Kenta Kobashi

[JerryvonKramer]

Do intangibles take into account the claims of over-emoting and too much crying, a lack of character development, or the way he'd get the yips any time a mic was placed in his face? Because if they factor in the flip-side to traditional Japanese stoicism then they should weigh in some of Kobashi's negatives too.

 

Regarding Kobashi's appeal, Japanese fight pundits have traditionally favoured the underdog, the guy who puts up a fight despite being hopelessly out matched, or the guy who shows good technique regardless of being outclassed, and I think that had a lot to do with Kobashi's popularity as a young man.

Of course, it's easier for us to relate to those performances than the restraint other performers show, but I think rather than some kind of universal appeal, or intrinsic "likeability," it's something that we as a foreign audience are drawn to when trying to decipher and decode a text we don't fully understand. I don't think it's a surprise that the word charisma comes up so often in conversations about foreign workers as that's something that people cling to when they're trying to make sense of what they're watching. With Kobashi, I think he had as much direct appeal to his audience as Misawa and wasn't simply a type of charismatic performer who could get over anywhere.

I disagree only insomuch as I see a lot of Rick Martel or Ricky Steamboat or even Jack Brisco in Kobashi and on that basis could see him getting over anywhere. Martel and Brisco weren't exactly talkers. Neither was Steamer come to think of it.

 

There might be things specific to Japan that helped Kobashi get over there, but that is also true of -- let's say Jim Breaks in England -- but I still think Breaks could have gotten over in the US or Japan based on his natural "intangibles".

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think Breaks would have gotten over in either America or Japan, but that's a discussion for the Breaks thread. I don't really get why people care about those sort of things either. The most important thing to me is how good a guy is in their natural setting not an imaginary one.

[Jingus]

Misawa also had the booking behind him to an extent that Kobashi, Kawada et. al. didn't have. He was pushed as the superhuman upcoming star who was the only youngster capable of defeating the dominant older guys like Jumbo and Hansen. It's a lot easier to be perceived as the top star and be a big draw when you're the prodigious Alexander conquering the world, as opposed to "well they tried really really hard before their inevitable defeat!" which is the character that Kobashi was stuck with for years.

[Childs]

You're ignoring the six years Misawa spent under the mask and the fact if took him more than two years after he beat Jumbo to win the Triple Crown. He had to climb the mountain too. Once he became the ace, he owned the role. It's lame to write that off as a mere product of booking, because when you watch the matches, you can see how brilliant he was at portraying the peerless leader. None of that takes away from the many remarkable gifts Kobashi brought to the table. But, getting back to the original issue, I find it odd that anyone would place Kobashi well ahead of Misawa on intangibles. Kobashi strikes me as one of the most "tangible" great wrestlers in history.

[JerryvonKramer]

8 vs. 6 isn't exactly "well ahead".

 

And also bear in mind that a 6 is "all-time great" for intangibles.

[Childs]

No, it's not a big gap, and if Kobashi's qualities speak to you more powerfully, that should absolutely be reflected in your system.

 

I have Kobashi No. 4 and Misawa No. 7 on my working list.

[pol]

Not comfortable with praising a Japanese guy for 'transcending cultural barriers' in the absence of any evidence in the form of him working in front of different crowds. Seems far too spurious an explanation for one guy appealing to you over another. Also hard to imagine that line of argument being used to talk up, say, an American worker that never worked in Japan but hypothetically could have gotten over there.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dude, I am British and used that exact formulation about Jim Breaks in this very thread.

[Jingus]

He was INCREDIBLY over at those Ring Of Honor shows he worked. It's true that the crowds were chanting as much for his already-established legendary track record as anything else, but his performances there certainly thrilled those audiences. Out of all the AJPW natives, I think Kobashi's style translates the best to a typical American crowd.

[JerryvonKramer]

As an additional point, there are points during the peak Misawa run circa 93, 94, 95 where Kobashi feels like he is more over than Misawa judging from the crowd noise and "Kobashi" chants. Or at least that's how it has come across to me.

 

I think that is partly because of that fact that (a la Martel, Steamboat etc.), Kobashi works from underneath building towards a comeback. He's just a classic wrestling babyface. And that's going to get over. But I also think it's because of his expressiveness as well.

 

Misawa is more in the mould of Jumbo: a stoic, dominant ace. That will get over too, but I think the sense of inevitability of it all sometimes hurts both of their pops.

