WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Dylan Waco]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

The people most actively defending Tanahashi here and elsewhere are defending him on work. Bryan is a work candidate. Most people don't want to engage the idea of Tanahashi's drawing power, because it's largely a myth of perception manufactured by those who really enjoy him. That's not to say he was a bad draw from beginning to end, but the idea that he is an HoF draw is transparently comical on it's face.

[jdw]

"Bret vs Taker vs Desiel turned around the WWF's business in 1996. To say it's not a HOF worthy turnaround doesn't cheapen the turnaround. It just says that it wasn't a mind number turnaround."

 

John, could you elaborate on this point? I ask out of interest and not disagreement

The WWF's house show business was the shits when Diesel was champ, continuing a long mostly downward trend since the Hogan-Sid program at the beginning of 1992. House show business went up suddenly when they programed the Bret-Taker-Desiel feud. The related PPV's (Taker vs Bret at the Rumble and Bret-Nash at the Feb IYH) also show growth in buys.

 

People like to give Shawn credit for much of that. Problem is that Mania didn't grow from the prior year, and Shawn-Nash did less than Bret-Nash, and Shawn's PPV buys overall through the year were kind of... well... shitty. Shawn as Champ did continue the house show turn around, and build on it to a decent degree. But...

 

The turn around started with Bret-Taker-Diesel. It then faded eventually under Shawn's watch, and as WCW grew.

 

On a level it's similar to Flair-Savage in WCW that year. The turn around for WCW's long house show issues started with the Savage-Flair program after Starcade. It wasn't lights out business, nor close to what they when they eventually hit their peak. But it was the start.

 

John

[jdw]

What did he say about Wagner?

Basically "well he got in, I saw him live and he was okay, but nothing special a all. His kid is better." Obviously not a direct quote but that was essentially the gist of it

 

Sr. was born in 1936. One wonders how old he was when Dave saw him "live", and if it was in any setting to show whether Wagner could work or not.

[jdw]

And to reference to a jdw post from a few pages back: poor Cien Caras but if he was paired with his brothers as a trio I think that it would make it even WORSE for him.

With Lucha voters? Why? Add what they've done as a group along with what Universo and Mascara Ano have done to what Cien Caras has done, you'd think it would be a lock. :/

[jdw]

I want to get some work done on Cien Caras. I think Steve votes for him too and considers him a no-brainer so we should be able to put together something strong.

Back in 2010, Steve told me who would vote for Los Hermanos Dinamita. He was a little more right guy in the right place in the right time with respect to Cien Caras.

 

Seriously... I think you two could do epic work on Los Hermanos Dinamita because collectively there's a lot of shit there for the three. If you've got Steve's endorsement when publishing it, you're likely going to get a ton of support.

 

Of course I think we all agree there are some other trios who should get in as well, and it's really something you and Steve should put your heads together on.

[WingedEagle]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

The people most actively defending Tanahashi here and elsewhere are defending him on work. Bryan is a work candidate. Most people don't want to engage the idea of Tanahashi's drawing power, because it's largely a myth of perception manufactured by those who really enjoy him. That's not to say he was a bad draw from beginning to end, but the idea that he is an HoF draw is transparently comical on it's face.

 

Not going to reread every post here on Tanahashi, but it strikes me as inaccurate to say that people defending him here have done so while staying silent on him as a draw. I don't care what you think of him as a draw as its irrelevant. But it is relevant to plainly ignore that facet of his candidacy in arguing for or against him for any reason, much less because it lets you slot Bryan somewhere. Especially given that Bryan is hardly someone who needs such tenuous shortcuts to support him based on work.

[Dylan Waco]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

The people most actively defending Tanahashi here and elsewhere are defending him on work. Bryan is a work candidate. Most people don't want to engage the idea of Tanahashi's drawing power, because it's largely a myth of perception manufactured by those who really enjoy him. That's not to say he was a bad draw from beginning to end, but the idea that he is an HoF draw is transparently comical on it's face.

