Booker Ratings

[goc]

You're ignoring the fact that the Carolinas was also a big money territory that seemingly everyone wanted to work in. The weather was nicer there and the trips weren't that bad.

 

Ok please present me with a scenario in which Verne is realistically going to be able to keep Hogan. You're intelligent enough to not fall for the 'IF HE'D ONLY MADE HIM DA CHAMP!' line of thinking so don't bother with that one. Hogan had already worked for Vince Sr. he had to know there was more money working on top in MSG, Boston Garden, Spectrum, etc than being on top in AWA. Even an offer of being the top guy of regional WWWF was going to lure a guy away from the AWA much less being the face of a national expansion.

 

Hogan was trained in Florida are you going to also ding Eddie Graham for that the way you're holding Flair & Steamboat against Verne?

 

I don't even know why you bring up Backlund, it's not like there was any competition for Backlund. He wasn't a star anywhere before he went to WWWF and even after that big run as a champion it's not like there was some huge demand for him after he left in 84.

[JerryvonKramer]

You're ignoring the fact that the Carolinas was also a big money territory that seemingly everyone wanted to work in. The weather was nicer there and the trips weren't that bad.

 

Ok please present me with a scenario in which Verne is realistically going to be able to keep Hogan. You're intelligent enough to not fall for the 'IF HE'D ONLY MADE HIM DA CHAMP!' line of thinking so don't bother with that one. Hogan had already worked for Vince Sr. he had to know there was more money working on top in MSG, Boston Garden, Spectrum, etc than being on top in AWA. Even an offer of being the top guy of regional WWWF was going to lure a guy away from the AWA much less being the face of a national expansion..

We discussed this at some length on the AWA special a few years back. You're right that making him champ would have made no difference. In a sense it was too late.

 

However, there are lots of things Verne could have done differently, lots and lots of things, which might have put him in a stronger position to negotiate in 1984.

 

He had to be dynamic and aggressive, but he was neither of those things. Imagine a world where a more imaginative Verne had booked Flair vs. Steamer in 1978 and made moves to bring in guys like Piper who would have been simply huge in AWA. Ignore the way things typically worked for a second, just imagine if he'd actually done whatever he needed to do make it happen. I mean he had Heenan. He had Bock. He could bring in practically any worker in the country.

 

He was so risk averse that he was never able to give the top spot to anyone else. And it blinded him to spotting new talent or giving them new opportunities.

 

For a contrast, see Georgia where Jim Barnett wasn't a worker, and look at the stars they created. They had the station, but then Verne had strong TV spots.

 

He could have been more aggressive on the West Coast. He could have made a more formal deal with Don Owen to supply new talent. He could have done so many things. He could have brought in Roy Shires to revamp his TV product (which as umpteen workers have said he never watched). Rather than running Bock vs. Crusher / Bruiser in a cage for the 8 millionth time in Chicago, he could have given those spots to up and comers.

 

I realise it's easy to give Verne a hard ride, but whichever way you look at it, he lacked vision.

[goc]

He could bring in practically any worker in the country.

I'm just not sure how true this really is. There are a lot of stories of guys leaving the AWA because it was just too damn cold. Scott Hall and The Rock N Roll Express being two examples I can immediately think of and that's late in the game when there WASN'T a whole lot of other places to go.

 

When you're a top star and you can go anywhere in the country, is it really worth it to make a little bit more money in the AWA than to be in Florida or just pretty much anywhere where it isn't going to be cold as shit for almost half the year?

[Grimmas]

Muraco never came back due to the weather too.

[JerryvonKramer]

Muraco never came back due to the weather too.

Classic beach bum behaviour!

[goc]

Perhaps we've given Verne a bad rap about booking old guys. Maybe it wasn't really his choice as much as older wrestlers just wanting to work in the AWA because cold keeps things preserved.

[JerryvonKramer]

LA was already up shit creek by the late 70s, I think his realistic chance to challenge Vince would have been to buy out LeBelle and also Shires with a close close working relationship with Don Owen.

 

Relocate HQ to LA, and the very attractive Hawaii trip on the way to Japan plus California sun would eradicate the cold issue.

 

LA was actually the first place Vince got, but it was there for the taking long before 1983.

[goc]

But that's some crazy radical change that you would only do if you had knowledge of the future. Why would Verne suddenly up and relocate to LA BEFORE Vince started a national expansion? The only reason he'd do that is if he had a crystal ball that told him what was coming. His territory was doing good business, it would have seemed like the dumbest thing in the world to leave a territory that's doing well to move to an area of the country where wrestling had already died out.

