JerryvonKramer Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 http://placetobenation.com/all-japan-excite-series-6/ Steven and Parv can barely contain their excitement for another batch of 90s classics. 10/21/92 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada 11/27/92 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba 01/30/93 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy 02/28/93 - Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I knew getting up at half five would be rewarded! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Im about to watch the Kawada v Hansen match again....I recall it being awesome, but still a level below the top tier AJPW matches of the period. ------- OK...watched it again...yep, its an awesome match, but not ***** for me - my idea of what a ***** is based upon what will be seen over the next 2 years of AJPW tv. Two matches in particular which are the very definition of a ***** to me. Kawada v Hansen was merely amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Im about to watch the Kawada v Hansen match again....I recall it being awesome, but still a level below the top tier AJPW matches of the period. ------- OK...watched it again...yep, its an awesome match, but not ***** for me - my idea of what a ***** is based upon what will be seen over the next 2 years of AJPW tv. Two matches in particular which are the very definition of a ***** to me. Kawada v Hansen was merely amazing! Parv made a good point during the discussion, what more can you want from a wrestling match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Cant argue on the point made...what more could you ask for - comes down to intangibles I guess - gut feeling - I think matches like MIsawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue from 09/06/95 or MIsawa v Kawada from 03/06/94 are a notch above...I guess the answer to what more could you want is 'more'...perhaps that's the difference. I wont argue with anyone who give that match ***** - it is absolutely wonderful. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Cant argue on the point made...what more could you ask for - comes down to intangibles I guess - gut feeling - I think matches like MIsawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue from 09/06/95 or MIsawa v Kawada from 03/06/94 are a notch above...I guess the answer to what more could you want is 'more'...perhaps that's the difference. I wont argue with anyone who give that match ***** - it is absolutely wonderful. . Those are the two other matches I've hinted at being 5 stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 More discussion of that match here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30833-best-matches-youve-come-across/?p=5664492 The existence of Ziggy Stardust doesn't downgrade Hunky Dory for me, that's my line of argument. Freewheelin' Bob Dylan doesn't stop being a five star album even if Highway 61 Revistied is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I certainly wont dismiss that line of thinking, its just different to my own point of view. I feel that of something is going to be a given a grade, then if I feel something is better it should be rated higher, otherwise whats the point of assigning a rating? Anyway, cracking show as always and that Hansen v Kawada match is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Having watched all of these matches recently I was excited for this one. I think the Kawada v Misawa match is right in the middle as far as their encounters go. The lack of excess vs. inclusion of more filler than usual (as per the style at this time) was an argument I was having with myself after re-watching this and at least it was well-executed filler. The Baba tag is great for all the reasons you mentioned. I love seeing Baba matches come up because he brings something so completely different to the table than anybody else can. Hansen vs. Baba is still a better matchup than Kawada vs. Baba. I watched a version of the MVC tag that cut off the first 2/3 of the match and clipped to the finish. My thinking was that if every MVC match had been presented that way I'd be much, much happier with them as a team. And that last match is my #1 or 2 desert island match on any given day. The other one it flip-flops with is Tully vs. Magnum. I take that to mean I love a good war more than most other kinds of wrestling matches. I have always had this theory that the Kawada kick right before the Hansen lariat left him a bit loopy and that was also partially responsible for the flying out of the ring. If you're looking for best lariat ever watch the April Kobashi match that is a handheld from a house show. THAT lariat will make you wonder how sane Kobashi ever was. I never questioned the guy's toughness, and I've seen him take a Vader moonsault where Vader missed and landed on his head. Without moving. You'd think that when you saw vader falling and figured out he was gonna land on your head, you'd call an audible. I thought the lariat in the 4/93 match was actually a crazier spot than that for a variety of reasons. The match before it is certainly great and worth your while, but that lariat is something I'll remember over any other spot I've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCrypt Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I certainly wont dismiss that line of thinking, its just different to my own point of view. I feel that of something is going to be a given a grade, then if I feel something is better it should be rated higher, otherwise whats the point of assigning a rating? Anyway, cracking show as always and that Hansen v Kawada match is awesome. Are you saying that there can only be one wrestling match given the full five stars? I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. Sure, certain five star matches can be better than others. But if something is worthy of the rating, it should get it, irrespective of whether there are other five star matches superior to it. Parv's music analogy is spot on. As for the show itself, I've only listened to the first three episodes thus far, so will eventually get to this one in due course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Not at all....just