 

Not going to reread every post here on Tanahashi, but it strikes me as inaccurate to say that people defending him here have done so while staying silent on him as a draw. I don't care what you think of him as a draw as its irrelevant. But it is relevant to plainly ignore that facet of his candidacy in arguing for or against him for any reason, much less because it lets you slot Bryan somewhere. Especially given that Bryan is hardly someone who needs such tenuous shortcuts to support him based on work.

 

What is the point of this post?

 

If you aren't going to read what was written, how can you possibly know what is or isn't inaccurate? If you don't care what I think of him as a draw, why are you responding to something I wrote at all that is directly related to the subject? Why are you lying and claiming I ignored the drawing facet of his candidacy, when I am one of the few people who has discussed it at all in any detail in the months leading up to the vote?

[jdw]

I asked this in the thread for the latest WC podcast, but I will ask it here - has there ever been an ace with a spottier drawing record inducted into the HoF? On the surface I would argue Michaels, but his case wasn't entirely related to his run as an ace.

As an ace?

 

Sasaki's is spotty as an ace.

 

Bret's was spotty as an ace.

 

Tenryu's was actually shitty as an ace. Excellent as an Outsider Opponent (going into New Japan) or Top Rival (to Jumbo in All Japan since Jumbo really was the one Baba pushed as the Ace regardless of what we want to project onto it), but just flat out dogshit as an ace in SWS and WAR. So Tenryu has just about the oddest drawing record of any guy up there: a crapload of good drawing, which a lot of can be pointed to him as a guy worthy of a lot of the credit. But as an Ace he didn't really draw well at all.

 

To a degree similar to Savage, though at least Savage had that stretch where Hogan was out and Savage was Ace for a brief period. That period isn't as long as we think since Hogan did comeback and pretty much be the Ace when he was back on the house shows, and that Hogan-Bossman feud was doing big business even without Hogan having the belt. Savage might have been Ace for 4 months maybe. The PPVs between the two Manias while Savage was champ pretty much reflected that Hogan was the Ace.

 

Taker's case as the Ace is probably pretty weak. We can point to a lot of things where he Drew, and to a degree we might be able to say that he's been the Ace-Draw of Mania a good number of times once The Streak took off. But he hasn't been an Ace a ton. His run after Mania in 1997 wasn't good. I don't think his brief runs as Ace of one of the programs after the Brand Split were that successful. His best stretch was as an opponent for Austin at the peak of the company. He'd be an interesting one to find.

 

Savage, Tenryu and Taker are all interesting in that sense. There's a lot we can point to as drawing, and that "they" (or the circumstances around them like Mania+Streak or Tenryu vs New Japan) were key in drawing. But a lot of their drawing was as a terrific opponent, and not much of it was as an ace.

 

Don't even get started with Kawada. And Akiyama's is largely the same thing.

[Dylan Waco]

How do those guys compare to Tanahashi?

[WingedEagle]

EDIT: LOL. Had a lot more to say, but I forgot I was arguing with the arbiter of honesty, credibility and all other virtues in these parts. I'm comfortable with what I've read. Sorry if you're not.

[mookeighana]

We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

I think this is a key point. How can he be compared to other wrestlers from the past decade or so like Akiyama, Sasaki, Nagata or Suzuki when the numbers have been so heavily worked? With that NOAH Dome Show in 2004 that drew 58,000, the rumour was that the real number of ticket sales was 20,000, so how do you wade through all that and figure out whether Akiyama was a better draw than Tanahashi? Folks are relying on Dave to report the real numbers. On the Wrestling Culture podcast, Dylan questioned why Tanahashi's candidacy wasn't debated as heavily as John Cena's and I would argue that people simply don't get as much backstage knowledge or business details about Japan as they do about the US.

 

Even if the Noah dome shows were heavily papered, they still filled the dome, which similarly papered NJPW shows at the time didn't.

 

One thing I'd like to emphasize about the NJPW attendance data I looked at was the "core attendance" metric which looked at the shows between 1,000 and 10,000. It still represents 85% of the shows each year (80 to 120).

