Wrestling Culture Episode 51

[Dylan Waco]

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

 

So you don't think we have talked about the HoF enough? Good, Dave and I do it again for two hours, focusing on the results of this years balloting. We talk about all six of the inductees, some of the names hitting the ballot next year, the definition of a "no brainer," future projects and interests of Dave and I and I give the longest monologue/rant in Wrestling Culture history on Tanahashi. Behold, Episode 51 in all it's glory!

[cheapshot]

About 50% through this so far. Enjoying it, and I really agree with your comments about Taue getting in to the HoF if someone like Sasaki is already in. I think Akiyama would be a tougher sell however.

 

The point you raised about Matsunaga potentially getting 90% of the votes in other years is another point I agree on. That "others" section is such a nightmare moving forward, I don't think any one candidate is going to stand out above the others enough to garner enough votes.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree that Akiyama is a harder sell. I don't think I'd vote for him, and I'm admittedly a huge mark for the guy. But when I look at Akiyama next to both Sasaki and Tanahashi, is really hard for me to see how he's an inferior candidate to either.

[cheapshot]

I agree that Akiyama is a harder sell. I don't think I'd vote for him, and I'm admittedly a huge mark for the guy. But when I look at Akiyama next to both Sasaki and Tanahashi, is really hard for me to see how he's an inferior candidate to either.

While I was always a fan of Akiyama I cannot see him in the same tier as Tanahashi whatsoever. He was the fifth cog in the AJPW wheel, a fine worker, who had great matches but for me, inferior as a worker and a draw compared to Tanahashi. I do agree though that Tanahashi was at the right place at the right time.

 

I will not being using the 'best iPPV draw ever' card either as I find that a tad absurd at this juncture.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not sure there is evidence to support the statement that Akiyama was inferior as a draw to Tanahashi. Perhaps if you really hold the current state of AJPW against him you could make that case, but comparing their respective run as aces? Well the perception of Akiyama's was that it was worse and that he failed as the heir to Misawa and I don't even disagree with that aspect of it. But I don't buy the perception that Tanahashi has been the catalyst for some massive turnaround. I would want to look at a big sampling of the big shows from both guys, but on the surface level, I don't think it's at all clear that Tanahashi was a better draw.

 

As a worker it is what it is, but I think Akiyama destroys Tanahashi, and even if I was more of a Tanahashi fan than I am, if you are a "body of work" guy, I'd say Akiyama has him beat just by virtue of how long he's been around.

 

I meant to ask this on the podcast to Dave, but offhand I don't know that an ace with a spottier drawing record than Tanahashi has ever been inducted. Maybe Michaels.

[cheapshot]

I'm not sure there is evidence to support the statement that Akiyama was inferior as a draw to Tanahashi. Perhaps if you really hold the current state of AJPW against him you could make that case, but comparing their respective run as aces? Well the perception of Akiyama's was that it was worse and that he failed as the heir to Misawa and I don't even disagree with that aspect of it. But I don't buy the perception that Tanahashi has been the catalyst for some massive turnaround. I would want to look at a big sampling of the big shows from both guys, but on the surface level, I don't think it's at all clear that Tanahashi was a better draw.

The problem being, NJPW's gate's haven't been truthfully reported until the last year or so, so any comparison as a draw may be hard. I am just going off a gut feeling regarding Tanahashi > Akiyama.

 

I think Akiyama still in AJPW in it's current state may hurt him slightly.

 

As a worker it is what it is, but I think Akiyama destroys Tanahashi, and even if I was more of a Tanahashi fan than I am, if you are a "body of work" guy, I'd say Akiyama has him beat just by virtue of how long he's been around.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one really otherwise we may enter the world of a circular argument.

 

I meant to ask this on the podcast to Dave, but offhand I don't know that an ace with a spottier drawing record than Tanahashi has ever been inducted. Maybe Michaels.

I saw your post about this and will be interested to see the responses.

[puropotsy]

With Akiyama, the biggest problem is whether you think it should be a given that things continued at the same level they were with Misawa and company. He was the next generation but didn't have three other contemporaries like they did to come up with him. But I think he did get there just with his body of work in the 90's and he did have success artistically and success-wise with NOAH, just not at the level of Misawa and company before but that is a high standard. What I think is interesting is to wonder if there had been no AJPW/NOAH split, where would Taiyo Kea have ended up?

[goodhelmet]

Before I listen, did that commie Canadian Musgrave vote for Dick Murdoch?

[Bix]

Listening to this now...

 

"I don't know if for continental Europe we have [a suitable historian]..."

 

Indikator?

[cheapshot]

Listening to this now...

 

"I don't know if for continental Europe we have [a suitable historian]..."

 

Indikator?

Lister maybe?

[puropotsy]

Before I listen, did that commie Canadian Musgrave vote for Dick Murdoch?

Yes indeed I did

[W2BTD]

I love Akiyama and lean towards voting for him, but on the surface I can't see how he compares to Tanahashi as a draw.

 

The current state of All Japan definitely hurts him, and is just another example of when given the ball he has not come through. They ran with him before the split and he failed to move the needle at all. All while New Japan was growing exponentially with Tanahashi at minimum the key part of a package (or the prime draw, period).

