WON HOF 2013 discussion

[mookeighana]

I was extremely humbled to find a ballot in the inbox of an email account that I rarely check that I use almost strictly for wrestling related correspondence.

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

[mookeighana]

Beyond that I would just say "Ken Patera"

Karl Stern on his last F4W podcast was openly asking for listeners to provide him with the case for Patera. Posted a link to the Wrestling Culture profile show and a link here.

 

I will probably be back on the The Board early next week. Is it worth the trouble for me to drag over all of the Patera stuff to his forum or not?

 

There's a two page ironic thread in the Pro Wrestling section. Start a thread in the Classic Wrestling section.

 

I have to say there's it's incredibly disappointing there's a forum for WON subscribers, which instead is so filled with trolls and mindless banter, that you have to go to other forums just to have the smallest amount of serious conversation about the WON HOF ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

Beyond that I would just say "Ken Patera"

Karl Stern on his last F4W podcast was openly asking for listeners to provide him with the case for Patera. Posted a link to the Wrestling Culture profile show and a link here.

 

I will probably be back on the The Board early next week. Is it worth the trouble for me to drag over all of the Patera stuff to his forum or not?

 

There's a two page ironic thread in the Pro Wrestling section. Start a thread in the Classic Wrestling section.

 

 

My worry is that the Classic Wrestling section gets much fewer eyes on it. On the other hand the regular wrestling section over there isn't exactly a decent spot for any serious discussion and if last year is any indication most HoF talk there consists of people trolling and/or whining about the fact that their heroes who drew sub-1986 AWA numbers as aces aren't considered stone cold locks. Maybe Alan's board?

[rovert]

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

Court Baurer shared the same anecdote about Dave on his Baurer & Pollock podcast this morning. Dave sent him his ballot in response to a years old email when Court was still in WWE. Court offered the pro-tip of bombarding Dave with (news tip) emails during this season if you want a decent chance in receiving a ballot.

 

My worry is that the Classic Wrestling section gets much fewer eyes on it. On the other hand the regular wrestling section over there isn't exactly a decent spot for any serious discussion and if last year is any indication most HoF talk there consists of people trolling and/or whining about the fact that their heroes who drew sub-1986 AWA numbers as aces aren't considered stone cold locks. Maybe Alan's board?

Each has their drawbacks as you well know. Alan's board is moderated but Dave never ever visits it - despite it being initially created for Dave and his Wrestling Observer only type subscribers when the WON-F4W merger happened. Classic Wrestling forum is largely dead. Dave visits Pro Wrestling but it is a trollfest.

[evilclown]

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

Court Baurer shared the same anecdote about Dave on his Baurer & Pollock podcast this morning. Dave sent him his ballot in response to a years old email when Court was still in WWE. Court offered the pro-tip of bombarding Dave with (news tip) emails during this season if you want a decent chance in receiving a ballot.

 

My ballot came as a reply to an email I had sent him years earlier about UFC fighter Tim Kennedy.

[W2BTD]

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

Court Baurer shared the same anecdote about Dave on his Baurer & Pollock podcast this morning. Dave sent him his ballot in response to a years old email when Court was still in WWE. Court offered the pro-tip of bombarding Dave with (news tip) emails during this season if you want a decent chance in receiving a ballot.

 

My ballot came as a reply to an email I had sent him years earlier about UFC fighter Tim Kennedy.

 

I'm dying over here.

 

My ballot was a reply to an email I sent him titled "NWA Houston Parade of Champions". That was months ago and not the last email i've sent him. Odd.

[W2BTD]

W2BTD was one of the other people I thought might have a ballot from this board which brings the number up to twelve. I still suspect there are a couple of others.

 

I completely agree with you on Colon being in the wrong category, but I think his case is so compelling that it wouldn't matter to me if I had a ballot. The Sharpes are also in the wrong category in my view.

 

Do you have the Enrique Torres record book? I can email it to you if you are interested.

 

Beyond that I would just say "Ken Patera"

I am willing to absorb any and all information on any candidate.

