Loss Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 X Division matches have *not* impressed me at all at this point, especially those of AJ Styles. His matches are convoluted crap, from what I can see. I've watched him every week on TNA, and all he's good for are highspots. Even on the ROH I've seen, he tends to bring down the talent he's working with, in the sense that his opponents typically have far better matches with other people. My biggest issue with him is just that he does highspot after highspot without any real rhyme or reason. I just can't buy his shit. Ditto Christopher Daniels, actually. I have no problem with wrestlers busting out highspots. Rey Misterio Jr is probably the very best high flyer of all time, but he's the type of wrestler that can work matches without even hitting a bunch of crazy spots and still put together a fantastic match. He has a great mind for wrestling. Maybe Styles will get there one day, I don't know, but at this point, the in-ring product in TNA has really come across as being *worse* to me than that of WWE overall, if only because WWE at least attempts to add some sort of psychology to their matches and build a story, even if it is a crappy one. I don't know that TNA has anyone on hand who's keeping things in mind like not letting spots be repeated multiple times on one show, or if they have road agents helping the young guys put together good matches. Ricky Morton would probably jump at the chance; he even worked for TNA a few years back, so I know he's available. Most people would totally disagree with this, but just to show the difference in talent between WWE and TNA, I think the only guy in TNA who is better than Christian or Booker T is Samoa Joe. That doesn't even get into the upper level of talent in WWE, but that puts the difference in perspective, at least from my point of view. Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 He does break out of the high spot fests a lot. You just have to be lucky to catch those matches. His Lockdown match with Abyss was pretty good. Actually I think you should give Abyss a closer look. He's probably the most underrated wrestler and the best big man in wrestling right now. He's pulled some amazing carry jobs over the last 4 months and he works really well with smaller wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 In a way, someone being a spot machine makes me like them more since everyone in WWE has to use the same boring style. TNA certainly needs to fine tune some aspects of their product to be fully on WWE's level, but WWE is so stagnant right now that even a flawed TNA show beats WWE on many levels besides talent. Another thing to consider is that you see WWE talent twice a week, and have so for years. TNA kinda has to stop and re-introduce the national audience to their roster so right now it's kind of a "look what everyone can do" phase before they can go in and start getting people invested in characters. I know when I first saw an AJ Styles match I was unimpressed. After getting a chance to get a handle on his character, it let me get into matches I probably wouldn't have before. I'd wager once everyone gets a chance to get some depth on who everyone is, you might enjoy the product a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 He's just a spot monkey. The only close to great matches I've seen him in was when he was being carried by Joe. He's certainly not an elite worker, but a lot of masturbatory, spot-fest wrestlers are always being propped up as elite workers by the internet (see Angle, Kurt). I'll say that Daniels is easily better in the ring than Christian or Booker T though. Ditto for Aries and Strong (although they aren't really "TNA guys"). Styles might be slightly better. But what have those 2 ever done in the ring? Christian has tons of charisma and is more of a total package than those guys, but neither of them are exactly good workers. They're more like above average. Daniels/Roderick/Aries' body of work kills those 2 guys. It's not even close. And while you could say that Christian and Booker T are just being screwed over by the lame WWE style, I'll go on record as saying I doubt either would be tearing it up with the shackles off either. TNA's TV really sucks. It's no better, or worse, than your typical RAW or Smackdown. Lately, TNA's PPVs kill WWE's though. From a match quality standpoint, Unbreakable and Sacrifice were at least even with WMXXI. And that's WWE's big show. Nevermind the smaller, crappier PPVs they've been putting on. Mind you, that can be directly attributed to one man. If Joe wasn't around, Styles and Daniels don't have those matches, and TNA is left with typical spotty spot spot-spot. Instead of having close to **** matches near the top, they're left with maybe one *** match on the undercard. Such is the advantage of having a top 3 worker with the shackles off I guess. But ROH really deserves the credit for Joe, not TNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 I think Styles and Daniels would be having great matches without Joe. He makes them better, no doubt, but it's not like he's working with schlubs that need carried. I'm not really a huge Styles fan but to dismiss him as a mere "spot monkey" is just beyond stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 How is is stupid when it's the truth? He doesn't structure a match well, and his pacing sucks. What should I call him then? A world class worker? It's fairly obvious that he likes to roll out the spots for no rhyme or reason. What would be "beyond stupid", is not realizing that, given how obvious it is. And it doesn't mean he sucks, it just means that he's not very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 It's your opinon, and you're entitled to it. There seems to be a fairly wide consensus among both smart and markish fans that AJ is one of the top ten (if not top five) US based workers. You seem to have a personal bias against him, and I'm going to go out on a limb here based on your username and assume you're a puro fan. It sounds like if someone doesn't go out there and structure a match like Misawa or Kobashi, then they're a spot monkey. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Woo, here comes the puro mark card. That is so 1999. Nice try, but it makes you look like a giant idiot, especially if I was to say something like "I think Samoa Joe and Bryan Danielson are 2 of the top 5 workers in the world". I guess it's just easier to throw around the bias card, rather than intelligently debating anything. Then again, there is no intelligent argument that Styles isn't a spotty worker, so I guess I understand your desperation. But hey, if you want to dismiss the argument that Styles is a spot-whore just because those people might be Japanese wrestling fans, so be it. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Well if you act like a puro snob, don't get your panties in a bunch when someone calls you on it. A lot of AJ's TNA matches have been spot fests because they put him in 3 ways that are booked for maximum spottage. I just happened to pick up a DVD set of AJ Styles from his NWA Wildside days, and while it was from 2003 or so, it showed to me the guy can work in a non-spotfest and do it well. It's already been mentioned that he's had a few good non-spotfest matches in TNA, but hey it must mean AJ and TNA are starting to make inroads to becoming popular when the smarts start turning on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Mm hmm. Like in typical puro-snob tradition I gave props to SAMOA JOE for carrying Daniels and Styles. Not to mention giving praise to Roderick Strong and Austin Aries. Why don't you just quit now before you really make an ass of yourself? The terrible logic here is mind-numbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 The same Samoa Joe who was on WO last night talking about his Puro and MMA background, and working with Kobashi and Liger....yeah that really proves me wrong. Not to mention Aries and Strong work for ROH, who book for the smart crowd, so it's no shock you like them as well. I'm not seeing how that makes me look foolish, but okay. Here's a question, have you ever seen any AJ matches beyond his recent TNA work or are you pulling a Batista and just dismissing the guy based on clips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hitman89762000 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 I'll just add my thoughts to this.... Firstly the smarks are on here eh? Any chance of just ENJOYING wrestling rather than moaning? looks like AJ and TNA must be doing something right if the supposed Clique of fans that has to turn on people is now turning on them! Yes he does do a lot of spot fests BUT he's not the same as say Jeff Hardy who relys on the same few moves all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 The best Styles match I have seen is 7/23/05 vs. Jimmy Rave in a streetfight in ROH. Rave carries him and Styles isn't goofy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 The best Styles match I have seen is 7/23/05 vs. Jimmy Rave in a streetfight in ROH. Rave carries him and Styles isn't goofy. Rave carried AJ? You're obviously a puro nerd~! I'm almost at that show in my ROH watching, I'll be looking forward to it. I think Joe vs. Styles might be a bit hard to beat though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hitman89762000 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Jimmy Rave's a decent wrestler my view is he shoulda won that match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Once Rave dropped all of his shit, he has become quite the wrestler. Starting with the Punk match in February of this year, I have enjoyed almost all of his matches. Can't say nearly the same for Styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 TNA needs to stop putting Styles in three ways every PPV. They can't seem to resist putting as many high flyers in the ring as possible, which does nothing but encourage spot-mania. I'd like to see Styles go one on one with someone and let that decide once and for all if he's worth all the praise or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dangerous A Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 I think Styles just needs more work on his pacing and timing of things. The tools and athleticism are there in spades. However, you can really see the difference when Styles is leashed in by Joe, Daniels, and even Jerry Lynn. It's when Styles gets in with daredevils like Red or the Briscoe Bros. that you see him trying to play one upsmanship and he loses his mind instead of using it. Thing is, Styles may end up like Cena to where he feels he doesn't have to change or improve anything because the fans love him just the same. Cena doesn't improve because he doesn't have to (which totally hurts him to me because he understands selling, but hates execution and pysch) and I'm afraid Styles is heading in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny Dubya v 2.0 Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hm... I can't really judge Styles for myself at this point, having just watched TNA, but what he's been allowed to do on TV thus far does fall short of all the praise I've heard. I think I'm starting to understand the Mall Boy Look criticism too. Thing is, Styles may end up like Cena to where he feels he doesn't have to change or improve anything because the fans love him just the same. Cena doesn't improve because he doesn't have to (which totally hurts him to me because he understands selling, but hates execution and pysch) and I'm afraid Styles is heading in that direction.I know this conversation isn't about Cena at all, but do you think that Cena would really step up his in-ring game where it falls short if the fans started giving him the same treatment as when babyface Rock got tiresome to everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dorian Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Dan most likely. Usually when fans turn against a wrestler, it gives them this insane need to better themselves. I heard a lot of praise about Styles, but with everyone questioning it, I'm beginning to wonder what to expect when I get glimpse of what he can do. Really off topic @ Dan: What the hell is your avvy from? I've seen her but can't think of what she's from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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