fxnj Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama (5/1/98) This pretty much bored me. Long opening mat sequence in a promotion where matwork was never a forte. Seemed the very definition of "laying around in holds" to me. Not only that, but it was blown off in the same manner that people are always complaining about in other styles. Hated the exploder vs. ura nage no sell battle even if the crowd really loved it, and thought the leg lock sequence with the push-ups was out of place in the last five minutes. Hase and Akiyama baring their teeth and grunting at each other isn't my idea of great selling, but if you're into Hase then it's no doubt a different story. In many ways these guys are similar to me -- decent mechanics with high end offence, but not that great at selling or psychology (for want of a better word.) How charismatic they are is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the nuts and bolts of what they do are wanting at times. Completely disagree with this review. You might have picked up on it on the commentary, but I think it's a key part of the match's story to understand that both guys were amateur wrestling greats who went to the same college. Hence, the match is basically worked like two old jocks who want to prove they're the better wrestler, it makes perfect sense that the match would be worked around matwork and one upsmanship. Since matwork was so rare in AJ as you mentioned, that actually makes the match feel pretty special when watched in context and I'd argue what they did was the exact opposite of lying in holds since both guys were constantly struggling for position and looking for submissions. Those opening minutes are what sets the dynamic for the rest of the match, so it's far from meaningless or blown. That figure four spot you ragged on isn't just mindless screaming and grunting but the match's big climax with Hase selling being trapped in excruciating pain while the jock in him can't help but egg Akiyama to do it even harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board. I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least. What's the difference between this thread and JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board. I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least. What's the difference between this thread and JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s? They appear to be totally different beasts as far as I can see: Who posted in: JvK reviews pimped matches from late... Member name Posts ohtani's jacket 18 Matt D 14 Bierschwale 13 Grimmas 13 Loss 12 GOTNW 10 funkdoc 8 WingedEagle 8 jdw 8 goc 8 Luchaundead 7 Jimmy Redman 7 concrete1992 6 Childs 6 Laz 6 benjaminkicks 5 elliott 5 BigBadMick 5 Phil Schneider 4 Johnny Sorrow 4 fxnj 4 si oem 4 El-P 3 Mr. Lacelle 3 Dylan Waco 3 MFoy 3 MoS 3 Ship Canal 3 Timbo Slice 3 soup23 3 ButchReedMark 3 Superstar Sleeze 2 Sean Liska 2 The Russian Daydream 2 Lust Hogan 2 DR Ackermann 2 Sidebottom 2 Microstatistics 2 Goodear 2 InYourCase 2 pantherwagner 2 pol 2 Jingus 2 conker8 2 The Man in Blak 1 Exposer 1 ...TG 1 PeteF3 1 Hobbes 1 Karl 1 Benbeeach 1 cowboy hats 1 KB8 1 shoe 1 Badlittlekitten 1 donsem43 1 Death From Above 1 thebrainfollower 1 Mad Dog 1 PhilTLL 1 supremebve 1 Smack2k 1 andrew79 1 Robert S 1 Tim Evans 1 dawho5 1 joeg 1 El McKell 1 NotJayTabb 1 Ricky Jackson 1 Graham Crackers 1 tim 1 Poneglyph 1 Who posted in: Hiroshi Hase Member name Posts ohtani's jacket 23 GOTNW 2 WingedEagle 2 Childs 2 Loss 2 Robert S 1 Grimmas 1 Microstatistics 1 cad 1 El McKell 1 fxnj 1 Jetlag 1 Jimmy Redman 1 Apart from jdw that once, I don't recall anyone coming in behind me with contrasting reviews in that thread. I'm not complaining, but it does account for me being increasingly tetchy in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama (5/1/98) This pretty much bored me. Long opening mat sequence in a promotion where matwork was never a forte. Seemed the very definition of "laying around in holds" to me. Not only that, but it was blown off in the same manner that people are always complaining about in other styles. Hated the exploder vs. ura nage no sell battle even if the crowd really loved it, and thought the leg lock sequence with the push-ups was out of place in the last five minutes. Hase and Akiyama baring their teeth and grunting at each other isn't my idea of great selling, but if you're into Hase then it's no doubt a different story. In many ways these guys are similar to me -- decent mechanics with high end offence, but not that great at selling or psychology (for want of a better word.) How charismatic they are is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the nuts and bolts of what they do are wanting at times. Completely disagree with this review. You might have picked up on it on the commentary, but I think it's a key part of the match's story to understand that both guys were amateur