 

[email protected]

[W2BTD]

Beyond that I would just say "Ken Patera"

Karl Stern on his last F4W podcast was openly asking for listeners to provide him with the case for Patera. Posted a link to the Wrestling Culture profile show and a link here.

 

I will probably be back on the The Board early next week. Is it worth the trouble for me to drag over all of the Patera stuff to his forum or not?

 

There's a two page ironic thread in the Pro Wrestling section. Start a thread in the Classic Wrestling section.

 

 

My worry is that the Classic Wrestling section gets much fewer eyes on it. On the other hand the regular wrestling section over there isn't exactly a decent spot for any serious discussion and if last year is any indication most HoF talk there consists of people trolling and/or whining about the fact that their heroes who drew sub-1986 AWA numbers as aces aren't considered stone cold locks. Maybe Alan's board?

 

The Classic section will get fewer eyes, but those will also be the right eyes.

[Hollinger.]

Just went through my gmail folders to make sure I didn't have any surprises from Dave hiding somewhere. No luck.

[Bix]

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

Court Baurer shared the same anecdote about Dave on his Baurer & Pollock podcast this morning. Dave sent him his ballot in response to a years old email when Court was still in WWE. Court offered the pro-tip of bombarding Dave with (news tip) emails during this season if you want a decent chance in receiving a ballot.

 

My ballot came as a reply to an email I had sent him years earlier about UFC fighter Tim Kennedy.

 

I'm dying over here.

 

My ballot was a reply to an email I sent him titled "NWA Houston Parade of Champions". That was months ago and not the last email i've sent him. Odd.

 

Mine was a reply to an email asking him and Bryan about the "demon voice" at UFC 159.

[kjh]

I'm not trolling, but is Kensuke Sasaki a significantly better candidate than "bottom feeder" Batista? From a drawing perspective, the success of WrestleMania 21 from WWE lucking into the Batista face turn angle, is a more impressive high spot than anything Sasaki did in his career, and nowadays it's rare for a new star to show such a significant box office boost, even if it was just for six months or so. I wouldn't disagree that Sasaki was a better worker at his peak, but Batista usually delivered when he was motivated and in with a major name, such as Triple H, The Undertaker and John Cena.

 

To defend Sasaki a bit, I went to the July 2005 NOAH Dome show and it was clear that the drawing match was more Kobashi vs. Sasaki than Kawada vs. Misawa, given the respective buzz before the matches. Of course, at that point Kobashi was the biggest star of the four, but Sasaki came off as his equal on that night.

[evilclown]

W2BTD was one of the other people I thought might have a ballot from this board which brings the number up to twelve. I still suspect there are a couple of others.

 

I completely agree with you on Colon being in the wrong category, but I think his case is so compelling that it wouldn't matter to me if I had a ballot. The Sharpes are also in the wrong category in my view.

 

Do you have the Enrique Torres record book? I can email it to you if you are interested.

 

Beyond that I would just say "Ken Patera"

I am willing to absorb any and all information on any candidate.

 

[email protected]

 

I can't find mine. Can you send to [email protected].

 

Send any other record books while you're at it!

[kjh]

Dave is goofy like that. When he sent me a ballot this year (first time voting), he responded to an email that I sent him in May 2010 about "UFC Impact on WWE PPVs".

Could the CHIKARA time rift have opened up a portal which split the Dave's into two? Is one treadmill mullet leather jacket Dave while the other is just has kids and Rousey? The mysteries abound.

Court Baurer shared the same anecdote about Dave on his Baurer & Pollock podcast this morning. Dave sent him his ballot in response to a years old email when Court was still in WWE. Court offered the pro-tip of bombarding Dave with (news tip) emails during this season if you want a decent chance in receiving a ballot.

 

My ballot came as a reply to an email I had sent him years earlier about UFC fighter Tim Kennedy.

 

I'm dying over here.

 

My ballot was a reply to an email I sent him titled "NWA Houston Parade of Champions". That was months ago and not the last email i've sent him. Odd.

 

Mine was a reply to an email asking him and Bryan about the "demon voice" at UFC 159.

 

Mine was a reply to an email informing him that WWE would no longer fund Tammy Sytch's future rehab needs.

[Hollinger.]

