Ricky Steamboat vs Bret Hart

[Matt D]

I still contend that Bret's finishes are overrated. In isolation almost any of the often cited ones are great. Taken as a whole it irks me that the "excellence of execution" and in many respects the ace, couldn't win with his finish more often. It's a similar issue to the people who talk about how Flair was too giving and came across as a weak champion, but in a way that is less obvious.

I strongly disagree with this still. I think it's much different for a relatively undersized, technical babyface to win with these. To me, as a kid, and even now, it came off as Bret being "technical." He was skilled enough to lock in quick roll ups out of nowhere and what have you. That fit his gimmick very well and made him seem more clever and more dangerous in a wrestling sense, as if he could beat you more ways than someone like Hogan, who was only going to win with the Legdrop. Bret could win with "Wrestling."

[Parties]

My gut reaction on this was Steamboat by far. Both dudes make my ballot, but Steamboat will be higher. Seeing his late 70s/early 80s stuff really elevated him for me.

 

Re: Steamboat's lack of range – I think '78 Steamboat jacked-up Carolinas Babyface is pretty different than '86 Middleweight Technician, '89 World Champion “This is the National Wrestling Alliance, Where We Wrestle Because Wrestling's on the Marquee” Main Event Athlete, who is of course pretty different than the Sage Journeyman Vet who worked with Douglas, the Blondes, Rude, etc. They're all eras in the same character's career, but one strength of Steamboat is that he played his song well (and differently) at a number of different ages. He's not Miles Davis turning heel on Live/Evil: he's a Hank Mobley/Freddie Hubbard type who never left bebop but still played it with a lot of soul. I like archetypes when done right, and I've honestly never thought, "I'd like Steamboat more if he'd done a great heel run."

 

Re: Hypothetical Steamboat face vs. face – I don't know if it would have been any good, but I absolutely could picture Steamboat (esp. 80s Steamboat) fitting into 2004-2010 Ring of Honor. Shaking hands before and after matches, no chicanery, emphasis on “the sport”. I don't really remember if there actually were a ton of face vs. face ROH matches in that time. Seemed like Gabe was always setting up matches where the storyline was in whether or not a guy would take heelish shortcuts. But there sure were a lot of face vs. Austin Aries or some other tweener who can't decide if he wants to respect the bro codes.

 

Re: Bret's finishes – I say this just to ask rather than take anything away from him, but how many of his famous finishes likely came from Patterson or some other agent? From interviews it always seems like Patterson took particular pride/attention in working with Bret on the layouts of those big matches.

[WingedEagle]

Bret's legacy seems just as big, if not more, a beneficiary of the WWE hype machine as Michaels. He led the league in numbers during a dead ball era.

[Matt D]

Re: Bret's finishes – I say this just to ask rather than take anything away from him, but how many of his famous finishes likely came from Patterson or some other agent? From interviews it always seems like Patterson took particular pride/attention in working with Bret on the layouts of those big matches.

 

That's a dangerous slippery slope, especially re: let's say Cena and Arn Anderson.

[Loss]

Who would you rate higher -- Bret Hart or Ricky Steamboat?

[Loss]

 

What would be cool here is a list of like 3-4 prime Steamer house show matches from the mid-80s WWF run. I reckon those don't get talked about nearly enough and that run is often reduced to just Mania 3 with Savage.

 

I saw an awesome bout against Bob Orton Jr from 85, but what else is there? My impression is that most fans (including those here) are more familiar with the Bret oeuvre beyond the greatest hits than with the Steamer hidden gems.

Well their is the Steamboat/Savage match from Toronto in Feb. which I liked better than Mania. He had a great match with Bret in 86. Jake Roberts from Boston. Don't have dates in front of me.

 

 

2/15/87

3/8/86

8/9/86

[Matt D]

Who would you rate higher -- Bret Hart or Ricky Steamboat?

I have them three apart. That may change. Bret is higher.

[Parties]

I'm kind of a broken record on the mid-80s WWF Steamboat matches that I defend, but yes to Savage in Toronto and Bret in Boston. The Boston match w/ Jake is pretty undeniable. The Big Event in Toronto is the one people think sucks that I defend as a great spectacle. And the real guilty pleasure is Steamboat/JYD vs. Muraco/Fuji from the Cap Centre in '85. Match has pretty poor structure - Steamboat and Muraco basically throwing the kitchen sink at each other w/o much storytelling, while Fuji tries to do heel shtick and JYD tries to do as little as possible until it's time to threaten heels w/ his chain. But the crowd is unbelievably hot and do a lot to make what would seem weird on mute into a wild scene.

[Cap]

I am probably higher on Hart than most people around here from what I have seen, but it would be Steamer for me. I started seriously rating matches about 6 months ago and Steamboat has a ton of high rated matches. Even stuff that is sort of good not great (the Regal series, which I liked, but it didn't hold up as well to close scrutiny for me) I tend to come away with a higher opinion of Steamboat because of how fluid he is and how quickly and fluidly he works through any little hiccup in a match.

 

I have a working list that may or may not be ultimately submitted, but Steamboat is a guy flying up it.

[fxnj]

Steamboat is someone whose good stuff I often see as being good in spite of his trademarks (melodramatic selling, cheesy karate kid/family man gimmick, over reliance on chops and arm drags), rather than because of them. I don't buy into the "Bret dogged it on house shows" talking point and think a lot of his best stuff was on house shows, but I'd still be willing to concede Steamboat as having a better catalog of matches due to the array of high end talent he got to work with. I'd definitely rather watch Bret, though, as he was a much better seller, more versatile, had more variety on offense, and could tell more nuanced stories.