 

Kobashi has the benefit of a greater sense of contingency a lot of the time. I've been watching matches of his when he's the ace too, and that still comes across in his matches. The sense of danger and the unknown.

[ohtani's jacket]

Misawa worked as a dominant ace? If you ask me, Misawa showed the full spectrum of what it meant to be ace and to have to fight to hold that position with so many challengers breathing down your neck. It seems like you're not tracking Misawa's selling and realizing how transcendent it is. Do you really think that if you replaced Misawa with Kobashi in 6/95 or 12/96 that the matches would be as good?

[JerryvonKramer]

I've given Misawa his due for selling and his great matches.

 

What this boils down to is that I don't see Misawa (6) as comparable to a Flair, Hogan, Bruno, or Austin (all 10s) for intangibles.

 

I see Kobashi (8) and Choshu (9) both as being closer to that level but not quite.

 

As there is not long left, all I can suggest is for everyone to come to their own conclusions. I've provided the reasons for mine.

[ohtani's jacket]

The point is whst is it based on? Crowd reaction?

[JerryvonKramer]

Charisma, expressiveness, personality in the ring, aura and other such "intangibles".

 

Overness is not necessarily taken into account, although it can be seen as proof of connection to the audience. Bruno at MSG for example. Or, one might argue, Kobashi in 93-5.

 

But it doesn't always tell you the whole story. Like Sting in 89-90 was very over and, in my view, failed to live up to the reaction himself. HOWEVER, the reaction in the first place for Sting is some evidence of his intangible qualities. He stands out from other guys with less star quality to an extent.

 

In the cases of guys like Backlund and Dory, I'd point to very strong booking and their wrestling ability, rather than intangibles, as the reason for their overness.

[ohtani's jacket]

But then Dory was more over in Japan than Flair ever was, and Backlund was more over in the Nortth East. How do you explain that?

[JerryvonKramer]

Super strong booking.

 

Backlund killed everyone for close to 6 years and was a babyface.

 

I think Dory ate like 2 pinfalls in 20 years in Japan. That crowd also respects tradition, history, titles etc. more, and Dory was NWA champ, had legendary matches with Baba and Inoki, and held quite a few major titles for Baba down the years.

 

Flair never did more than the odd title defense in Japan, never had a sustained run really. And it stands to reason that he'd be less over in NY just as Hogan was less over down south. It wasn't his area. And he was still pretty over there as a heel in 91-2 despite being booked pretty weakly for a top guy in terms of wins etc.

[JerryvonKramer]

Actually, if I'm having to argue why Flair was more charismatic than Bob Backlund or Dory Jr, I think I have to draw a line.

 

That's the point where the discussion has become too absurd. If other people want to discuss that great, I'm done with it.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's obvious to all in sundry that Flair had more innate charisma than Backlund or Dory, but that didn't wash with Japanese fans or folks on the East Coast, and I don't think it's a matter of booking. I don't think Flair knew how to act for either market.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's obvious to all in sundry that Flair had more innate charisma than Backlund or Dory, but that didn't wash with Japanese fans or folks on the East Coast, and I don't think it's a matter of booking. I don't think Flair knew how to act for either market.

 

OJ, I'm sorry but this isn't the best post you've ever made. It's completely disinguous.

 

You know as well as anyone that Flair worked spot title defenses in Japan where -- just like Harley Race, Terry Funk, Jack Brisco and Dory before him -- he did what was asked of him and worked longer technical matches. Some excellent ones too. He was over perfectly fine in that role (as much as any of the other NWA champs) and carried himself as the absolute epitome of the NWA champion -- through and through. Look up "NWA Champion" in a text book and you might just see a picture of Ric Flair in Japan about to defend the belt against Jumbo. Come on now.

 

Dory was always going to be more over than him when he'd worked there 15+ years and worked numerous blood feuds against the likes of The Sheik, Abby, Bruiser Brody, Hansen and so on. God knows how many matches with Baba etc.

 

To say Flair "didn't wash" with Japanese fans or that he didn't know how to work for them is ... basically ridiculous.

 

Before 1991, when did Flair work New York exactly? Do you think he wasn't over as the heel champion in 1992? Royal Rumble 1992 is still brought up all the time by fans as the best ever version of that event. It was Flair, in New York, over as the top heel.

 

What more do you really want from him? He didn't know how to act during that run? Come on.

 

Was the post a troll OJ? Be honest.

