WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Bix]

I don't think anyone should get in on two years of work unless it's revolutionary in nature a la Satoru Sayama.

 

I'm highly confident that Tanahashi will eventually get in and will eventually deserve to be in. But why the rush for coronation when there's plenty of deserving candidates who aren't still in the prime of their careers.

Because Dave picked too many fad-happy voters.

[Bix]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

-Work alone isn't getting Tanahashi in,

 

-But it certainly could. I know this is going to open a gigantic can of worms, and I realize there is probably no good reason to do this because i'm clearly on the wrong side of the proverbial tracks, but sometimes on this site there is a severe lack of self awareness of the niche fetishism for people like Rose, Dundee, etc.

 

If you asked me if i'd rather watch my house burn down or watch a typical Dundee southern style punch fest, i'd think hard before settling in for the match. Memphis is about as appealing to me as GLOW or lightning tube death matches (hint: I don't like those things), so i'll chalk that up to style.

 

But Rose I like, he's fine as a small territory heel, actually very good in fact, but don't pretend as if Rose as some slam dunk awesome top ten worker is a universal opinion. It isn't.

 

Tanahashi is churning out non stop ****+ star stuff at a pace that hasn't been matched since Misawa/Kobashi. This run is legendary, and he wasn't chopped liver before it started. He's on a completely different level than somebody like Bill Dundee or Regal, and I love Regal. But Tanahashi's worst singles match this year rival's Regal's best stuff ever.

 

Anyway, this is all subjective. I feel like Dylan does when he wanders over to "my" side of the tracks. My post probably reads as a troll, but that's not the intent. I just don't think the work of people like Dundee or Rose is what your typical HOF voter looks at as HOF level great. Tanahashi's stuff is.

 

Rose being a genius at working isn't exactly a contentious opinion.

[jdw]

If you asked me if i'd rather watch my house burn down or watch a typical Dundee southern style punch fest, i'd think hard before settling in for the match. Memphis is about as appealing to me as GLOW or lightning tube death matches (hint: I don't like those things), so i'll chalk that up to style.

I get that when I watch Tanahashi matches: they bore the shit out of me about as much as the 10/98 & 6/99 AJPW Misawa vs Kobashi matches do... not to mention their 3/03 match in NOAH. And I'm kind of just a bit of a small All Japan fan.

 

When I've forced myself to watch pimped ***** Tanahashi matches, I've yet to see one that I would give ****+ to if I still gave a shit about sprinkling snowflakes. They just strike me as masturbatory excursions.

 

To me, people waking off to Tanahashi is little different from what we got when people were circling jerking to Davey Richards a couple of years ago, and to Joe & American Dragon & Co. a few years before that.

 

And it's not that I don't enjoy the occasional "modern wrestling" match. I've been to a fair number of PWG matches live that I thought were perfectly entertaining. I just wasn't sprinkling ***** or ****1/2 on any of them. I mean, matches can be plenty entertaining without having to say it's the best lay that you've ever had.

 

John

[KrisZ]

I like Tanahashi more than most here.....I was someone who championed him being pushed to the main events 10 years ago but his time isn't now. The main problem is the rules of the system and that's not going to change so he is someone like Angle who benefits from those rules.

 

I am definitely going to be curious to see how a 45-year-old Tanahashi's career looks compared to the 35-year-old one.

[goodhelmet]

Maybe he will end up in the cockroach that is TNA and turn the company around like Angle did.

[Matt D]

I agree. You are on the wrong side of the tracks.

That this side of the tracks has plenty of room for both Will and I means that it's a hell of a side of the tracks.

[evilclown]

I don't understand the mental gymnastics people are doing to pretend Tanahashi is some kind of major draw. The truth is, the wrestling business is still in the dumps in Japan. This guy is playing to crowds that would have made Muta commit ritual suicide, let alone Inoki or Baba. Has he even been able to convince an audience that any of his matches are big matches?

 

And yet he's the "best big match wrestler of all-time"?

 

Really? Better than Flair or Buddy Rogers or Gus Sonnenburg or Jim Londos or Misawa? Is this a historical wrestling Hall of Fame or not?

[jdw]

You have to understand that working in the big leagues is different than that indy stuff Londos. The quality of work is entirely different.

 

John

[KrisZ]

The fact that they have to run G1 Climax shows at Korakuen Hall should tell you what state Japanese pro wrestling is still in. I posted the results dump earlier and even those trumped up numbers were still not setting the world on fire.

[evilclown]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

[Matt D]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

 

What does that make Cena?

[evilclown]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

 

What does that make Cena?

 

Based on a basketball HOF analogy? I don't know. Dwayne Wade? A clear notch below Jordan and James and the like. And, to be fair, maybe Tanahashi is Rip Hamilton. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[jdw]

The fact that they have to run G1 Climax shows at Korakuen Hall should tell you what state Japanese pro wrestling is still in. I posted the results dump earlier and even those trumped up numbers were still not setting the world on fire.

Wait... you're kidding me. They didn't run 5+ nights at Sumo Hall like they did from 1993-96? A freaking HOFer at the peak of his "I'm A Big Fucking Draw" prime who can only anchor the promotion to 2 cards at Sumo Hall, one which is woefully short of a sellout and the other that probably was a worked sellout?

 

Wait... what does that say for Koshinaka main eventing three straight G1 nights at Sumo Hall in 1996, all of them fine matches?

