Daisuke Sekimoto

[Alan4L]

a match which captures me emotionally has heart. A match which I just watch and think "so this is a match" doesn't have much heart. I watch Sekimoto vs Shinobu from this year and it engages my emotions as a viewer. I watch Sugiura matches in recent years and I just watch them with no real emotional reaction. They're matches, they're fine, he works hard, but I stop thinking about them right after they finish.

[W2BTD]

 

 

His matches have way more heart and story than the likes of Suwama, Morishima, and Sugiura. And I like all those guys, but they're not in Daisuke's class. They don't even sniff his class.

Heart? What do you mean by heart? His willingness to withstand a certain amount of Chops? I don't think "heart" is a quality that really matters in pro-wrestling. Brock Lesnar doesn't have any "heart" but he's better than a million guys that do. Story? Pro-wrestling matches in general aren't examples of great narration and Sekimoto would be the last guy to credit for something like that. I saw that Sekimoto vs Okabayashi match. I have it ranked as the 31st greatest japanese pro wrestling match that occurred in 2013. I can see why some would rate it higher-even a lot higher-but for someone to rate Sekimoto as one of the greatest 20 wrestlers ever based on matches like that being the most high-end stuff he's done......don't get it sorry.

 

 

I'm baffled by the bold.

 

I used "heart & fight" to describe Sekimoto in my first post in the thread, and those are two of the qualities you would probably find in most of my favorite wrestlers. I am a huge fan of guys who convey a real sense of heart in their work, because that's what gets me emotionally invested in a match. It's like what Alan said earlier, you can watch a perfectly executed match that you forget about five minutes after watching it, because it has no soul. Sekimoto is a guy who almost always pulls me in emotionally because he gets across a real sense of heart in his bouts. I can see where some might think he goes a little heavy on the fighting spirit sometimes, but I dont care because I love that shit and see it as a plus most of the time. I like my wrestlers to fight to the death like losing the match is the last fucking thing on Earth they want to happen, and you need to kill them to beat them. And that's Sekimoto's style.

 

As for wrestling matches not being good vehicles for telling stories...well, we're obviously on very different pages if you believe that.

[W2BTD]

 

 

I don't think Sekimoto has a single major flaw.

This might be true. Might. I struggle to find anything he does insulting. But he doesn't really have a single major quality. And what makes him better than say, Suwama, Morishima, Sugiura, Go Shiozaki, Takaiwa, Kojima or Okabayashi? What is your argument for Sekimoto as a top 20 guy of all professional wrestling ever? What are the matches that he has produced that you are so high on that you would put him on that level?

 

 

I think he's roughly a million times better than Morishima, who I think is generally terrible.

 

I like Suwama, Shiozaki, Okabayashi, & Suguira just fine, a couple of those guys would probably make my 100, but Sekimoto is pretty easily better than all of them.

 

Kojima I am a huge fan of, and I think he's criminally underrated. That one is close, but I prefer Sekimoto. I wouldn't argue with anybody who said Kojima was better.

[Alan4L]

 

 

 

I don't think Sekimoto has a single major flaw.

This might be true. Might. I struggle to find anything he does insulting. But he doesn't really have a single major quality. And what makes him better than say, Suwama, Morishima, Sugiura, Go Shiozaki, Takaiwa, Kojima or Okabayashi? What is your argument for Sekimoto as a top 20 guy of all professional wrestling ever? What are the matches that he has produced that you are so high on that you would put him on that level?

 

 

I think he's roughly a million times better than Morishima, who I think is generally terrible.

 

I like Suwama, Shiozaki, Okabayashi, & Suguira just fine, a couple of those guys would probably make my 100, but Sekimoto is pretty easily better than all of them.

 

Kojima I am a huge fan of, and I think he's criminally underrated. That one is close, but I prefer Sekimoto. I wouldn't argue with anybody who said Kojima was better.

 

 

When looking at overall careers I'd go:

 

Sekimoto

Kojima

Shiozaki (big drop from the top two)

Sugiura

Okabayashi

Morishima

Suwama

 

Not to say I don't like Suwama but he's frustrating as often as he's brilliant.

[stomperspc]

His matches have way more heart and story than the likes of Suwama, Morishima, and Sugiura. And I like all those guys, but they're not in Daisuke's class. They don't even sniff his class.

As Jmare said, there is a great list of matches in the Microscope thread including this one which I just added. It's a very different style of match for him as it's really really focused on a body part instead of overall demolition.

 

I haven't watched that match since it happened but I remember thinking it was a lot of fun. I think in general, Sekimoto is better when he is working holds and doing limb work. You don't get that a lot from wrestlers with his build and it adds another dimension. Sekimoto cranking back on a Boston Crab looks a lot more brutal than when other guys do it. I thought the opening minutes of his title match versus Shinya Ishikawa from May was good for similar reasons. They exchanged basic holds but it all looked really crisp. Two guys like that can use head lock and leg scissor spots and still convey a real sense of violence and pain. Now maybe I haven't seen all the right matches, but I'd wish he'd work more of his matches like that (focused attacks built around holds) rather than matches that delve into slug fests.

 

As a striker, I don't think much of him. Tends to be a little too back and forth in that regard. The fighting spirit spots in his matches don't bother me as much as they do in other matches, because over the past few years at least, he has done a good job in general of utilizing them at the right time and in the right manner. He's a good wrestler and I'd certainly have him among the best non-New Japan modern Japanese heavyweights, but that is not top 100 worthy or anything. I definitely wouldn't have him in the same group as people like Taue, Baba, or even Akiyama.

[GOTNW]

 

Really? Conveying a great desire to win and overcome the odds isn't important in pro wrestling?