[JerryvonKramer]

And just to overkill the point

 

 

 

folks on the East Coast

 

 

Question1: What coast would you say this is?

 

Question 2: What show notoriously had the entire crowd chanting "We Want Flair" for its entire duration and where was that show held?

 

Question 3: Who was headlining JCP cards in 1985 and 1986 when they were routlinely selling out the Philadephia Civic Arena?

 

Question 4: Which coast is Philadelphia on?

 

What are you smoking this morning OJ?

[ohtani's jacket]

Look up "NWA Champion" in a text book and you might just see a picture of Ric Flair in Japan about to defend the belt against Jumbo. Come on now.

 

Sure, demonstrating all that charisma, expressiveness, personality in the ring, aura and intangibles as he whoos to complete silence. So Dory was one of the biggest gaijin stars of all time because he toured there for 15 years+, and we're actually pretending that Flair's first WWF run was a success now? You're right that Crockett did good business on the East Coast after McMahon sold the TBS time slots to him, so I'll retract my comment that Flair's act didn't play well to that market. I know people who were disappointed when he showed up in the WWF in '91, particularly Flair fans who'd constantly told their Eastern brethren how good Flair was. You can put that down to weak booking I suppose.

[jdw]

 

It's obvious to all in sundry that Flair had more innate charisma than Backlund or Dory, but that didn't wash with Japanese fans or folks on the East Coast, and I don't think it's a matter of booking. I don't think Flair knew how to act for either market.

 

OJ, I'm sorry but this isn't the best post you've ever made. It's completely disinguous.

 

You know as well as anyone that Flair worked spot title defenses in Japan where -- just like Harley Race, Terry Funk, Jack Brisco and Dory before him -- he did what was asked of him and worked longer technical matches. Some excellent ones too. He was over perfectly fine in that role (as much as any of the other NWA champs) and carried himself as the absolute epitome of the NWA champion -- through and through. Look up "NWA Champion" in a text book and you might just see a picture of Ric Flair in Japan about to defend the belt against Jumbo. Come on now.

 

Dory was always going to be more over than him when he'd worked there 15+ years and worked numerous blood feuds against the likes of The Sheik, Abby, Bruiser Brody, Hansen and so on. God knows how many matches with Baba etc.

 

To say Flair "didn't wash" with Japanese fans or that he didn't know how to work for them is ... basically ridiculous.

 

 

It was the *title* more than Ric. He came on the heels of Thesz, Dory, Brisco, Terry and Race. Ric wouldn't be pointed to as the/a text book NWA champ in Japan.

 

In the US territories? Sure, of course. In Japan, he was pedestrian given the NWA standards.

[Jingus]

Yeah, that's a big point. Flair's the opposite of what the Japanese model for a world champion was at that time. He was a cowardly, cheating, stooging heel. Of course he toned down that aspect of his character when he worked Japan, but it was still there; and all it takes is one instance of begging off and going "Noooo!" on his knees to absolutely kill his credibility dead in the eyes of a mid-80s AJPW crowd.

 

Him being such a prototypical "melodramatic rassler" didn't help either, with his bright dyed hair and his giant fluffy robes and his theatrical bumps and his OH GAWD shrieking. Back then the Japanese crowds tended to prefer their gaijin superstars to be serious asskickers, either wild take-no-shit brawlers like (insert favorite Texan here) or highly-skilled technical athletes like Backlund or Brisco, and Flair's showmanship didn't fit any of those parts.

 

Also, he didn't have the regional longevity of the other old NWA touring champions. Guys like the Funks had been going there for long years, building up the crowd's respect for them over time. Flair's entire Japanese experience before returning as the defending champion was a two-week tour of All Japan back in 1978.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've watched pretty much all the title defences in question from Dory to Flair and I don't think Ric was more or less over than any of the previous champs in Japan.

 

I really don't agree with you on this point. Jdw is right that "it was the title", but I don't see how Flair paled next to previous champs.

 

Also: Brisco and Terry were both emotional performers in Japan. Terry would yell when selling and was a showman even in 1970s, Brisco worked 85% from underneath and did his share of subtle stooging on occasion. Can we not make things up please. The crowds were always quieter for longer title matches than they were for raucous brawls.

 

I can honestly say this argument is a total waste of time.

[ohtani's jacket]

So would you argue that Flair was as big of a legend in Japan as Thesz, Dory, Brisco, Terry or Race, or that the Flair touring champ was as over in Japan as it was in the territories?