Benoit or Eddy

[Loss]

What prompted this was Dave Meltzer's comments, which I've included below, that totally baffle me because they're so ridiculous. Anyway, I pick Eddy Guerrero by a country mile and I'll explain why shortly, but here's what DM said:

 

Guerrero has a lot of bad matches. He and Mysterio stunk up the joint at the last San jose house show, and all of the PPV matches in their current feud have been disappointing. I can't even imagine Benoit having a bad match with Mysterio. Guerrero can do more things in the ring but Benoit is far more consistent, rarely has a bad match. As an actor, Guerrero by a mile. Right now he's the best in the company outside the ring. Both are great at their best, but Guerrero as "at his best" maybe 10%, if that, and Benoit is maybe 85% and that's the big difference.

 

A big difference from an athletic condition is Benoit is in so much better cardiovascular condition. A lot of the guys who are in awesome shape in WWE have to slow down for Guerrero. Nobody has to slow down for Benoit. That's in particular the difference between Angle, whose conditioning is probably the best in the company, in having so many classics with Benoit and have "only" very very good matches with Guerrero.

 

You also have to factor in Guerrero was in a horrible car wreck and battles major drug addictions. He can't afford to use the quantity of pain relievers many in the company use for fear of addiction, so he simply can't go all out, and his body is breaking down faster. Benoit has the bad neck, but overall doesn't have the injuries Guerrero battles if he has to do four hard matches in the same week.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

I agree with the assessment that Eddy Guerrero can do more in the ring, but Benoit is far more consistent. Benoit, IMO has fallen off for a while now, but for a good 10 years he was easily a top 5 worker in the business. Year in and year out he had atleast one match that could be considered for Match of the Year. He had 2 near ***** matches in the matter of 3 PPVs in WCW 1998 (That watch with Raven/Then the match with Raven/DDP and Uncensored).

[Slasher]

I agree. Eddy has been disappointing. All his matches lately, while ranging from okay to good, has yet to realize the full potential, both for his character and his ability. Benoit makes better use of his ability, even though he is a bit repetitive, but then again so was Flair and Hart, and they were widely considered great workers.

[Loss]

Every wrestler in the history of wrestling is repetitive.

 

Anyway, I am dying to see the Eddy/Rey match from 06/05 Smackdown that a lot of people seem to have already forgotten happened, but also a lot of people whose opinions I value are saying it's the 2005 MOTY. And considering that I think Eddy was involved in at least 6 or 7 of the top 10 matches of 2004 while Benoit wasn't in any of them (I say that tentatively), I just don't see how they can be compared.

 

Benoit had the match with Regal where he supposedly showed all his cards, but that had to be the first time he's done that since at least 2001.

[Slasher]

I'm not really limiting my opinion to 2004-2005. I was speaking of their WWE careers. Benoit's been in a lot of classics while Eddy was either putting on good matches or forgotten gems, but no classics.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

I'm not really limiting my opinion to 2004-2005. I was speaking of their WWE careers. Benoit's been in a lot of classics while Eddy was either putting on good matches or forgotten gems, but no classics.

I agree. Chris Benoit has been much more consistent and has more memorable matches.

 

The RR match with Angle

The WM Mainevent with HHH and Shawn

The match with Jericho @ Summer Slam 2000

 

 

I could go on. He's just been more consistent. Now Eddy Guerrero has been a bit better recently, but over the last 10 years, Benoit has been better.

[Resident Evil]

Every wrestler in the history of wrestling is repetitive.

 

Anyway, I am dying to see the Eddy/Rey match from 06/05 Smackdown that a lot of people seem to have already forgotten happened, but also a lot of people whose opinions I value are saying it's the 2005 MOTY. And considering that I think Eddy was involved in at least 6 or 7 of the top 10 matches of 2004 while Benoit wasn't in any of them (I say that tentatively), I just don't see how they can be compared.

 

Benoit had the match with Regal where he supposedly showed all his cards, but that had to be the first time he's done that since at least 2001.

Benoit vs Orton from Raw was the MOTY from last year. Than you got the perfect Benoit vs Kane Raw match from last year which is unfortunately overlooked and the Benoit vs Michaels Showdown in the desert match. Benoit got absolutely nothing to work with in 2004 but every time he did he shined.