if something is better than something else and we are using a rating system to define the quality of something, then I would have though the thing that was better would have the higher rating. Just want to add, that I dont care about star ratings (and this is probably why), just dont get how something not as good can get the same rating. Anyway, apologies for railroading the thread. Once again, great show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Just listening to this now. Consider me a fan of the podcast, as well as your other shows. Regarding your early discussion of Misawa being new to the role of ace and Kawada being newly elevated, I can give you a much better analogy than the fictional Warrior/Beefcake match. Right around the same time, Bret Hart had been newly elevated to the World Championship, not unlike Misawa. For his first PPV title defence, Hart would face Shawn Michaels, newly elevated to the IC Title. Hart/Michaels doesn't have the tag partners dynamic, but their respective places on the cards aren't that far off of where Misawa and Kawada were slotted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I hate to point it out, but Windham & Flair beat the Midnight Express at that Clash. But I think it's true nonetheless that there's no reason the best tag team can't be a match for the two best singles wrestlers. One nice aspect about All Japan, at least through 1995 is that the Triple Crown and the tag titles were of approximately equal stature, unlike in many other promotions in which the tag belts were clearly subordinate. Sometimes, the tag title match would even be in the main event slot, with the Triple Crown being defended in the semi-main. Likewise, the same guys who were fighting over the Triple Crown were vying for the tag titles. I don't really like the MVC v. Misawa/Kawada match, but I thought it did a good job setting both Williams and Gordy up as potential TC contenders while facilitating a split between Misawa and Kawada. And don't worry about all those matches to come featuring Williams and Ace as a team. They wind up as a shockingly good team, much better than MVC for my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 The real October Giants: Also, on a more productive note for Parv: Dory & Kikuchi vs. Taue & Akiyama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 I hate to point it out, but Windham & Flair beat the Midnight Express at that Clash. But I think it's true nonetheless that there's no reason the best tag team can't be a match for the two best singles wrestlers. Oops. Bad booking, MXE should had went over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 I hate to point it out, but Windham & Flair beat the Midnight Express at that Clash. But I think it's true nonetheless that there's no reason the best tag team can't be a match for the two best singles wrestlers. Oops. Bad booking, MXE should had went over. I can't say I disagree with you. An MX victory would have been cool. I finished the podcast. The discussion of Hansen v. Kawada was great. I re-watched the match myself recently. It really is fantastic, and worthy of the praise you've given it. I see the comparison with Lesnar v. Reigns, but I like this considerably more. This match feels a bit more balanced, and is much better paced. If feels more like a wild brawl than an extended squash. Really, one of my favourite brawls ever. Just a comment about your upcoming matches—you might want to think about watching the Misawa v. Hansen TC match from May 1993. It's probably the best Misawa v. Hansen match, and pretty well regarded. I think it's a fair bit better than the MVC v. Misawa/Kawada match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 Quick note: Steven asked me if I'd seen Cena vs Brock Extreme Rules on this show, and I was like "nah", but Chad reminded me that I've seen and reviewed that match in The Microscope and gave it five stars. Sorry, I blanked. You might have noticed that I do that quite often when Steven asks me questions, ha ha. Also, yes, the Bret / HBK analogy is way better. Also, I don't agree that the best tag team should beat the top two singles stars. I get the rationale, and I get putting over tag team wrestling as a particular specialism. But I don't buy Murdoch and Adonis beating Hogan and Andre. I also don't buy it in the context of All Japan where aces often double as tag specialists anyway. Kawada made his name in a tag team, him and Misawa were tag champs going into this. They are also positioned as #1 and #2 babyface on the roster. No way ... Absolutely no way MVC should be going over as strong as they did in that match. Like I said on the show, Doc and Gordy are two of the most strongly pushed and protected guys ever. And I still can't figure out why exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 Sorry, I should clarify. I don't think the best tag team should always beat a team of the top singles wrestlers, but I do think it good that there be some parity in that situation if the tag division is supposed to be something more than subordinate. And I don't mean to be an apologist for this match. I don't love it by any stretch. I think the result makes sense, and I don't think they went over so strong as to make it an outright squash. But it would have been better if Misawa & Kawada took more of the match. With Tsuruta out of the picture by the end of 1992, Misawa needed to look strong to be credible. In hindsight, this match didn't hurt him, but I don't think this match did him any favours. And I have no clue what the appeal of Doc and Gordy was and why they were so strongly pushed. From here on in, though, Doc will get a lot better. Unfortunately, it's a short peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 10/21/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada Parv: ***3/4 Steven: ****1/2 11/27/92 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba Parv: ****3/4 Steven: ****1/4 01/30/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy Parv: ***1/2 Steven: ***3/4 02/28/93 Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada Parv: ***** Steven: ***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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