ohtani's jacket Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Discussion of the European candidates each year seems to begin and end with Big Daddy, but since some of the posters here have ballots, I thought I would break down the candidates one wrestler at a time. Jim Breaks Pros: * Considered to be one of the all-time greats in both the lightweight and welterweight divisions * Career spanned four decades from the early 50s to the early 90s * Viewed as one of the new style lightweights who changed the way lightweight matches were worked * Was on television almost 150 times * Featured prominently on the first two Wembley Arena shows, four times on Cup Final Day and more than twenty Royal Albert Hall shows * Had a number of great television matches * Frequent title holder Cons * Limited footage * No gate figures or TV ratings * Not as big a star as other names on the ballot * Not a true main eventer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Big Daddy Pros: * Huge national star * Crossed over into the mainstream * Massively over with crowds * Responsible for an upturn in business after mid-70s slump * Drew Joint Promotions' three biggest gates Cons: * Historically bad worker * Wrestled short, sometimes terrible matches * Major matches a huge disappointment work wise * Was a dividing locker room figure * Caused numerous wrestlers to leave Joint Promotions * Wasn't an international draw * The houses he drew were small by overseas standards * Was also on top when business declined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Giant Haystacks Pros: * Also a national star of note with mainstream crossover appeal * Generally regarded as a better worker than Daddy * Invited each summer to the German and Austrian tournaments * Won the IBV European Championship heavyweight tournament in Bremen in 1982 * Won the Vienna tournament in 1985 and the Graz tournament in '85, '88 and '89 * British Heavyweight champion in 1978 * Helped draw the '81 Wembley gate after a long feud with Daddy Cons: * A limited worker * Matches boring and repetitive * Weight gain affected work rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Haystacks worked far more places in general than Daddy, though rarely very successfully. Stampede, New Zealand (had a match against Andre the Giant there), WCW, even All-Japan for one tour. Maybe some other out-of-the-way places internationally as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 While Saint and Rocco have their "influence" cases, is there any argument against Breaks having the best case of the "great worker" types? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Horst Hoffman Pros: * Big star in Germany during the 60s and early 70s * Successful amateur * Considered a superb wrestler * European Heavyweight Champion from 1971 to 1974 * Won the IBV German Championship heavyweight tournament 10 times between 1960 and 1975 and once as a middleweight in 1958 * Won the IBV European Championship heavyweight tournament 9 times between 1962 and 1975 * Won the Dortmund tournament three times from '66-68 * Won Munich 6 times between 1966 and 1976 * Won upwards of 90 German tournaments in total * Memorable heel run in the AWA teaming with Baron Von Raschke * Had 4 tours of All Japan and 3 tours for IWE Cons: * Extremely limited footage * German tournament victories were all promoted by the same promoter Gustl Kaiser * General lack of understanding of German wrestling history and the significance of each tournament * Not a big star internationally * Often noted for a lack of charisma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Billy JoycePros:* Considered to be one of the greatest heavyweights of the post war era and one of the finest technicians of his era* Often referred to as the best wrestler to come out of Wigan's Snake Pit* One of the last British workers to be considered a "ripper," a shooter who could genuinely hurt people* Six time British Heavyweight Champion from 1958 to 1966* One time European Heavyweight Champion in 1961 * Dropped both titles to Billy Robinson in '67 and '65 respectively to put him over * Took over most of the training duties at the Snake Pit in the 60s and 70s with Ernie Riley, son of Bill Riley * Had a hand in training Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch, as well as Alan Woods, John Naylor, and Dynamite Kid briefly.Cons:* No footage whatsoever* Often said to be uncharismatic and overshadowed by more flamboyant wrestlers* No clear evidence that he was a draw* Disliked traveling thus didn't raise his profile overseas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Kendo Nagasaki Pros: * One of the biggest stars in British wrestling history to the point where he's still featured on television and in print today * Enduring gimmick and a decent worker * Was a big draw in the 70s and 80s and continued to draw even after wrestling lost television * Like Haystacks, traveled more extensively than some of the other names on the ballot * Several legendary feuds such as Count Bartelli in the mid 60s and Big Daddy in the mid 70s * His unmasking on New Year's Eve 1977 was one of the most highly