 

Eddie's best was against Bradshaw which was very good, Rey and Big Show. I'd take Benoit from this year.

 

 

2005 I'd take Benoit as well (a lot of its due to the intensity factor which everybody knows I mark for) as I'm enjoying his work from match to match better. A week or two before Wrestlemania he was on and than did really well from than out with a 6 man tag, getting the absolute best he could out of a potentially bad situation at Mania, the very good match with Edge afterwards and the very good match with Christian the next week that had some great work especially from Benoit's comeback on. He's also been strong against Batista, Kane and Eddie himself.

 

2005 for Eddie? I loved the Smackdown match against Rey which is #1 or #2 match for this year. But this is the thing I absolutely hate about comparisons like this. Eddie has turned heel and is not a face which Benoit is. Their jobs are now different and it's not completely fair to compare them like that. The same reason why I don't like comparing the Rockers to the Midnight Express. Their roles were different - The Rockers were better as babyfaces but the I can't see them being as good a team if they were heels like the Express commonly were. I can't see the Express being better faces than the Rockers. Who was the better team? You can't honostly say.

 

I love both guys.

[Loss]

They were both babyface champions in 2004 and can be compared quite easily then. Over the span of a career, it's a little closer. Benoit has the edge in consistency and Eddy Guerrero has had more "classic" matches. Year by year, I'd probably go this route.

 

2005 - Eddy

2004 - Eddy

2003 - Benoit

2002 - Eddy

2001 - Benoit

2000 - Benoit

1999 - Benoit

1998 - Eddy

1997 - Eddy

1996 - Eek ... very close call

1995 - Benoit

1994 - Benoit

1993 - Eddy

 

I can't really comment back further than that.

 

MAN, 1996 is a tough call and I have no idea which one I'd pick, especially when their best match against each other. If I look at second best match, I either have 03/20/96 Otani for Benoit or 06/12/96 Liger for Guerrero. I'm not even touching that one. So basically, of 12 years (excluding '96), I'd give Benoit the edge in 6 of them and Eddy the advantage in 6 of them. Both are great, obviously, but I feel if we're playing "what have you done for me lately?", Eddy has to get the edge.

 

I'd like to see Benot work a match without any crossface attempts or German suplexes. I think he can do it, but I think he'd freshen his act up considerably if he eliminated both spots, since he's beaten them into the ground. I'd also like to see the belt get put back on Eddy yesterday.

 

The RR match with Angle

The WM Mainevent with HHH and Shawn

The match with Jericho @ Summer Slam 2000

You owe it to yourself to get a set with the following matches on it. I think it could challenge your perspective:

 

Eddy v Brock (No Way Out '04)

Eddy v Angle (WM X)

Eddy v Rey (SD 03/18/04)

Eddy v Show (SD 04/15/04)

Eddy v JBL (Judgment Day '04)

Eddy v JBL (GAB '04)

Eddy v JBL (SD 07/15/04)

 

You get to see him work with five very different wrestlers with two gimmick matches thrown in at the end to boot. All of those smoke the WM main event for work.

[goodhelmet]

Why did you pick Benoit over Eddy in 1994?

 

To be honest, I would choose anything Eddy did with Los Gringos or AAA that year over Benoit and his Super J Cup win anyday of the week.

 

At this moment in time, I'll go with Eddy in a walk. We had an argument at SNKT over definitive matches that define someone's career. Eddy has had so many. With Benoit, most people consider the JCup win the one true classic match of Benoit's career. Hell, I don't even think that match is one of the tope ten junior matches, much less a true classic.

 

 

In fact, I think the exact opposite is true when I see these phrases...

 

I'm not really limiting my opinion to 2004-2005. I was speaking of their WWE careers. Benoit's been in a lot of classics while Eddy was either putting on good matches or forgotten gems, but no classics.

Chris Benoit has been much more consistent and has more memorable matches

 

Eddy has absolutely destroyed Benoit's work in the last 2 years. This isn't to demean Benoit (although it will) but Eddie has been far and away the best wrestler in WWE for two years running.

[Slasher]

Which I wholeheartedly agree. I think Eddy's the clear cut MVP of 2004 and could be again this year if he got away from Rey. But when speaking of the 5 years they have been associated with the company, Benoit wins hands down.