Mine's gonna be a reply to an email showing him how to set up a mailing list.

[kjh]

I would like to hear people's thoughts on Kinji Shibuya and Wilbur Snyder. I think both are interesting candidates but neither get talked about all that much. I've done a good bit of digging and research on both over the last couple of years and I'm pretty confident I would vote for Shibuya, but less confident about Snyder. I'd be curious if anyone here has paid much attention to them and what conclusions they have drawn if they have.

At the time, I thought Dave's obituary for Kinji Shibuya (which I could send to you if you haven't read it) outlined a strong case for the WON HOF. He seemed in demand in many territories, almost always working on top, including a hotbed like San Francisco (only Stevens and Patterson were bigger stars, IIRC).

 

Snyder seemed to peak early with his US title runs (various versions) and his runs with the Omaha version of the World title in the late 50s / early 60s. He was clearly one of the biggest stars in the business from 1956-1963. I think the knock on him was that he bought into the Indianapolis territory in the mid 1960s and settled there, where he was always positioned behind Dick The Bruiser.

[evilclown]

Mine's gonna be a reply to an email showing him how to set up a mailing list.

Spit take.

[soup23]

I would chance putting the Patera thread in the pro wrestling section Dylan. Dave gave a good response the other day in the ironic thread Rovert mentioned in which he didn't dismiss Patera as a candidate at all and emphasized the importance of being the Missouri and IC champion at the time Patera was.

[Dylan Waco]

I am working til about 8 tonight, but anyone who wants the Torres record book hit me up with a PM and I will pass it along. Most everything else I have on major candidates is stuff saved off of boards or sites, but if people are curious about details on a particular candidate I may have something saved so just ask

[W2BTD]

I'm not trolling, but is Kensuke Sasaki a significantly better candidate than "bottom feeder" Batista? From a drawing perspective, the success of WrestleMania 21 from WWE lucking into the Batista face turn angle, is a more impressive high spot than anything Sasaki did in his career, and nowadays it's rare for a new star to show such a significant box office boost, even if it was just for six months or so. I wouldn't disagree that Sasaki was a better worker at his peak, but Batista usually delivered when he was motivated and in with a major name, such as Triple H, The Undertaker and John Cena.

 

To defend Sasaki a bit, I went to the July 2005 NOAH Dome show and it was clear that the drawing match was more Kobashi vs. Sasaki than Kawada vs. Misawa, given the respective buzz before the matches. Of course, at that point Kobashi was the biggest star of the four, but Sasaki came off as his equal on that night.

I'll give a quick response because I have to run.

 

I think two obvious advantages for Sasaki are longevity & workrate. Reasonable minds can disagree on work, but I think Sasaki is world's better than Batista in ring. Batista is a guy who could be carried, while Sasaki has had great matches with a wide variety of opponents, both in tags and in singles. And at all stages of his career.

 

When I look at Sasaki, he is a guy who ticks all three criteria boxes at a level right below elite, especially if you put any stock into his Diamond Ring/Kensuke Office stuff as a trainer (I do). Batista maybe ticks the box as a draw, but not only was it a short period of time, but also hard to quantify due to the era of WWE he was a part of where the promotion itself was marketed as the draw.

 

I just don't view Batista as a serious contender. For me, if you aren't a great worker and lack longevity or influence, you need to be an elite draw. He wasn't.

[Dylan Waco]

Longevity is something that gets talked about a lot in HoF discussion but I'm not all that sure what people mean by it. I don't think it's a meaningless term mind you, but I do think it's a term that means radically different things to different people. I want to respond in a longer form to W2BTD, but I think it's worth exploring exactly what longevity means in this context.

[jdw]

I would like to hear people's thoughts on Kinji Shibuya and Wilbur Snyder. I think both are interesting candidates but neither get talked about all that much. I've done a good bit of digging and research on both over the last couple of years and I'm pretty confident I would vote for Shibuya, but less confident about Snyder. I'd be curious if anyone here has paid much attention to them and what conclusions they have drawn if they have.