Conveying a "great desire to win and overcome the odds" requires skill. Selling something with facial expressions and movements is a very important part of pro wrestling. It's not heart. Kobashi has heart, but if his passion translated into being a subpar professional wrestler instead of a great one I wouldn't care about him.

[Childs]

 

 

Really? Conveying a great desire to win and overcome the odds isn't important in pro wrestling?

Conveying a "great desire to win and overcome the odds" requires skill. Selling something with facial expressions and movements is a very important part of pro wrestling. It's not heart. Kobashi has heart, but if his passion translated into being a subpar professional wrestler instead of a great one I wouldn't care about him.

 

 

I don't think it was hard to interpret that Alan and Joe were describing Sekimoto's ability to convey passion in his work. Your refusal to see that just comes off as obtuse and dickish.

 

If you want to make an actual argument about Sekimoto's flaws, make it.

[GOTNW]

 

a match which captures me emotionally has heart. A match which I just watch and think "so this is a match" doesn't have much heart. I watch Sekimoto vs Shinobu from this year and it engages my emotions as a viewer. I watch Sugiura matches in recent years and I just watch them with no real emotional reaction. They're matches, they're fine, he works hard, but I stop thinking about them right after they finish.

But can you point to what it is that Sekimoto does that engages you emotionally that Sugiura doesn't do?

I used "heart & fight" to describe Sekimoto in my first post in the thread, and those are two of the qualities you would probably find in most of my favorite wrestlers. I am a huge fan of guys who convey a real sense of heart in their work, because that's what gets me emotionally invested in a match. It's like what Alan said earlier, you can watch a perfectly executed match that you forget about five minutes after watching it, because it has no soul. Sekimoto is a guy who almost always pulls me in emotionally because he gets across a real sense of heart in his bouts. I can see where some might think he goes a little heavy on the fighting spirit sometimes, but I dont care because I love that shit and see it as a plus most of the time. I like my wrestlers to fight to the death like losing the match is the last fucking thing on Earth they want to happen, and you need to kill them to beat them. And that's Sekimoto's style.

 

I absolutely agree with the bolded. I can think of so many guys that are great at getting "it" in professional wrestling and all the things I could point to with them. Can you do the same for Sekimoto please? I am interested but all I'm getting from your posts is that Sekimoto "gets it" in your opinion and in mine he doesn't.

 

I don't think it was hard to interpret that Alan and Joe were describing Sekimoto's ability to convey passion in his work. Your refusal to see that just comes off as obtuse and dickish.

I am going to write paragraphs about my favourite workers' ability to do what you could very well describe as "conveying passion into work". I don't expect others to do the same, I just want a more precise idea of what it is that they enjoy about someone I might not (to that extent in this case). How does any of that make me a dick?

 

If you want to make an actual argument about Sekimoto's flaws, make it.

As I have already said I don't think Sekimoto has any huge flaws. It's just that what he does doesn't impress me on a profound level that it does Alan and Joe because it mostly comes off as dull and emotionless to me.

 

As for wrestling matches not being good vehicles for telling stories...well, we're obviously on very different pages if you believe that.

I'm not saying pro wrestling matches can't tell great stories. It's just that most pro wrestlng matches don't even have any narrative. Some pro wrestling matches have stories but they aren't great. Very little pro wrestling matches have told stories I consider great. Hence "in general". I definitely don't see it with Sekimoto but by all means make an argument for Sekimoto being a great storyteller.

[Jetlag]

I liked Sekimoto when I first got into puro as a blunt introduction to the styles tropes, but in hindsight he feels like the worlds most limited wrestler. He has a total of two facial expressions and I feel like I can count the matches of his that don't go by filler opening work->strike exchanges->signature moves->2,99999 ending run peppered with lots of fighting spirit spots with one hand. Also, I don't think I remember him ever being the best guy in his best matches - his partner Y Sasaki was a better worker than him. Overall Seki ranges from fun to hideously boring and he's nowhere close to my Top 100. I'm a little shocked so many people feel he's that high.

[Jmare007]

I think his case has gotten way stronger in the last 5 years. He basically made a switch and decided that in most singles matches he was going to slow the fuck down, work holds and make every move matter, and it has worked wonderfully with people like Hideki Suzuki, Ryota Hama, Yuji Hino and Kodaka (and most of his Strong Climb matches tbh). Of course he still has more traditional bangers like the ones against Kento Miyahara, Zeus (which caps a really good Champions Carnival run) and trying to kill each other with Kohei Sato.

You add to that the fact that he remained an incredible tag team worker, to the point I think he is the best tag worker of this century. Sure, tag teams have been mostly shoved aside since the early 2000s, but I honestly think the only one that can rival Daisuke is Cesaro. His team with Okabayashi is basically the best tag team of the decade with The Young Bucks being their only competition (that's such an interesting conversation btw).

I think a lot of the negatives @Jetlag made 7 years ago have been answered in the last 4 to 5 years, at least to warrant a second look.

[Makai Club #1]

Sekimoto had a terrible year in 2020. I can't think of one good match that he had. It was consistently underwhelming, regardless of opponent, partner or promotion. 

 

Sekimoto had a good run from 2015 to 2019 as a good wrestler who consistently good matches in a promotion that has non deathmatch wrestling as a secondary division. But I'm not so big on him before this. It'll be hard to include him. 

[Jmare007]

58 minutes ago, Makai Club #1 said:

Sekimoto had a terrible year in 2020. I can't think of one good match that he had. It was consistently underwhelming, regardless of opponent, partner or promotion. 

 

You didn't think even the match against Astronauts was at least "good"?

[Makai Club #1]

No. I have no clue what people were watching. To me, it was an okay match at best. 

[Quentin]

Love Sekimoto, made my list last time and will make it again but I don’t think his work in the last 5 years is substantial enough to have him move up and the more I dive in to other candidates, could see him slide down a few spots.