[Resident Evil]

I don't get the classic arguement either. I love Eddie's work as much as anyone but every year from 92 on I pick a Benoit match over an Eddie match. Well, except for the times I prefer their matches against each other.

[goodhelmet]

That is just Canadian bias

 

But to be honest, I am the exact opposite. For the majority of the years, I pick an Eddie match over a Benoit match. Must be my South Texas bias

[Resident Evil]

That is just Canadian bias 

 

But to be honest, I am the exact opposite. For the majority of the years, I pick an Eddie match over a Benoit match. Must be my South Texas bias 

I know I'm biased towards Benoit. I'm also biased towards Eddie. But really when it all comes down to it everyone is biased in their thought patterns because if we weren't we wouldn't be writing anything on these webpages. We'd have no motivation.

[Slasher]

Can't we just say they are two of the best workers in the past 10 years?

[Guest WidowsPeak]

Can't we just say they are two of the best workers in the past 10 years?

Yep. That's the way I am looking at it.

[goodhelmet]

There just isn't any fun in that.

[Ray]

Benoit's had an off year in 2005, mostly because he's been HORRIBLY booked. After he lost the title it was almost like he didn't exist. Still, he's had good matches, including working one around Christian, who didn't want to do anything but hold Benoit's arm the whole match. He's also had good matches with HHH, Edge, and Regal, and possibly more but I've stopped watching WWE.

 

In 2004 he was great, despite not really being booked as a champion. For a few months after winning the title he was having a good match on Raw almost every week. I saw him pull good matches out of people like Randy Orton, Kane, Tyson Tomko, Ric Flair and Batista. The May match with Michaels was great. Aside from some repetitive offense and a bad finish, the iron man with Triple H was smartly worked and surprisingly good. The Raw match with Kane might be the best match Kane ever had and it gets no attention.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

:

 

Eddy v Brock (No Way Out '04)

Eddy v Angle (WM X)

Eddy v Rey (SD 03/18/04)

Eddy v Show (SD 04/15/04)

Eddy v JBL (Judgment Day '04)

Eddy v JBL (GAB '04)

Eddy v JBL (SD 07/15/04)

 

 

I have all those matches and the only ones that are comparable, imo are the Brock match and the Angle match, which I thought was underrated from reviews I read. But still I can find many more memorable matches from Benoit in WWE then Eddy Guerrero.

 

 

In WCW the best match either guy had there was probably Eddy vs. Rey. But Benoit had more consistent ****+ matches there. And I caught basically every PPV they had there. And watched every Nitro, SN, and Thunder.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

Let's not forget about Eddy completely half-assing it at the ECW PPV against Benoit.

 

And I like Eddy Guerrero the character more than Benoit, or atleast just as much.

[Loss]

I'm not sure Benoit ever had a GREAT match in WCW honestly, just tons of really good ones.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

I'm not sure Benoit ever had a GREAT match in WCW honestly, just tons of really good ones.

vs. Raven @ Souled Out

vs. DDP and Raven @ Uncensored

vs. Bret Hart on Nitro 1999

vs. Booker T. I forget what match of the series, but one was exceptional

 

Were all ****1/2 - ***** matches to me.

 

Now Eddy vs. Rey Misterio @ Halloween Havoc 1997 is one of the best matches in WCW history, though.

[sek69]

Eddy and Chris were neck-and-neck to me until Eddy started having his problems. He really didn't seem to have any enthusiasm from the time he won the title until his current program with Rey.

 

I'm digging Eddy more now just because he seems to be enjoying his work more. Lately it seems that if Benoit mails it in any more his matches are going to start coming by UPS.

[Tim Cooke]

Aside from Austin/Rock from WrestleMania 17, Eddy/JBL from Judgement Day stands out head over heals. I think it knocks the socks off of Eddy/Lesnar (which is an awesome Eddy performance but Lesnar is no where near Vader like). The Eddy/Show match is freakin outstanding. Eddy/Rey from 3/04 is Eddy working a fucking hammerlock as the "veteran" wrestler because that is all he has to do because he is that good. In turn, Rey's highspots stand out EVEN more than usual. The Eddy/JBL matches are just another notch in Eddy's greatness for being able to adapt to a different style but not seem out of place at all.