 

Just look at All Japan post split, and that should tell you all you need to know about what they think of him as a draw. He's probably fourth on the pecking order now, as they moved on to SUWAMA (who has never drawn a dime) after Akiyama failed to move things, and SUWAMA's main foil in main events was Go Shiozaki, another guy who has been given (brief) chances and never done a thing for business. And when those guys didn't work, they've now turned to Akebono.

 

I'm willing to hear counter arguments, and can be swayed easily if I hear a persuasive one, but I don't see how two guys who essentially went head to head, with one promotion growing enormously, while the other has gotten even worse when they were already starting on the ground floor, could possibly be considered equal.

 

Meltzer took a narrative I have always pounded home when it comes to Akiyama. He's a better working Sting in a lot of ways.

[Dylan Waco]

If the argument is that Tanahashi has succeeded in growing a company where Akiyama hasn't, I think to a degree that is true (though I remain skeptical about the notion that Tanahashi deserves most of the credit for that, or even more than Okada).

 

If the argument is that career v. career Tanahashi has been a better draw than Akiyama? I don't see it. Akiyama drew a supposedly legit 50k to the Dome in 02, for a match with a guy who was not exactly a dynamite draw in Nagata.

 

Look at this page of Budokan shows from 06-present.

 

http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/superca...noah/bud10.html

 

If these numbers are even close to right they indicate that Akiyama was actually one of - if not THE single - strongest draws in that building over the last seven years. And not just in "well those number are decent for a promotion in peril." A lot of the numbers there are actually very impressive numbers. Against a wide variety of opponents. And the shows without him (or Misawa) on top do noticeably worse - unlike say the shows where Okada wrestled someone other than Tanahashi.

 

Or you could look at this, which John noted earlier today on Classics in passing. Akiyama comes into a struggling NJPW in 2003 for the G1 and they do a very strong run, with him as the key featured "other" getting the push into the finals.

 

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=9688

 

Or this October 2001 Tokyo Dome show with a young guns v. old vets main event, with Akiyama being the notable outsider/attraction on his team:

 

Indicate of Next

October 8, 2001 in Tokyo, Japan

Tokyo Dome drawing 47,000

El Samurai, Jushin Liger, & Minoru Tanaka beat Gedo, Jado, & Akira Nogami (11:18) when Tanaka beat Nogami.

 

Giant Singh & Giant Silva beat Hiroshi Tanahashi, Kenzo Suzuki, Yutaka Yoshie, & Wataru Inoue (9:06) in a "handicap" match when Silva pinned Inoue & Tanahashi.

 

Gary Goodridge TKO Michiyoshi Ohara (3:36).

 

Tokimitsu Ishizawa beat Masayuki Naruse (0:26) via submission to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title.

 

Bob Backlund & Tatsumi Fujinami beat Terry & Dory Funk, Jr. (10:40) when Fujinami pinned Dory.

 

Riki Choshu & Osamu Nishimura beat Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (10:40) when Choshu pinned Tenzan.

 

Manabu Nakanishi beat Tadao Yasuda (6:02) via sleeperhold in a "vale tudo" match.

 

Kazuyuki Fujita TKO Kensuke Sasaki (6:36) in a "vale tudo" match.

 

Yuji Nagata & Jun Akiyama beat Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Mutoh (28:04) when Nagata pinned Hase.

 

Of course this is incomplete, but Akiyama's highlights as a draw are far more impressive to my eyes than Tanahashi's. There are clear negatives and this is incomplete data (I'd like to see more complete NOAH results), but it's not like Tanahashi wasn't falling on his ass as an ace for years.

[W2BTD]

I can't wait until this time next year when hopefully there is some deep digging on Akiyama. All of the new candidates are fascinating to me to some degree.

[Timbo Slice]

The G1 stuff is huge. The argument can be made that his success at getting Tenzan over and making the tournament successful led directly to him being Kobashi's opponent at the Dome show the following July. That being said, they didn't have enough faith to put him over, which would have been an interesting direction to take the company.

 

In fact, that's a good question now that I think about it. Why the hell DIDN'T Akiyama go over in 04?

[cheapshot]

I can't wait until this time next year when hopefully there is some deep digging on Akiyama. All of the new candidates are fascinating to me to some degree.

There'd have to be a decent argument put forward by someone as to why Akiyama deserves to go in to the HoF for me to consider changing my viewpoint. I am already looking forward to 2014's HoF!

[Superstar Sleeze]

Well this is as good a place as for someone to drop the 411 on me, why Akiyama dropped the belt to Ogawa of all people in 2002. He begins 2000 by beating Misawa in what kind of feels like the Misawa/Jumbo of 2000. Then at the first NOAH show they run the angle of him dropping Kobashi like a bad habit. Then Kobashi/Akiyama basically runs on top throughout the rest of 2000. Then he beats Misawa again in 2001 for the GHC title. Watching all the matches for Ditch's poll, Akiyama seems like the biggest deal in puroresu from the beginning of 2000 right up until his title victory. Why did it fizzle? Why does he drop to Ogawa? The beauty of Misawa's rise against Jumbo was he had Kawada and Kobashi to back him up. Maybe there was not enough depth to have the same six-man style war? If anyone can help explain that because given Akiyama trajectory in 2000-01 he should have been puro's biggest star that decade and a stone cold lock for the HOF.