Bret on WOL

[goodhelmet]

For those who aren't, a couple of quick notes...

 

--- He felt everything was done respectfully while he was on Conn.

 

--- He felt the DVD was the right thing to do for the fans so they could get the best story. Plus, he didn't want it diminished with another Confidential-like piece.

 

--- After his stroke, he felt like it wasnt necessary to carry around this "bag of rocks" being Montreal or Owen's death. People know it happened and they know the truth.

[goodhelmet]

--- He said there will be some Stampede wrestling on there adn stuff from the Hart Foundation days.

 

--- He has no plans to work with WWE in any capacity after the DVD but doesn't rule it out. He doesn't want to come back as a referee or commissioner.

[Guest Some Guy]

What did he say about the book deal? My feed cut out just as the question was being asked and picked up at the very end of his answer.

 

I can't wait for him to be on for a long interview and to really get his opinions on what's been going on.

 

It was interesting to hear him be so tempered when he refered to Owen's death and Montreal. It's almost sad in a way that he's pretty much forced to play the game just so he can get a respectful DVD of his career out there.

 

I hope he does alternate commentaries on all the matches. Bret is one of the few who can explain exactly why he did everything he did in matches and hearing him explain it would be awesome.

[sek69]

I hope Bret was able to finally understand that Montreal happened because Vince felt he did what he had to do to protect his company and that Owen's death was a terrible accident.

 

I hate to ever be on Vince's side on anything, but it was so sad seeing Bret still hung up on those events like they just happened. Anyone can tell you that until you deal with something you'll never move on with your life.

[goodhelmet]

YOu clearly didn't listen to the interview because he isn't hung up on those events. That was what he was implying... that after the stroke he put things in perspective. However, Vince screwed Bret but I don't feel like arguing that again.

[sek69]

YOu clearly didn't listen to the interview because he isn't hung up on those events. That was what he was implying... that after the stroke he put things in perspective. However, Vince screwed Bret but I don't feel like arguing that again.

I know he isn't now, but he was for a very long time. I got the sense from comments he's made post-stroke that he was willing to accept what happened and move on, and I'm glad to hear that seems to be taking place.

 

And yes, Vince did screw Bret, but I understand why he felt he didn't have a choice. It wasn't right, but WCW had him so paranoid he didn't want his champion showing up on Nitro with his championship belt.

[goodhelmet]

THe only problem with that argument is Bret would have dropped the belt to anyone but Shawn (which was in Bret's right). Vince chose/forced the issue with Shawn. Fuck, Taker was right there. Whoever. Vince knew he was going to screw Bret and knew what he wanted to do long before that night ever took place.

[Marty]

For what it's worth, I'm betting Bret would've taken a squashing by Undertaker in Montreal. That's how low on the totem pole Shawn was in Bret's eyes at the time.

[sek69]

Bret didn't want to job in Canada. You can see in Wrestling With Shadows that he was becoming too much of a mark for his own gimmick. He spoke about the Hitman like he was a superhero.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think what Vince did was messed up, but in his mind he didn't see any alternative. This is Vince we're talking about, all he saw was his champion about to leave for another company and using his creative control to refuse to job in entire countries.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Just so it's out there, I'm with Vince and Sek.

 

If I'm your boss, you do what I say, period. *I* have ultimate creative control and I'm not gonna let your ego or your petty squabble with another employee dictate to me the best direction for MY company.

 

I understand that Bret had reasonable creative control but refusing to do a job in the entire country of Canada and especially not to a rival, to me, is unreasonable, so he got what he got.

[Loss]

There was ZERO CHANCE of Bret appearing on Nitro the next night, considering that he was still under contract to WWE and booked to appear on RAW the following night in Ottowa. He was even scheduled to drop the belt - to Shawn Michaels - at the December PPV. There's no justification for what happened.

[sek69]

Wasn't Bret's contract up at the end of November, meaning that he would have been at the next RAW (which was still in Canada) but the December PPV was pretty much Bret promising he'd appear just to drop the title? If I'm Vince, there's no way I'm taking someone's word for it that they'll show up if they've already signed with the competition.