 

As for years:

 

1990 - Benoit

1991 - Benoit

1992 - Benoit

1993 - Null as I haven't seen enough of either to judge

1994 - Benoit

1995 - Benoit

1996 - tie, too close

1997 - Benoit, but Eddy had the best overall match that year while Benoit rolled out great matches with Finlay, etc.

1998 - Guerrero

1999 - Benoit

2000 - Benoit

2001 - Benoit

2002 - Benoit

2003 - thought they were both very lackluster

2004 - Guerrero

2005 - Guerrero

 

Tim

[Guest DylanWaco]

A few little quips:

 

1) There is no way that Benoit was a "top five" worker for a decade. I know the net is filled with a lot of really big Benoit fans, but I can't conceive of any world in which even the biggest Benoit mark could toss out ten years in a row where Benoit was top five in the world. The earliest you could even reasonably consider him for that title would be what, 93? That year featured four of the best wrestlers who ever lived in the midst of their respective peaks (Hokuto, Kobashi, Hanson and Vader) and that's not including any Japanese juniors, Takada, Misawa, Kawada, Bret Hart, the other key Joshi girls and probably some Luchadores (I don't follow lucha enough to make a fair judgment). Hell I don't even think he was as good as Barry Windham that year. 94? Well he had his "best" match that year against Sasuke, but he certainly didn't have a better year than the AJPW players or in my mind Bret Hart. If I'm not mistaken Takada had a strong year that year also. And once again this is pretending Lucha and Joshi don't exist. In 95 I suppose you could start to make a cogent argument for Benoit, but he's still got to deal with the usual suspects in Japan, plus Taue who had a very strong year that year. 1996 was Benoit's best year ever IMO, but unfortunately that was also a good to great year for guys like Misterio, Malenko, Juvi, Michaels, 2 Cold Scorpio and even Steve Austin..throw in the best guys in Japan and there is no way in hell he's top five that year. 97..he wasn't better than Misawa or Liger for sure and I think Eddy and Ultimo were both definatively better also. Bret also had another very good year. I could conceive of someone puting him in a top five that year, but it's not a "clear cut" choice by any stretch. Starting in 98 the AJPW guys were noticeably down, but they were still better than Benoit. Still I think he may have been a top five guy that year. 99 he was clearly top five, but that was one of the worst years in wrestling history so that's hardly an accomplishment. Benoit had his years where he was a top five guy or close, but not a ten year run.

 

2) I think Lesnar actually isn't/wasn't that far from Vader like heights. He overbumped sometimes which was detrimential to his charactor but it was in the spirit of working hard which is a nice touch for a guy that was protected and pushed to the moon by the company. Was he capable of doing the various things Vader did in his career? I think he actually was, but he was never able to prove it because of the WWE constraints and the fact that he gave up. Lesnar had the total package as he was capable and secure in pretty much any situation in the ring with any opponent. He was adapatble in a way that Vader didn't real show in U.S. rings, though that's not really the fault of Vader. Lesnar's best work doesn't really compare with Vader's and his peak doesn't match Vader's, but I think he would have gotten better and if he does come back and work hard I fully expect him to be one of the best workers who ever lived.

 

3) I'm in the Eddy camp here. TY over at a1 has pointed out that a guy like Eddy is doing things a higher level of dificultly than most guys who are expected to work both up and down (with the heavies and with the juniors). I don't think Benoit mastered that in the same way that Eddy did, though to be fair, Benoit was never fully tested by the bookers. Eddy is more offensively creative and tends to sneak in things in his matches nowadays whereas Benoit is much more reliant on the same old standard moves, that are poorly executed at this point. He still sells better than anyone in the company, but that doesn't make him better than Eddy. I prefer Eddy's best matches, I think he has more memorable moments in the ring, and I generally think he conveys charactor better than most other guys in the business and far better than Benoit. Bottom line I think Eddy is better.

 

4) In 96 Benoit was better than Eddy and I don't think it was THAT close. Benoit had a hell of a year that year, showcasing his moveset, his excellent execution, and his versatility. The guy had two very believable and memorable brawls with Kevin Sullivan, then shifts into working cruisers, than shifts into tag matches, et. He was all over the place and in a good way. He never really hit that stride again and that's partially because of booking. Eddy had a good year, but was stuck doing mostly "fun stuff" and without any direction from the book he really wasn't capable of breaking out in a way that would really put him over the top in a head to head with Benoit that year.

