Mad Dog Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 So Chikara Pro had some 16 man elimination match that went for 104 minutes over the weekend. This spurred an interesting debate elsewhere about match length. IMO, there's no credible way for a wrestling match to go to 104 minutes. I just don't see how even the most gifted workers could make that long of a match work. I think it's too long to keep people's attention and I don't think any wrestler has the kind of moveset to make that work. I notice my enjoyment of matches starts to slowly dip at the 45 minute mark. I've only liked a few matches that have gone around 60 minutes (not counting Rumbles) and I think 60-65 minutes is about the max that any match should go. What are your opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 This reminds me of guys who try to set the record for holding someone up in a vertical suplex. There's just no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Well, if 2 guys can hold my interest for an hour then I don't see why 16 can't do enough to make it interesting for a little bit longer than that. Plus, I believe this was a cibernetico match where the rules are a little different. You may be completely right and this may be a waste of time but I am not going to let the length deter me from watching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Yeah, the rules are a bit different, interesting gimmick from what I just read but by o means enough to carry a match. Here's the list of participants in case you were wondering: Chris Hero Gran Akuma Skayde Blind Rage Sabian Jigsaw Hallowicked Shane Storm UltraMantis Black Icarus Mister ZERO Claudio Castagnoli Eddie Kingston Arik Cannon Mike Quackenbush Milano Collection AT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 If it's a 16 man elimination match, going 104 minutes isn't a big problem. In fact, matches like that need to go a long time, otherwise they're terribly illogical. If you do the math, it actually works out to one elimination every 7 minutes or so, which seems very reasonable. A lot more reasonable than having 7-8 guys get eliminated in a 2 minute stretch, being beaten with moves that would never end a normal match (which was the case with a recent 16-man match from Mexico that I saw). Now if it was singles, or a tag match, then going 104 minutes would almost certainly be a big strokefest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cam Chaos Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I concur. 16 guys going 104 minutes is more believable to me that 10 men going for 12-15 minutes with a person being pinned within 45 seconds of the start of the match. Considering some old school legit catch wrestling matches between two guys went over 2 hours at the beginning of the century, for me to suspend disbelief that it may take almost an hour and fourty five minutes doesn't actually take much effort. Hell, the unlimited rounds light PRIDE FC fight between Kazushi Sakuraba and Royce Gracie went for 90 minutes and only ended after Royce's corner through the towel in and that was just two guys. My interest in a match only wanes if nothing of interest is occuring. I watched UT vs Randy Orton at Mania from bell to bell but have walked out during other matches involving morwe predictable wrestlers on RAW simply because anyone with sense knows who will win, how they will win, what moves they will use and on average how long the match will last, depending on who they are eg Benoit matches last longer than Simon Dean matches and Benoit will use chops, headbutts, suplex, back suplex, superplex, 3 german suplexes (possibly an additional released suplex), one failed attempt at the crossface before he gets it on for the win and maybe a swandive headbutt if it lasts more than 4 minutes. Meanwhile, Sion Dean will likely use ineffective chops, punches, do some push ups, take most of the bumps and either lose or win by cheating or a roll up. Same as Carlito, minus the push ups. If the participants are predictable, I'll turn off over the course of the match. However any inspired performance, regardless of it's length, can keep my attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Agreed. A singles match going that long would be ridiculous, but I can see the case for a match with 15 falls going that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Having a match with 15 falls is ridiculous no matter how long it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Um... not if it is an elmination match with 16 wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I thought the perfect match to fit the Draconian nature of the stips at Survivor Series 2001 would have started with one guy from the WWF facing one guy from the Alliance, with the loser being eliminated and the winner going on to face the next guy out. You could get over at least a half-dozen guys huge in that scenario, with the entire PPV being just one long-running match and the winning side being the one who had successfully eliminated everyone on the other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 You're talking about an elimination series. Those are always good fun and would have worked perfectly in the scenario you stated. New Japan likes to run these, because they usually have 2 stables pitted against each other. Unless there's a reason to have those matches (like 2 groups fighting each other), they're pointless though. But seeing as how WWE has the Smackdown vs. RAW thing going, they could easily do a match like that involving the 2 groups. They might not produce very good stand-alone matches, but the series as a whole usually has some good story-telling going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brian Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Having a match with 15 falls is ridiculous no matter how long it takes. I will send you ciberneticos, and we will see what you leave in your pants after watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I'm not saying I can't be proven wrong, but a 16 man elimination match just sounds so ass-numbing to me. How do they work them, are all 16 guys in the ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 NO, it isn't like a Rumble. Basically, it is an 8 on 8 tag match. You can tag a guy out or if you leave the ring (which happens often in lucha matches), another participant can come in. Therefore, you can have 8 mini matches to establish the character of each wrestler before ANYONE is eliminated. Then you get to the meat of the match with guys getting eliminated one-by-one. Finally you hit the stretch run with the "stars" of the match. It can easily surpass an hour, and if done right, can feel like 20 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest teke184 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 NO, it isn't like a Rumble. Basically, it is an 8 on 8 tag match. You can tag a guy out or if you leave the ring (which happens often in lucha matches), another participant can come in. Therefore, you can have 8 mini matches to establish the character of each wrestler before ANYONE is eliminated. Then you get to the meat of the match with guys getting eliminated one-by-one. Finally you hit the stretch run with the "stars" of the match. It can easily surpass an hour, and if done right, can feel like 20 minutes. The match in question sounds a LOT like the Survivor Series tag match from 1987 that I love so much... The match from Survivor Series was a 20-man tag elimination match including Strike Force (Tito Santana and Rick Martel), the British Bulldogs, the Hart Foundation, Demolition, and others. That one, in the unclipped version, went about 45 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Yeah but the Sur Series match, if I am not mistaken, had both partners eliminated if one of them lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Some Guy Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Both partners were eliminated when one was beaten in the SS matches in 87 and 88. I really enjoy the 88 match which is largely unclipped on the CHV release. There is a ton of good talent in that match and it really could have gone a lot longer and been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 OK, I just picked up the Cibernetico match today from EJ. I plan to make it my wresting match of the night inbetween making the Bret Hart comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Famous Mortimer Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 I had a horrible dream it was another Chris Hero singles match- didn't that one with Punk go over 90 minutes? Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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