[Loss]

Bret showed up on the first Nitro he actually could contractually appear on, which was on 12/15, the week after the IYH: DX PPV. So yes, he was still obligated to the WWF on the day of the PPV, which was 12/07 (my 18th birthday!).

 

Even if you go further back than that, if Vince had Bret under contract, he was purposely breaching it by trying to get out of it early. Had Bret not punched Vince, he could have sued them for the early breach and for vetoing his creative control clause in the last 30 days of his deal. (He still could have actually, but at that point, he could have been countersued for assaulting Vince.) I can understand Bret's motivations for not wanting to lose, especially since Shawn had flat out said he was refusing to do jobs for *anyone* at that point, and there are no other top stars who would agree to drop a belt to someone with that attitude. Losing in Canada after being built up huge as a local hero would have totally destroyed his future worth, and it turns out that it did.

[Coffey]

You know, I've never even cared enough about the "Montreal Screwjob Incident" to even think about how it made me feel. It happened so long ago that I don't even remember all of the details. I watched "Wrestling with Shadows" years ago, but that wasn't a very even look at the situation. It seemed to have a bias towards Bret's side.

 

I don't know which side of the fence I'd favor, and I don't really want to think about it, still, to this day. That shit happened years ago and should've been put to rest at that time too. Bret and WWE are both at fault for fueling the beast this damn long. I get tired of hearing WWE mention the screwjob everytime they go to Canada. I also get tired of reading Bret whining about the shit on the internet. Then, in turn, both of those events feul the e-fans and all the forums blow up with more "I agree with Bret" and "I agree with Vince" posts.

 

I'll be damn glad if they finally did pull out the knife.

[Guest Mike Campbell]

I think Cornette put it the best in his RF shoot. Vince allowed Bret to negociate with WCW while he was still under WWF contract, that shows how much he trusted Bret.

 

But if Bischoff even made a mention of signing Bret while he still held the title, Vince would have been pretty much finished. Not that Bret would have pulled any underhanded tricks, but Bischoff sure as fuck would have. "Because he's a fuckin' sewer dweller".

[sek69]

Talking about Bret causes so many emotions since he was so popular, it's hard to look at what happened clear-headed.

 

 

Losing in Canada after being built up huge as a local hero would have totally destroyed his future worth, and it turns out that it did.

 

 

No, WCW destroyed his worth by botching everything they planned for him. If WCW wasn't run by retarded monkeys they could have turned it into a bigger angle than the nWo.

 

 

Had Bret not punched Vince, he could have sued them for the early breach and for vetoing his creative control clause in the last 30 days of his deal.

 

 

Vince could have easily countered by saying that refusing to job in entire countries goes beyond the standard creative control clause.

 

 

Even if you go further back than that, if Vince had Bret under contract, he was purposely breaching it by trying to get out of it early.

 

Vince threw that huge 20 year deal at Bret, realized he couldn't honor it, and let Bret persue other options. All he asked is that he drop the company's top title before he left and Bret saw it as an insult to his wrestling character.

[Slasher]

Vince threw that huge 20 year deal at Bret, realized he couldn't honor it, and let Bret persue other options. All he asked is that he drop the company's top title before he left and Bret saw it as an insult to his wrestling character.

Bret was willing to job the title, even to Michaels. Just not at MONTREAL.

[The Thread Killer]

I attended the World Premiere of Wrestling with Shadows in Toronto. Bret was there, for a QnA.

 

He stated that he was not willing to drop the title in Canada, and that he wanted to wait until the next week. He also said he would not have dropped the title to Michaels at all. He would have been willing to drop the belt to the Undertaker or pretty much "anybody else" but what he said he really wanted to do was just hand the title over.

 

Also, trust me on this one...Bret is as popular as ever in Canada...maybe even MORE than he was before due to Montreal.

[Slasher]

Initially he wouldn't drop it to Michaels at all, but after a lot of back and forth arguing between him and Vince, Bret agreed to drop it in a 4 way at the Dec PPV to Shawn (though I suspect his elimination would not have been at the hands of the dancin' boy).