[El-P]

Bringing in Sid and having him be the most over guy in the company.

 

Sabu = Greatest things ever, the icon of ECW. Crowd ate it up.

 

Then. "Oh, fuck Sabu because he's not showing up !". And the crowd ate it up.

 

Then. Sabu's back, handshake, he's the greatest thing ever. And the crowd ate it up.

 

Heyman could do whatever he wanted. Did we mention 911 yet ?

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Bringing in Sid and having him be the most over guy in the company.

 

Sabu = Greatest things ever, the icon of ECW. Crowd ate it up.

 

Then. "Oh, fuck Sabu because he's not showing up !". And the crowd ate it up.

 

Then. Sabu's back, handshake, he's the greatest thing ever. And the crowd ate it up.

All this is reflected in a very fair rating of 6.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Bringing in Sid and having him be the most over guy in the company.

Sabu = Greatest things ever, the icon of ECW. Crowd ate it up.

 

Then. "Oh, fuck Sabu because he's not showing up !". And the crowd ate it up.

 

Then. Sabu's back, handshake, he's the greatest thing ever. And the crowd ate it up.

All this is reflected in a very fair rating of 6.

 

Heyman is arguably the best in this area of anyone in history. If he is a six, then nobody could be an 8 or higher.

[Grimmas]

But that's some crazy radical change that you would only do if you had knowledge of the future. Why would Verne suddenly up and relocate to LA BEFORE Vince started a national expansion? The only reason he'd do that is if he had a crystal ball that told him what was coming. His territory was doing good business, it would have seemed like the dumbest thing in the world to leave a territory that's doing well to move to an area of the country where wrestling had already died out.

Also LA was kind of dead and when the WWF run there in 88 did it even do really well? How was Verne going to do well there in 84?

[El-P]

This pro-Vince bias is hilarious at this point. Anyone not realizing that Verne made Hogan a star is delusionnal as fuck. Vince made Hulkamania as much as Hulkamania made Vince.

 

And yeah, Riki Choshu in the 90's blows pretty much all these guys out of the water anyway.

[JerryvonKramer]

But that's some crazy radical change that you would only do if you had knowledge of the future. Why would Verne suddenly up and relocate to LA BEFORE Vince started a national expansion? The only reason he'd do that is if he had a crystal ball that told him what was coming. His territory was doing good business, it would have seemed like the dumbest thing in the world to leave a territory that's doing well to move to an area of the country where wrestling had already died out.

Well it's a bit like saying why did the music stores not move to digital sooner than they did? Or how did AOL manage to botch their early position so badly.

 

The winners and losers of history are sometimes decided by being able to ancipate things others couldn't see.

 

Joe Blanchard had national plans as early as 1980; Verne himself had a history of expansion, invasion and breaking away from alliances. If he properly had his wits about him, rather than just maintaining status quo, he could have moved before anyone else or seen what was coming.

 

He didn't, that's why history will always judge Verne in terms of his losses rather than his successes. I've been reading Machiavelli of late, the chap makes a lot of sense. Verne lacked virtu.

[goc]

Yea Joe Blanchard's expansion out of San Antonio was a complete and utter failure. He tried to run opposition to to World Class in Dallas and drew 300 some fans. And no one else other than Ole ever thought about trying to do a national expansion so I'm not quite sure why you seem to be penalizing Verne worse than the rest for that.

[JerryvonKramer]

This pro-Vince bias is hilarious at this point. Anyone not realizing that Verne made Hogan a star is delusionnal as fuck. Vince made Hulkamania as much as Hulkamania made Vince.

Verne didn't make Hogan a star, Hogan made Hogan a star. Gagne just completely lucked out. Hogan was hot after Rocky. Verne even initially wanted to book him heel. Hogan was a huge phenomena pretty much despite Verne, not because of him.

 

You only need to see him in WWF in 1980 (vs Backlund in particular) and Japan in 1981 to see that he was going to be huge no matter what.

 

The idea that it as Verne who "made" him is faintly ridiculous to me. He just happened to be the guy booking him at the time he blew up. Would have happened in Florida, would have happened in WWF, would have happened in GCW, or Crockett.

 

And they each tried to get him too, he'd just already decided he was going to AWA.

 

What planet do you live on?

[JerryvonKramer]

Yea Joe Blanchard's expansion out of San Antonio was a complete and utter failure. He tried to run opposition to to World Class in Dallas and drew 300 some fans. And no one else other than Ole ever thought about trying to do a national expansion so I'm not quite sure why you seem to be penalizing Verne worse than the rest for that.