[Loss]

Great post, Dylan. I wanted to respond and add to a few things you said.

 

1) There is no way that Benoit was a "top five" worker for a decade. I know the net is filled with a lot of really big Benoit fans, but I can't conceive of any world in which even the biggest Benoit mark could toss out ten years in a row where Benoit was top five in the world. The earliest you could even reasonably consider him for that title would be what, 93? That year featured four of the best wrestlers who ever lived in the midst of their respective peaks (Hokuto, Kobashi, Hanson and Vader) and that's not including any Japanese juniors, Takada, Misawa, Kawada, Bret Hart, the other key Joshi girls and probably some Luchadores (I don't follow lucha enough to make a fair judgment).

NJ juniors seemed to have a lackluster year overall compared to other years in '93 from what I've seen. The best NJ juniors matches I've seen from '93 have all involved Benoit. The 06/14 Samurai match and the Liger match where he did the crazy dive to the floor are what stand out here. That said, yes, everyone else was peaking so high that year that I don't think he would be in the top five for the year. Of those you listed, I think the only one he's competitive with would be Bret, but Bret got a great matches out of Yokozuna and Doink the Clown that year, worked as a heel in the USWA and did some really awesome stuff there and also had that KOTR '93 match with Hennig that is so, so great. So yeah, for '93, I'd probably put Bret higher. In the US, Benoit had the Scorpio match at SuperBrawl III, which was a nice match, but Benoit would gain such a killer instinct within a year that it's not quite as awesome as it seemed at the time. I didn't think his tag team with Eaton was as good as it could have been either, and I'd rank them behind the Blondes and even Bagwell and Scorpio.

 

Hell I don't even think he was as good as Barry Windham that year.

Comparing the Scorpio matches they both had in '93 could be interesting. I'm not sure which I'd put higher, but I think they both had their best US matches that year against Scorp.

 

94? Well he had his "best" match that year against Sasuke, but he certainly didn't have a better year than the AJPW players or in my mind Bret Hart. If I'm not mistaken Takada had a strong year that year also. And once again this is pretending Lucha and Joshi don't exist. In 95 I suppose you could start to make a cogent argument for Benoit, but he's still got to deal with the usual suspects in Japan, plus Taue who had a very strong year that year.

I'd agree with this. I also wonder how Benoit compares to Owen in '94.

 

1996 was Benoit's best year ever IMO, but unfortunately that was also a good to great year for guys like Misterio, Malenko, Juvi, Michaels, 2 Cold Scorpio and even Steve Austin..throw in the best guys in Japan and there is no way in hell he's top five that year.

I'd put him ahead of Malenko, Michaels, Scorpio and Austin for sure. Possibly Kobashi but I don't know where I stand on that. I would put Ultimo, Otani and maybe even Liger above him in his weight class though. With Malenko, I think his peaks came against Misterio and Ultimo, but he also had stinkers on a few occasions where you wouldn't expect it, specifically with Psicosis at World War 3. Michaels had his best year as a main eventer, but I think Benoit/Eddy from 6/11/96 is better than any Michaels match that year. Scorpio was carrying just about everyone in ECW, but I don't know that he ever really got to the level his talent deserved that year. Austin had the Bret match in November and a few good matches against Mero, but I think Benoit was working on a higher level at this point.

 

97..he wasn't better than Misawa or Liger for sure and I think Eddy and Ultimo were both definatively better also. Bret also had another very good year. I could conceive of someone puting him in a top five that year, but it's not a "clear cut" choice by any stretch.

In '96, Benoit was booked all over the place and made it work, but in '97, Benoit was booked all over the place with mostly worse opponents. I will give him credit for getting more out of the Outsiders tag team in a match where he teamed with Flair on Nitro than anyone else has.

 

Starting in 98 the AJPW guys were noticeably down, but they were still better than Benoit. Still I think he may have been a top five guy that year.

He was out with the injury for a good 4-6 months of the year. Also, the Booker series is strong, but the matches all run together. I've never heard anyone be able to say "This was the best of the series" and point to a specific match.

 

99 he was clearly top five, but that was one of the worst years in wrestling history so that's hardly an accomplishment.

Benoit may have been the best in the world in 1999, or at least the best in the US. Despite the wrestling around him declining, he still had what would have been a great year in any year.

 

I'll respond to the other two points when I have more time.