anticipated and most memorable moments of wrestling's run on ITV Cons: * Failed move to the indies in the mid 70s led to his first retirement and when he returned to Joint and television was never the same again * Failed face turn after unmasking * Involved in plenty of silliness in the waning days of wrestling on ITV (disco ladder match with Cliver Myers, hypnotizing Regal and Brookside) * Said to have become somewhat aimless after the death of his manager George E. Gillette * No dead set classic match on tape * At least a dozen or more better heavyweights wrestling in the country at any point in his career Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNLister Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Not sure if it's just a UK thing, but there's usually a distinction between hooker and ripper here. It varies, but the most common explanation is that a hooker is a shooter who knows submissions, while a ripper is somebody for whom causing injury is the priority, ahead of winning a match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Thanks for that. I keep reading that Joyce wasn't mean enough and didn't want to hurt people, so was he really a ripper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Good thread, here are my 2 cents on some cons where I might be able to give some perspective Horst Hoffman Cons: * Extremely limited footage * German tournament victories were all promoted by the same promoter Gustl Kaiser * General lack of understanding of German wrestling history and the significance of each tournament * Not a big star internationally * Often noted for a lack of charisma - I'm not exactly sure why the limited (!) amount of footage would speak against him - would you use the same amount against Sammartino or Lawler? - look at it like "one tournament is like one successfull main event feud and thus a good business period" - Not many people could have his standing in Japan and the AWA, name me one person who could do it and is considered a fluke I have a book about Gustl, which is quite interesting in it's own respect. In regards to Horsts wins: His placings in 1976 are 1, 1, 2, 1 and his Chris Taylor was in either second or first place in those tournaments. His placings in 1971 are 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 and Dick Beyer was the second in 5 consecutive tournaments Now, who here believes that a tournament with these final pairings was lacking? In 1965 they did such a "finals feud" vs Billy Robinson who one once and Horst won three times, who here would put that against Robinson? Horst was the #1 Kaiser guy from 1962 on, if he was present they built the tournament around him. Btw, we do probably have legit numbers for all of Kaisers post war tournaments. Between 1946 and 1976 he had 6404 tournament days, ~22 days per tournament and attendance was 12 473 474 - 1947 fans per day. I absolutely wouldn't mind a discussion if Kaiser might be HoF material solely based on that numbers in another thread. As a by-product of years of work you can see at http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=shows&sort=liga&kategorie=8&liga=1485&jahr=1954&showart=&ansicht=1 an example for a year, iirc two tournaments from that year are missing. Check out how many matches the guys on the roster had to get a feel for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 What I meant by limited footage is that there's not much footage of him for voters to watch including none from Germany that I know of. German tournaments aren't something I am very familiar with and I imagine that is true for most voters. I'm not even sure how important the tournaments were in relation to each other as most people are only aware of Hanover. Hoffman being booked to win each tournament by Kaiser was only a possible con, if he was the biggest star in the promotion or indeed the country then it makes sense, but it's something Daddy gets held against him in relation to Brian and Max Crabtree. I can't speak for his AWA standing, but I don't think he was a big star in Japan. Certainly not on Billy Robinson or Frank Gotch's level. Kaiser is an interesting guy for a candidate. Is it fair to say he was the most important German promoter of the post-war period? Promoters haven't really gotten a look in for the European section yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Jackie Pallo Pros: * Mr. TV, one of the first guys to take full advantage of the opportunities TV exposure brought * Household name in Britain * One of the first wrestlers to adopt a razzmatazz television gimmick * Forged a show business career that included number acting appearances * Cup Final Day match with McManus purportedly drew a massive number of viewers Cons: * Breakaway independent promotion failed * Was said to be a poor businessman * Other wrestlers didn't have a high opinion of him as a worker * Not a hugely popular figure in the locker room * Only one full match of his survives on tape * Worked a comedy style some may not appreciate * 1985 autobiography exposed the business * Only had one championship run, the British Heavy-Middleweight title in 1969, which he won during a feud