 

Two things:

a) The number of shows in this range has been dropping: about 117 (1999-2004) to 90 (2007-2012)

The average attendance at these shows has dropped: 3,000 (1999-2004) to 2,400 (2007-2012)

 

Now, maybe they've been working the attendance of all of these shows too, but to me, what I see is a company that is cutting back in the mid-sized range because they can't draw as well as they did. Honestly, beyond arguing about papering big, big shows (which really barely move the annual average, but I did the "core attendance" metric to specifically avoid that debate) I would expect the core metrics to improve if they were in a resurgence. It's too early to tell now if 2013 was a turning point.

 

The other thing I'd say is just that Tanahashi had to win 68 voters. Every single modern candidate except Ken Patera, A.J. Styles, Bob Armstrong, Batista beat that. Jimmy Snuka for Japanese HOF!

[jdw]

 

I didn't realize that Matsunaga was going to be counted against the Japan standard (it does make sense) but it is a bit startling when you realize he actually got the second least number of votes among all non-wrestlers. I voted for him, but I didn't vote in the rest of Japan - I wonder how Dave counted that -- a higher bar for Japan or just a free vote?

 

I threw my ballot up in twitter (@mookieghana) too.

 

Edit: updated with Tamura #s.

That's interesting in how the non-wrestlers are counted. I don't think that was clear in prior years, was it?

[Matt D]

Don't people usually credit Savage vs Flair for turning around WCW business in 96?

[ohtani's jacket]

Even if the Noah dome shows were heavily papered, they still filled the dome, which similarly papered NJPW shows at the time didn't.

That's one way to look at it I suppose, but more people wanting to see Akiyama work for free than pay to see Tanahashi wrestle makes drawing comparisons tough.

[jdw]

I am alarmed that Owen Hart got 74 votes.

The one positive of him handing out so many ballots are that the candidacies of Moolah and Ventura are effectively dead without some major push... like Jesse dropping dead (which might get him in).

[mookeighana]

 

I didn't realize that Matsunaga was going to be counted against the Japan standard (it does make sense) but it is a bit startling when you realize he actually got the second least number of votes among all non-wrestlers. I voted for him, but I didn't vote in the rest of Japan - I wonder how Dave counted that -- a higher bar for Japan or just a free vote?

 

I threw my ballot up in twitter (@mookieghana) too.

 

Edit: updated with Tamura #s.

That's interesting in how the non-wrestlers are counted. I don't think that was clear in prior years, was it?

 

Frankly, I was confused how non-wrestlers were going to be counted this year when I submitted my ballot. Dave never outright explained the non-wrestler piece (regarding which group they were part) -- I deduced it based on how he assigned percentages. Honestly, I do wonder how they dealt with Japan because I did vote for Matsunaga but I didn't vote for anything else in Japan (and wasn't trying to "no vote" either -- I just thought the non-wrestler thing was it's own piece.)

 

I know Dave works very hard on the issue but every year he ends up leaving one or two results out of the final results tally (Koloff & Tamura this year) and I can't help but be a little suspicious about how perfectly ballots get counted. From doing the last 8+ DVDVR sets, I know very well how difficult it is to get ballots from a hundred people right before the due date and try to allign everything without error.

[Dylan Waco]

EDIT: LOL. Had a lot more to say, but I forgot I was arguing with the arbiter of honesty, credibility and all other virtues in these parts. I'm comfortable with what I've read. Sorry if you're not.

So basically you are a coward. Good riddance scrub

[Indikator]

What did he say about Wagner?

Basically "well he got in, I saw him live and he was okay, but nothing special a all. His kid is better." Obviously not a direct quote but that was essentially the gist of it

 

Sr. was born in 1936. One wonders how old he was when Dave saw him "live", and if it was in any setting to show whether Wagner could work or not.

 

I can't find him on any California cards I have so maybe he just saw him in AJPW. Seems unlikely, doesn't it?