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

That's precisely my point. Doing a job in Canada on the way out of the WWF wouldn't have hurt him, hell, it's expected. I don't think his worth or popularity would have suffered in the slightest. Many US champions have dropped their World Titles on this soil and done just fine. Who's Bret to say who and where he can and cannot lay down? He crossed the line of "reasonable" there, so Vince had to do what he had to do.

 

For me, it comes down to two things: Vince did what he thought was best for his BUSINESS and Bret was only trying to do what he thought was best for his CHARACTER. Which is more important here?

[Loss]

No, WCW destroyed his worth by botching everything they planned for him. If WCW wasn't run by retarded monkeys they could have turned it into a bigger angle than the nWo.

They could have, but they didn't. I do think that Bret's WWF memory was tarnished by Montreal quite a bit, actually. It's now what he's most remembered for, even more than anything he ever did in the ring.

 

Vince could have easily countered by saying that refusing to job in entire countries goes beyond the standard creative control clause.

The word "reasonable" would have been where the fight was in court, no doubt. Who knows who would have won that case, but Bret would have had circumstance on his side since his 20-year contract was intentionally breached and he was told that it would be intentionally breached.

 

Vince threw that huge 20 year deal at Bret, realized he couldn't honor it, and let Bret persue other options. All he asked is that he drop the company's top title before he left and Bret saw it as an insult to his wrestling character.

Which it was. After 14 years in the company, doing a job to a guy who humped the Canadian flag, in Canada, who had already beaten you once, after you've been pushed as a national hero, would have ruined him. Imagine he'd done a clean job in Montreal. He maintained some semblance of worth there because of the situation, but had he laid down for Michaels clean as a sheet, WCW would have had a hard time promoting him in Canada after that, and one of the reasons Bischoff wanted him at the time was so they could start running shows north of the border with a strong drawing card besides Hogan (which never happened because of poor management). Canadian fans are a slightly different breed. They booed Goldberg for *two years* after the steel plate angle in Toronto. They don't forget.

[Loss]

Look at it this way -- Bret Hart is probably the most famous Canadian athlete. Hockey isn't big outside of Canada, so you can throw out Gretzsky, and Bret was a huge draw internationally for five years in the 90s. There are no wrestlers that have been so closely related to America that have been at Bret's level, and I can't think of a single American wrestler that's ever been a legitimate American hero. Austin, Rock and Hogan were bigger stars, but none of them had their entire character based around their home country.

[Slasher]

Fact is, if Vince couldn't handle his guys dictating the direction of their characters, he could.... STOP CREATIVE CONTROL CLAUSES in contracts. He (Vince) dug his own grave and he took the scummy way out. One part of me feels it was unfortunate that Bret's screwing propelled WWF/E to a new golden age.

[sek69]

Look at it this way -- Bret Hart is probably the most famous Canadian athlete. Hockey isn't big outside of Canada, so you can throw out Gretzsky, and Bret was a huge draw internationally for five years in the 90s. There are no wrestlers that have been so closely related to America that have been at Bret's level, and I can't think of a single American wrestler that's ever been a legitimate American hero. Austin, Rock and Hogan were bigger stars, but none of them had their entire character based around their home country.

 

Austin, Rock and Hogan were bigger stars, but none of them had their entire character based around their home country.

 

 

 

ok...

 

 

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside

Ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide

 

If you hurt my friends, can you hurt my pride

I gotta be a man, I can't let it slide

I am a real American

Fight for the rights of every man

I am a real American

Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

 

Well I'm feeling strong about right and wrong (Ooo yeah)

And I don't take trouble for very long.

I got somethin' deep inside of me

Courage is the thing that keeps us free

 

I am a real American

Fight for the rights of every man

I am a real American

Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

 

I am a real American

Fight for the rights of every man

I am a real American

Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

 

If you hurt my friends, can you hurt my pride

I gotta be a man, I can't let it slide

I am a real American

Fight for the rights of every man

I am a real American

Fight for what's right - Fight for your life

 

 

 

Hulk Hogan's entire 80s WWF run was the American Hero defeating all comers, starting with the evil Iranian Iron Shiek.

[Loss]

Are you saying Hogan was as associated with America as Bret with Canada? I'm not sure I agree with that. If WWE ran over 80% of their shows in Canada, I'd also side with Vince here, for the record, but Canada is a niche market, and the US is not.