with Bert Royal * More than likely wasn't trusted by promoters due to his constant threats to break away and form his own promotion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Kaiser should be probably the choice as he was the one who was successful (afaik he left the business a milionaire) and good for the wrestling business as well. Look at the link, he promoted almost everyday seemingly so he had a full time territory and covered quite an area. The other promoters were either limited to one or two towns at some point or it was more a crash and burn style like in the metropoles of the 1950s (Hamburg, Munich, Berlin), I think it was 1970 when the Hannover promoter had 150k attendance for that tournament with +50 days, back then he was still touring with his roster/troupe a bit but he doesn't have the longevity of Kaiser. The main difference between Daddy and Hoffman or other people in his role is that he wasn't involved in the territory, at least not to my knowledge. But who would use that argument against guys like Lawler, Sammartino, Dick the Bruiser and Larry Zbyszko here? The more I think about the anti-Daddy arguments the more obvious it is that nobody really knows much about the British scene at all. Nobody uses old Philadelphia TV to see how WWE was booked. If somebody finally manages to get Ray Plunkett to send us his result lists the situation might improve in about 1-2 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Who was promoting in Austria (the Heumarkt in Vienna etc.) before Wanz? Kaiser as well? Blemenschütz himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 There was a down phase in the early 50s, then Kaiser and his IBV had a good year in either 54 or 55 there with Blemenschütz on top so of course Blemenschütz decided to oust the IBV and take control. The venue (skating rink) owners were really in charge so they got rid of Blemenschütz around 1980 and replaced him with Wanz. At least that is my current knowledge of the issue. The lack of post war sources would make working on this area rather ineffective so it has been laying dormant pretty much. Best case scenario would be that the sons of Selenkowitsch and Zurth start sharing their fathers collections and the NISH dropping their archivists stance, but don't hold your breath. Austria will get interesting once ANNO will have papers from 1946. If they decide not to go past 1945 I'll declare war on your country (I have already accumulated thousands of clippings from there, so if you or somebody else wants them just drop a PM and hope I notice it). At least Zefys has now at least one good 190X Berlin paper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Rollerball Mark Rocco Pros: * A television favourite particularly during the 1977-80 period * Arguably one of the most successful heel acts in British wrestling history * Decorated British and World Heavy-Middleweight Champion * Pioneered an explosive new work rate style in matches against Marty Jones and Dynamite Kid * Highly regarded by his peers * Wrestled frequently in North America and Japan * One of the key figures to jump to Brian Dixon's rival All-Star Promotions where he was heavily pushed and presumably a draw Cons: * Work has been negatively critiqued in recent years, particularly his work as Black Tiger in Japan * Strangely, never featured that prominently on Cup Final Days, Royal Albert Hall shows or the Wembley spectaculars, though in the case of the later his billed 1981 clash with Sammy Lee fell through, as did a heavily promoted Royal Albert Hall clash with Kung Fu in '82, which Rocco covered for brilliantly on the night * Not really an international light weight draw. Overshadowed by Dynamite Kid in that respect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Johnny Saint Pros: * 'Overnight sensation' when debuting for Joint Promotions in 1969 after ten years on the independent circuit * Captured George Kidd's vacant World Lightweight Championship in 1976 defeating Jim Breaks for the title * Presented as the spiritual heir to Kidd and kayfabed as his pupil (actually had very little to do with Kidd and was trained by Billy Robinson) * 10 time World Lightweight Champion as well as British and European Lightweight Champion * Positioned as the top British lightweight wrestler of the 70s and 80s and more or less continental Europe as well * Featured on Cup Final Day three times in his 70s heyday and a regular at the Royal Albert Hall * A regular television fixture from his television debut in 1969 through to the end of wrestling on TV in 1988 * Enjoyed a late career comeback in part to the renaissance of World of Sport through The Wrestling Channel * Greater influence over modern indy workers than any other Euro candidate on the ballot Cons: * Was never really in demand in North America or Japan * Questionable whether he was as good an in-ring worker as other lightweights such as Grey, Breaks or Cortez * Idiosyncratic style * As with all lightweight candidates, actual drawing strength difficult to ascertain * Strangely, not on any of the Wembley Arena shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Otto Wanz Pro: * Successful amateur boxing background * Long wrestling career from the late 60s to 90s * Huge name in his home country * Became promoter of the CWA in the late 80s * Former AWA World Heavyweight Champion * Four time CWA World Heavyweight Champion * Defended the CWA title 32 times for 29 wins and 3 losses * Won the IBV German Championship tournament three times ('78, '81 and '85) and the European Championship twice ('77 and '78) * Won the Hanover tournament in '85 and again from '87-89 * Won Bremen multiple times from 1972 to 1978 as well as Dortmund from '72 to '90 * Multiple time winner in Munich, Graz and Linz * Legitimate strongman supposedly with Guinness record for destroying phone books * Wrestled all over the world. Bigger headliner than anyone else in the category Cons: * Not a good reputation as a worker * Stigma of having "bought" the AWA title * Unfairly (?) stigmatised for booking himself on top * Question of whether drawing data is available for voters * Promotion ultimately failed, or rather stopped promoting wrestling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Johnny Saint Pros: * 'Overnight sensation' when debuting for Joint Promotions in 1969 after ten years on the independent circuit * Captured George Kidd's vacant World Lightweight Championship in 1976 defeating Jim Breaks for the title * Presented as the spiritual heir to Kidd and kayfabed as his pupil (actually had very little to do with Kidd and was trained by Billy Robinson) * 10 time World Lightweight Champion as well as British and European Lightweight Champion * Positioned as the top British lightweight wrestler of the 70s and 80s and more or less continental Europe as well * Featured on Cup Final Day three times in his 70s heyday and a regular at the Royal Albert Hall * A regular television fixture from his television debut in 1969 through to the end of wrestling on TV in 1988 * Enjoyed a late career comeback in part to the renaissance of World of Sport through The Wrestling Channel * Greater influence over modern indy workers than any other Euro candidate on the ballot Cons: * Was never really in demand in North America or Japan * Questionable whether he was as good an in-ring worker as other lightweights such as Grey, Breaks or Cortez * Idiosyncratic style * As with all lightweight candidates, actual drawing strength difficult to ascertain * Strangely, not on any of the Wembley Arena shows Would Grey be a stronger candidate than Saint if he were on the ballot? Or is he only a stronger worker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 The only advantage Grey would have is that he was a better worker, but then probably only you and I and a few other people in our circle believe that. The rest of people out in voter land no doubt believe Saint to be synonymous with the British style. The only other slight advantage Grey might have is that he didn't jump to All-Star so he was on TV consistently throughout the 80s whereas Saint disappears from TV after '82 and his only matches available after that are Screen Sport, German handhelds and All-Star's brief run at sharing the time slot. Aside from that, Grey was always positioned as second to Saint. He was the British Lightweight Champion to Saint's World Lightweight Champion, not as big a star as Saint in the mid-to-late 70s (Saint's heyday), and I'm not sure if he ever traveled abroad (perhaps to places like Pakistan or South Africa.) It was harder for lightweights to travel than the bigger guys. He did get more exposure than Saint in the very late 70s with his lengthy feud with Breaks. They were a heavily promoted part of the undercard for the first Wembley Arena show. But I don't think that improves Grey's overall standing vs Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Johnny Saint Cons: * Idiosyncratic style Interesting that you put the style as a con. I also think Saint is a gimmick worker that is great to see once in a while but not every week, maybe like a Super Kendo or something. However I believe that most (all?) of the people that will vote for him will mainly do so for his style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I figured it may be a turnoff for some voters the way lucha can be. You're probably right about it being the reason people vote for him, but it will take more than their votes to get him into the hall I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 While Saint and Rocco have their "influence" cases, is there any argument against Breaks having the best case of the "great worker" types? I've kind of softened on Rocco recently. His work in the late 70s was extremely good. I'm even inclined to think he has the best case out of all three of them simply because of the way Dixon used him in All-Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 In regards to the pantherwagner post I have to ask aloud why anyone should even care about the question if a wrestler could only be successful as a special attraction. Or would you use that argument against Andre the Giant? Man, I sound like a broken record Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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