows.

 

- Drawing Power. Did the person in question pop attendance figures? If not were they working on top during hot periods that they were able to help sustain?

Ladd was always brought in as like a hired gun for the top babyface and he was a drawing card no doubt.

 

EDIT: Another thing on Ladd was that he would also be brought into territories to work against Andre early in Andre's run as a touring performer.

[khawk20]

George Steele in the AWA portion?

 

Also I'd include Valentine in the WWF section, possibly ahead of the Mid Atlantic one if you're only putting them in once, as he had two runs in the timeframe in the WWF, 1979 and in 1981, with big programs against Backlund both times.

[JerryvonKramer]

I seem to have missed a lot of Canadian guys who had decent/big/ hot runs in that period ...

 

Guys I didn't list above who are given entries in Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson's The Heels and who were active 76-81

 

Baron von Rashcke

Toru Tanaka

Mr. Fuji

Mad Dog Vachon

Killer Karl Kox

The Spoiler

Killer Tim Brooks

John Tolos (till 80)

Black Angus Campbell (apparently had a big run in Central States circa 77)

Eric the Red

Jos Leduc

The Mongolian Stomper

Masked Superstar

Pat Patterson

The Missouri Mauler

The Assassin (Jody Hamilton)

Dick Murdoch

Dr D David Schults

Ron Wright

[khawk20]

I guess while I'm at it...

 

AWA

 

Nick Bockwinkel--yep.

George Steele--lol in the AWA section at least...

Bobby Heenan--AWA and Georgia, so yep.

Ken Patera--not sure he was in the AWA between 76 and 81, save for the very end of 1981, when he just got there.

Da Crusher--straight face between 76 and 81, so no.

Dick the Bruiser--also a straight-up face in this time frame.

Crusher Blackwell--mid-card heel in the WWF, but came on as the go-to heel in the AWA upon his arrival in 1980. I'd argue his impact in the time frame wasn't what it was from 80-86 or so, but I guess he counts somewhat.

 

 

...did you just throw these names up or did you research them before making your list? Just curious.

[khawk20]

My opinion on these two:

 

Guys I didn't list above who are given entries in Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson's The Heels and who were active 76-81

Mad Dog Vachon--became a face in early 1979. Legendary heel before that but his impact was waning in North America somewhat.

Pat Patterson--could be a contender. A strong contender.

[JerryvonKramer]

George Steele in the AWA portion?

This should be WWF, I'll change it now. I originally had the list done in general regions of the country rather than by promotion and then decided to split up by promotion. Missed this.

 

I was totally unsure on The Crusher and Dick the Bruiser and when exactly they were working face. Or on precise timelines for any of the people on the list.

 

I was mainly throwing up these names to start something going in the hope that people with specialist knowledge in each of the areas could correct and refine. I'm pretty vague on this era and did the list in 10 mins or so.

 

For example, I know Pak Song was a fairly major heel in Florida, but I don't really know how major. I know Sputnik Monroe was a big deal in Memphis, but I don't know if he was still around in any meaningful way in 76-81.

 

Thought the list might generate something from the folk who know better.

[BrickHithouse]

Greg Valentine is the first guy I thought of.

 

Hansen had two strong WWF runs in '76 and '81, but I don't know if he really spent enough time in the states in that 5 year period to qualify?

[JerryvonKramer]

Hansen was on a lot of those 1980 Georgia cards I was looking at when tracing The Iron Sheik's career the other day, seemingly working babyface though.

[khawk20]

Thought the list might generate something from the folk who know better.

Well, got me to comment so I guess that worked.

 

I still like Valentine as a top pick.

[Matt D]

Were Ladd vs Dusty matches awesome?

[JerryvonKramer]

The name I want to put forward in this thread is Ivan Koloff, and it's not just because I've been looking at him a bit recently:

 

From what I've seen, he was always near the top of the card in his runs in different territories. Constant challenger to Backlund, worked Tommy Rich and Orndorff in Georgia. Had a big tag run in 1977 in Florida with Pat Patterson and then Mr. Saito during which he was also Florida champ for a time. Tagged with Ole in Georgia through 1978-9.

 

Was also champ for a time for Dick the Brusier's WWA promotion.

 

There's all sorts of random matches like this in his resume:

 

November 27, 1980 - Mid-South Superdome Extravaganza: Dusty Rhodes defeated Ivan Koloff.

 

By 81 he's starting his Crockett run.

 

I don't know if Koloff was a super-duper draw or anything, but he seems like a guy who was in constant demand and who could work in any part of the country, often against the top faces of the day in that given region.

 

Reckon Ivan is probably sold a bit short in terms of how big a star he was and in his ability to get over just about anywhere.

[BrickHithouse]

Ivan is definitely a solid choice. I don't know how well he drew but he was fucking awesome going back to '71, thru 1985 (at minimum), and all points in between, judging from what I've seen.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still like Valentine as a top pick.

Here's a question: does anyone think Valentine was a bigger heel than Harley Race in this period? Is there really an argument to support that?

 

Billy Graham has got to be at or near the top too.

 

I'm just wondering what Valentine has got going for him in terms of Dylan's criteria.

 

The Funks were still big stars in this period too and both of them seemed to work every promotion at some time or other.

 

Without looking into anything further, my guess at a top four would be something like:

 

Bock

Graham

Race

Terry Funk

 

In any order. Is there any reason to be putting either Valentine or Patera ahead of these four?

[Dylan Waco]

I think you can make a case for Patera over Graham. You could argue that Graham at his peak was better than Patera at any point but here is the thing - Patera was basically the number two heel in the WWWF during much of Graham's run IIRC and was working guys like Bruno on the regular himself in the big cities. Graham would rate ahead of Patera before he dropped the strap to Backlund, but I don't think you can say he was so far ahead of him that Patera may not have passed him on the back end (79-81). To some degree I guess it depends on how you interpret the influence of Graham during the period.

 

Funk seems like a better pick on paper because he is a former NWA Champion and his most memorable stuff stands out a ton. Was he actually a bigger heel star in North America during that period? I'm not sure sure. He's exactly the sort of person I would like to see an argument for because when I look at where Patera was working, who he was working, how in demand he was, how he was presented on the cards, et my immediate thought is that Funk is not an easy pick over him at all.

 

With Bock I'd want to go back and look at when he took the lead singles heel spot in the AWA. I wouldn't rule out Bock out of hand, but was he really an anchor during the period in question? Was he as in demand? I'm not certain this is true.

 

I think it's hard to make a case for Patera over Harley, though that's more based on general feeling about the NWA champion and this being Harley's peak than anything else.

[JerryvonKramer]

I have a few questions regarding Funk:

 

1. It seems like he'd more than usually move through an area tagging with Dory. Sometimes he'd have singles matches, sometimes Dory would. I seem to remember someone saying that their usual setup would be for Dory to take on a guy first, then Terry the next night. So ... does Dory himself have to be taken into consideration too?

2. Were the Funks always working heel? Seems to me that they were the sort of team who might work de facto face on a given night or just kinda occupy a tweener-y "these are two former champs, living legends who'll take on all-comers" sort of deal. One thing is for sure though: they crop up absolutely everywhere.

3. How much time did The Funks spend in the States and how much in Japan in the 76-81 period?

 

I think answers to those questions would help make the view of Funk a bit clearer. I see Dory and Terry from this time more as international Billy Robinson type guys than territorial staples. They'd come in, work a few dates, and then move on. How many sustained runs did they really have anywhere outside of All Japan?