wrestling greats who went to the same college. Hence, the match is basically worked like two old jocks who want to prove they're the better wrestler, it makes perfect sense that the match would be worked around matwork and one upsmanship. Since matwork was so rare in AJ as you mentioned, that actually makes the match feel pretty special when watched in context and I'd argue what they did was the exact opposite of lying in holds since both guys were constantly struggling for position and looking for submissions. Those opening minutes are what sets the dynamic for the rest of the match, so it's far from meaningless or blown. That figure four spot you ragged on isn't just mindless screaming and grunting but the match's big climax with Hase selling being trapped in excruciating pain while the jock in him can't help but egg Akiyama to do it even harder. Choshu vs. Hase had a similar narrative because Choshu also went to the same university, but even with those senior/junior archetypes in place the bout didn't do much for me. I prefer matwork that is a lot more fluid and has more movement; and considering this was just after the height of Pancrase & MMA inspired RINGS matwork, it was too static for me. I may have liked it more if it had been grittier and if I ever re-watch the bout again I may notice details I missed like them fighting for position. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I keep having to remind myself that Hase was a Greco-Roman amateur and his natural skill set was probably a bit different from most of the freestyle wrestlers. Maybe the "old jocks" thing works in the context of a part-time wrestler working an exhibition bout. Akiyama was still pretty young here, though. All Japan kind of ran old grumpy vet vs. junior into the ground, so I guess jokey alumni was a decent change of pace. I don't think going back to the mat w/ that double leglock spot worked because nobody in All Japan is going to submit from that. When you switch from legwork to throws, you usually leave the legwork behind. If you're going back to it, I think it ought to be the finish otherwise it creates an unnatural rhythm. For what it's worth, I thought the line on Hase's All Japan work was that it was disappointing. I'm kind if surprised that people have been warm to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board. I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least. What's the difference between this thread and JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s? They appear to be totally different beasts as far as I can see: Who posted in: JvK reviews pimped matches from late... Member name Posts ohtani's jacket 18 Matt D 14 Bierschwale 13 Grimmas 13 Loss 12 GOTNW 10 funkdoc 8 WingedEagle 8 jdw 8 goc 8 Luchaundead 7 Jimmy Redman 7 concrete1992 6 Childs 6 Laz 6 benjaminkicks 5 elliott 5 BigBadMick 5 Phil Schneider 4 Johnny Sorrow 4 fxnj 4 si oem 4 El-P 3 Mr. Lacelle 3 Dylan Waco 3 MFoy 3 MoS 3 Ship Canal 3 Timbo Slice 3 soup23 3 ButchReedMark 3 Superstar Sleeze 2 Sean Liska 2 The Russian Daydream 2 Lust Hogan 2 DR Ackermann 2 Sidebottom 2 Microstatistics 2 Goodear 2 InYourCase 2 pantherwagner 2 pol 2 Jingus 2 conker8 2 The Man in Blak 1 Exposer 1 ...TG 1 PeteF3 1 Hobbes 1 Karl 1 Benbeeach 1 cowboy hats 1 KB8 1 shoe 1 Badlittlekitten 1 donsem43 1 Death From Above 1 thebrainfollower 1 Mad Dog 1 PhilTLL 1 supremebve 1 Smack2k 1 andrew79 1 Robert S 1 Tim Evans 1 dawho5 1 joeg 1 El McKell 1 NotJayTabb 1 Ricky Jackson 1 Graham Crackers 1 tim 1 Poneglyph 1 Who posted in: Hiroshi Hase Member name Posts ohtani's jacket 23 GOTNW 2 WingedEagle 2 Childs 2 Loss 2 Robert S 1 Grimmas 1 Microstatistics 1 cad 1 El McKell 1 fxnj 1 Jetlag 1 Jimmy Redman 1 Apart from jdw that once, I don't recall anyone coming in behind me with contrasting reviews in that thread. I'm not complaining, but it does account for me being increasingly tetchy in this one. But in that thread you write contrasting reviews of matches that have generally received a lot of praise. So how can you get tetchy about someone doing the same thing to your reviews? My focus in this thread was always on Hase and clearing up what I think about him as a worker. I'm not going to spend a couple of weeks taking a half hour out of my night just to have a go at another poster. Anyway, I will steer clear of this sort of thing in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board. I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least. He's done that to me too. It's not personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Mojo Risin Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Wow. Great topic. One of the most underrated wrestlers I've ever seen. Wish he would've gotten a run in the U.S., but in a way it makes me feel like I'm in an exclusive club having seen his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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