 

Btw, I should have been clearer earlier, me wondering about Maeda and Carnera was more about their respective timeframes as superstars. Maybe at some point people will make a project to determine when which wrestler was a superstar or an ace of a promotion.

[jdw]

How do those guys compare to Tanahashi?

As an Ace?

 

I would be hard pressed to find positive drawing items for Sasaki as an Ace. As an opponent, sure. As the guy just lucky enough to be NJPW's representative against Kawada rather than the more over Mutoh or the "Inoki's just fucking killed his NJPW Career because he's a fucking idiot" Hashimoto? No... I really can't give Sasaki any credit for those two Dome shows drawing. Which is similar to having a tough time giving Kawada a shitload of credit for those two Domes drawing: he carried the flag for AJPW, but we all know that Misawa if he were still in AJPW would have been a bigger deal vs NJPW, and Kobashi in 2000 still in AJPW would have bigger deal vs NJPW than Kawada.

 

That's the problem with Sasaki. It's tough to find acey things for him that are positives relative to what others did in the ace role, or what others could have done in the role he was in at the time.

 

With Tanahashi, while I don't find his drawing mind altering like some do, I think we would agree that the current uptick *is* a positive. He is the Ace in the company, unless we think he's passed it on. So there is a positive.

 

It's quite possible that it's similar to Hart drawing in the Hart-Taker-Diesel feud, or against Yoko, and those good draws here and there against Lawler: they're good relative to the crap around them. They're not Hogan level before him. They're not Austin level afterwards. They're a positive for Bret's candidacy, but not a Major Positive.

 

Which is why I was in that wait-and-see camp with Tanahashi. There are positives in the NJPW drawing at the moment. They're not really earth shattering yet on a historic level, and we don't know how long they'll be sustained. But it is a positive at the moment.

 

Of course there's that 2007-2011 (or however long it went into) where Tanahashi was the co-Ace with Nak, and the company drew for shit. That's a negative. Not a short one either.

[jdw]

Don't people usually credit Savage vs Flair for turning around WCW business in 96?

I think I just said that above.

[Matt D]

Ah, you did. I was looking at the Ace post. There's a lot of text to parse here.

 

Unrelated but does Taker (and maybe currently Brock) function more as an Andre-in-the-territories sort of special attraction right now?

[WingedEagle]

EDIT: LOL. Had a lot more to say, but I forgot I was arguing with the arbiter of honesty, credibility and all other virtues in these parts. I'm comfortable with what I've read. Sorry if you're not.

So basically you are a coward. Good riddance scrub

 

Looks like the Dolphins have found their new guard! Bud, it doesn't make your arguments any stronger or you a better or cooler person to couch all of your points in sweeping generalities, profanities and personal attacks. Somebody needs a HUG. Maybe from Tanahashi. I hear he works pretty lightly.

[Dylan Waco]

Do you have anything to add to the thread, or just more trolling, and whining when people expose you as the liar and fraud that you are?

[jdw]

We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

I think this is a key point. How can he be compared to other wrestlers from the past decade or so like Akiyama, Sasaki, Nagata or Suzuki when the numbers have been so heavily worked? With that NOAH Dome Show in 2004 that drew 58,000, the rumour was that the real number of ticket sales was 20,000, so how do you wade through all that and figure out whether Akiyama was a better draw than Tanahashi?

Screw Akiyama... what the hell does it say about Kobashi if that show really sold just 20K tickets!?!?

 

Anyway, I would be interested if Dave talked about the paper at the time for that card and the Dome show the next year. I do recall that he talked a lot over the years about paper and inflated Dome numbers over the years, going all the way back to SWS and PWFG. So if it was a 20/32 split in sold/paper, it's likely that he would have talked about it. Confess that I don't recall because Noah always bored the piss out of me, and I always thought the Kobashi GHC Dynasty run was overrated so I've blocked most of it out of my mind... other than the Suzuki match that I enjoyed.

[Robert S]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.