 

"Sheeeeeeeeeeeetttttt!"

[Timbo Slice]

He ain't even Harold Minor.

 

Look, like many other wrestlers of his ilk, Tanahashi's style gets over with a lot of modern fans because he's active in the ring. It's aesthetically pleasing to watch him wrestle because he's always looking to fill time with something stylish. Meltzer has loved this ever since he first saw Toyota work, which begat his love for Angle, which begat his love for Tanahashi and made him make the claim that his feud with Okada is up there with the greatest of all time. That's the style he's loved for 20 years. So when younger fans look to him for sagely advice, that's where you get this widespread idea that Tanahashi = Misawa or Kobashi or what have you. And those minds aren't going to be changed. It's not even about being on one side of the tracks or the other. It's about not even crossing them to see how the other side is living.

[jdw]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

 

"Hey man... leave me out of this shit!"

-Harold Miner

[W2BTD]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

 

It's a strawman, because I have no issue with that era of All Japan, and I in fact agree with your assessment of it as the gold standard of modern wrestling.

 

I disagree with the rest of your thoughts. I feel you are seriously underrating Tanahashi. From that era, i'd rate him below Misawa & Kobashi for sure, and I would accept an argument for about a half dozen others, but would respectfully disagree and take Tanahashi over the rest. I believe he's nipping at the heels of Misawa & Kobashi at this point, and I also think 2011-current New Japan is now nipping at the heels of early 90's All Japan as well in terms of overall quality.

 

If you don't think he "has shit" on Kikuchi, that's fine, but we're just way far apart on this then. And I like Kikuchi a lot.

 

Tanahashi is an all time great. This run of quality rivals anybody, any time.

[Timbo Slice]

Based on what? What rates him nipping at the heels of Misawa or Kobashi?

[W2BTD]

Based on what? What rates him nipping at the heels of Misawa or Kobashi?

Nipping at the heels of those two may be a bit strong, but he's getting there.

 

Honestly this is pointless, as I knew it would be.

 

I can list a bunch of matches, and you'll tell me they were shit.

 

This all comes down to preference, but the fact is, he's going to get in (whether it's this year or next or the one after), and it will be predicated mostly on his work. Because that's the style of work the HOF workers generally prefer. And he's a top level worker who churns out classic after classic, every time out, and is on a historical run of doing so.

[jdw]

I disagree with the rest of your thoughts. I feel you are seriously underrating Tanahashi. From that era, i'd rate him below Misawa & Kobashi for sure, and I would accept an argument for about a half dozen others, but would respectfully disagree and take Tanahashi over the rest. I believe he's nipping at the heels of Misawa & Kobashi at this point, and I also think 2011-current New Japan is now nipping at the heels of early 90's All Japan as well in terms of overall quality.

"I'll be damned..."

 

*glares*

 

"Aw fuck me..."

[goodhelmet]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"What does Tanahashi do better than us in the ring?"

[jdw]

This all comes down to preference, but the fact is, he's going to get in (whether it's this year or next or the one after), and it will be predicated mostly on his work. Because that's the style of work the HOF workers generally prefer. And he's a top level worker who churns out classic after classic, every time out, and is on a historical run of doing so.

He works a style that HOF workers prefer?

 

I didn't know he works like Steamboat. Or Stevens. Or Destroyer. Or Jumbo. Or Kawada in his prime. Or Debiase (who in 1996 got in for his work). Or...

 

Serious, how many HOF Workers work like Tanahashi?

 

I mean, I helped select and/or voter for the overwhelming majority of the HOF Workers in the WON HOF. There's a slight disconnect if say 50%+ (i.e. generally prefer) don't strike me as working Tanahashi-style.

 

John

[Timbo Slice]

I don't think Tanahashi's best matches are shit. They aren't close to the level of all-time work, but they aren't shit.

 

Stylistically, there are issues, but it's more about the fact that his work is being seen on a level of work that is so high above the current level of wrestling that it's really not close. That's not so much a knock on Tanahashi as it is on a lot of modern wrestling as a whole. Tanahashi just happens to be the biggest example of it on the biggest stage in Japanese wrestling, which has been looking for an upturn in business for over a decade. He's seen as the reason for that turnaround. That's true. But it's not because of the quality of his work in the ring.

[evilclown]

It's a strawman, because I have no issue with that era of All Japan, and I in fact agree with your assessment of it as the gold standard of modern wrestling.

How does the fact you agree with this point make it a "strawman" argument? Do you even understand what that means? It's a legitimate argument, made in good faith, that addresses your point directly. It's not a "strawman."

 

on a historical run of doing so.

What makes this a "historical run?" What does historical even mean in this context?

 

What is the standard for determining who is eligible to vote? Some of the voters seem to be proxy votes sought out to validate certain opinions. They don't seem to be people grounded in a historical appreciation of wrestling.

[jdw]

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't say they were shit.

 

But I also tended to get tired of matches pimped to me as ***** classics being sub **** when watching them, or feeling tedious to watch in the sense of "Hero-Tozawa and Generico-Ricochet were more entertaining than this shit" and it wasn't like I was rating those ****1/2 matches.

 

Of course my standards are a bit fucked up: I got to see those All Japan guys live back in their prime.

[evilclown]

I don't think they are shitty matches either. I've enjoyed plenty of the NJPW stuff people have pointed me towards. But I haven't thought of them as classics. Certainly not historically great.