Shibuya had a good write up when he died, which highlighted his role in good promotional periods for both the NoCal promotion and the SoCal one. He does come across as a viable candidate after it, which really wasn't even Dave's intent when writing it up.

 

Synder is probably the best example out there of someone who needs a detailed record book (along with clippings) to get a better view of his career. It would help if a Destroyer-amount of his work were available to get a gauge on whether he could also go. I'm always open to him, but need more.

[W2BTD]

Longevity is something that gets talked about a lot in HoF discussion but I'm not all that sure what people mean by it. I don't think it's a meaningless term mind you, but I do think it's a term that means radically different things to different people. I want to respond in a longer form to W2BTD, but I think it's worth exploring exactly what longevity means in this context.

Longevity as a top level player as compared to Batista.

 

Sasaki got his first big singles push in 1997, but was a major player in New Japan as parts of tag teams with Hase & Hawk from about '90 or '91. He main evented everywhere he went from that point until last year when he was injured and out of action. So that's about 15 years as a main eventer as a single, and well over 20 as a major star. You could even stretch his run of being a "major player" all the way in to the late 80's if you are being generous if you count his time in Puerto Rico where he teamed with Pogo. Sasaki was the top guy at various points for NJPW, AJPW, & NOAH, during various levels of business.

 

Batista broke in from developmental in 2002 doing the undercard gimmick with D-Von, and joined Evolution in 2003. He finished up in 2010. So while his biggest main event was bigger than Sasaki's biggest main event, he was a top guy for a far shorter period of time.

 

So that's where i'm coming from with longevity vs Batista. Combined with what I consider a massive, massive advantage is workrate, I think Sasaki is a far stronger candidate than Batista.

[jdw]

Sasaki got his first big singles push in 1997, but was a major player in New Japan as parts of tag teams with Hase & Hawk from about '90 or '91.

His singles puch actually started back in 1994: final in the G1 losing to Mr. August, then headlining the Dome in January challenging Hash for the IWGP Title. Since Hash was ripe to lose the title at this point (having originally won it back in 9/93), there was some fear that this would be Sasaki's turn: Hash had the IWGP, Mutoh had held it before (and the NWA Title), and Chono had held the NWA Title (as well as winning 3 of the 4 G1 tourneys). There was some fear that it was Sasaki's turn to join them.

 

Luckily for us, Hash beat him because the title was heading to Mutoh in May.

 

Anyway, Sasaki's singles push started when he began moving away from Hawk. They were going Hash --> Mutoh (5/95) --> Chono (1/96), with Mutoh also winning the G1. The first two happened, but after the G1 there was that little issue of Takada and UWFi, which changed things. Not sure if Sasaki was going to of winning the title earlier than 1997 and the that was another thing changed by Takada, or if they wanted to make him wait. Mostly Chono got screwed by Takada coming in, but I digress.

[W2BTD]

Sasaki got his first big singles push in 1997, but was a major player in New Japan as parts of tag teams with Hase & Hawk from about '90 or '91.

His singles puch actually started back in 1994: final in the G1 losing to Mr. August, then headlining the Dome in January challenging Hash for the IWGP Title. Since Hash was ripe to lose the title at this point (having originally won it back in 9/93), there was some fear that this would be Sasaki's turn: Hash had the IWGP, Mutoh had held it before (and the NWA Title), and Chono had held the NWA Title (as well as winning 3 of the 4 G1 tourneys). There was some fear that it was Sasaki's turn to join them.

 

Luckily for us, Hash beat him because the title was heading to Mutoh in May.

 

Anyway, Sasaki's singles push started when he began moving away from Hawk. They were going Hash --> Mutoh (5/95) --> Chono (1/96), with Mutoh also winning the G1. The first two happened, but after the G1 there was that little issue of Takada and UWFi, which changed things. Not sure if Sasaki was going to of winning the title earlier than 1997 and the that was another thing changed by Takada, or if they wanted to make him wait. Mostly Chono got screwed by Takada coming in, but I digress.

 

How many Dome main events did he have in total? I'm familiar with his "second peak" so to speak, but i'm cloudy on all of his Dome main events during his first peak.

[Dylan Waco]

Torres record books were just emailed to those who wanted them.