Well I haven't rated the rest. And fact is, despite all that, Verne's ratings are pretty generous.

[El-P]

I love how Vince gets talent spotting 10 in the 90's while Bischoff gets 0. Hilarious. Yeah, WCW did not bring Eddie, Benoit, Regal, Jericho & Rey Jr. to the major leagues, he didn't find Goldberg at all, he also didn't make a failure at drawing Diesel & Razor Ramon into money machines for a while.

 

Meanwhile, who did Vince "spot" in the 90's ? Duke Droese ? Henry Godwin ? He basically signed bunch of WCW rejects and worked from there, lucking in on Austin while he was cutting his own legendary promo (and not really getting serious about him until Michaels threw a sissy fit). His big project was Mero. Yeah, he did spot The Rock and a bunch of guys who would make the Attitude Era (Venis, D-Lo, Edge, Christian, Hardies & such), in big parts thanks to Jim Ross & Jim Cornette (who also played a major part in why Foley, Austin & Goldust were signed).

[JerryvonKramer]

I love how Vince gets talent spotting 10 in the 90's while Bischoff gets 0. Hilarious. Yeah, WCW did not bring Eddie, Benoit, Regal, Jericho & Rey Jr. to the major leagues, he didn't find Goldberg at all, he also didn't make a failure at drawing Diesel & Razor Ramon into money machines for a while.

Bischoff gave Jericho his start, Vince made him a star.

Same with Eddie

Same with Benoit

Same with Rey

 

Before that he made:

 

Bret

Shawn

 

Even if you don't give him credit for Austin or Rock, which I know you won't.

[El-P]

You don't know shit Parv. You can't even read right. I just did give him credit for The Rock. I also give him credit for pushing Austin, although we should all agree that Vince's vision for Austin sucked dick and it was not until Austin made himself a new image and Bret requested to work with him that he began to see something in him.

 

Bischoff didn't give Jericho his start in the US. Corny did. Then Heyman did.

Same with Eddie. Same with Benoit. Same with Rey.

They all got over big in WCW, which is why they were a big deal already when they jumped in WWF. Did they gained profile there ? Of course. Should we credit Vince for spoting their talent at first ? Ah ah ah.

 

You're just putting stuff in your own little predetermined boxes, as you always do about everything.

[goc]

Even if you don't give him credit for Austin or Rock, which I know you won't.

Well YOU can't give Vince credit for Austin and then deny Verne credit for Hogan because "Verne didn't make Hogan a star, Hogan made Hogan a star. Verne even initially wanted to book him heel. Hogan was a huge phenomena pretty much despite Verne, not because of him." Which applies as much or more to Austin.

[JerryvonKramer]

You weren't the only person to live through the 90s, El-P.

 

Hogan, Savage, and co never vacated those top slots to let Jericho and co be main eventers, which is exactly why they ALL ended up jumping ship.

 

Radicalz, anyone?

 

There's being a star, and then there's being a STAR. Until you are main eventing, you aren't really made.

 

Vince made Jericho a world champ, many times. Same Eddie, same Rey, same Benoit. He also made people like Edge and Foley world champs.

 

Bischoff meanwhile didn't make any of those guys champions and stuck with ... The stars Vince made in the 80s and early 90s for the best part.

 

Eric gets 0 for making new stars all day long. He had the best roster of ALL TIME, all time, no question. He didn't know what to do with it.

[pol]

Couldn't Baba changing the finish to Misawa/Jumbo 1 the night of when he saw how hot the crowd was for Misawa be interpreted as 'letting the crowd dictate to him?' And if it was, does that make one of the smartest business moves he ever made somehow bad?

 

Likewise, does he win points for steadfastly sticking with Misawa as Ace after 1995 when doing so caused business to drop off?

[El-P]

 

Even if you don't give him credit for Austin or Rock, which I know you won't.

Well YOU can't give Vince credit for Austin and then deny Verne credit for Hogan because "Verne didn't make Hogan a star, Hogan made Hogan a star. Verne even initially wanted to book him heel. Hogan was a huge phenomena pretty much despite Verne, not because of him." Which applies as much or more to Austin.

 

Bingo.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Even if you don't give him credit for Austin or Rock, which I know you won't.

Well YOU can't give Vince credit for Austin and then deny Verne credit for Hogan because "Verne didn't make Hogan a star, Hogan made Hogan a star. Verne even initially wanted to book him heel. Hogan was a huge phenomena pretty much despite Verne, not because of him." Which applies as much or more to Austin.

 

Bingo.

 

Well yes, I saw that coming, bozos -- that's why I said it.

 

Verne wouldn't have seen it coming.