Loss Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ugh, tried and it doesn't seem to work. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ugh, tried and it doesn't seem to work. Sorry. I think I found that if you had too many "quotes" and/or quoted text in a single post, that the board doesn't like it. I think that's why I responded to someone's post here ones in 3 different responses - I had too many different quotes. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTQ Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 The F4W board is a piece of shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Interesting thread. If you think Meltzer going on reputations for WWE guys is bad, feel sorry for us long time lucha fans. Until 3 years ago, Dave was still going off his AAA 1993 opinions, so Heavy Metal was one of the best workers in Mexico and the only redeeming thing in AAA, and Universo 2000 was an awful worker you wouldn't even want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Someone mentioned something at one time about how Meltzer positioned El Dandy in his newsletter when he was at his peak. He wasn't a major fan of his, is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 This week, Bryan & Vinny compared Universo & Chucho to Great Khali (while mentioning me by name), saying that they're so hideously bad that they're awesome. Free show if anyone wants to check it out... Also, Meltzer stopped praising Heavy Metal when he was basically ordered to go back to wrestling school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 If you think Meltzer going on reputations for WWE guys is bad, feel sorry for us long time lucha fans. Until 3 years ago, Dave was still going off his AAA 1993 opinions, so Heavy Metal was one of the best workers in Mexico and the only redeeming thing in AAA, and Universo 2000 was an awful worker you wouldn't even want to see. He went a long time without liking Metal. In fact, I don't recall Dave ever saying a good thing about Metal at any of the lucha shows we went to. Metal was a joke by then (the joke usually being Von Erich related), and Dave thought of his as having pissed away his talent. I've zoned out of Dave's lucha coverage for so long that I don't know what's he's written about him over the past few years. I could see Metal flashing some of the "old form" and Dave going bonkers for him. I honestly never quite understood why people were nuts for him as a worker in the first place. Perhaps it was the Casas bloodlines (the old "He's suppose to be good" influence), that Heavy was a bit of a theatrical fast bumping heel that folks in this country tended to like (Flair, Curt, Shawn, etc) and that he had a flashy move or two. Dave wasn't the only one who thought that highly of Heavy. I think a fair chunk of the original lucha fans of the WON thought that as well. I know Sims was very high on him in the LLW, at least initially. I think Kurt Brown like him as well. Those two had a fair amount of influence over Dave when he first started getting into Lucha. Psic would probably be an example of a "luchador" that got over big on Dave without anyone really needing to initially pimp him to Dave (though I suspect Carlos/Konnan did). Psic is the type of 90s heel who worked right in Dave's wheelhouse - bump-o-matic with hot moves working exciting spot-fu. Someone mentioned something at one time about how Meltzer positioned El Dandy in his newsletter when he was at his peak. He wasn't a major fan of his, is that correct? Dave was extremely high on Dandy when he first started getting into lucha. There was a time when he rated him right there with Negro Casas as the best luchador, and I think for a while called him the best. That would be pre-split/AAA when Dave rated him that high. I think at somepoint Dandy started getting written up like Yatsu - former great worker who doesn't seem to have it anymore. After the split, he tended to be very high on AAA (until the talent left for the US and otherwise fragmented up), and pretty down on EMLL as a boring product. I confess that I tended to see it the same way, though we had some different preferences in AAA. I'd have to sift through the WONs to find the stuff on Dandy early in the 90s. It's not always to find the lucha stuff since it tended to be so news based with the opinion buried in it. The 1990 WON probably has a piece on Lucha (I'd guess by Kurt Brown), and the June 1990 trip to Japan to watch lucha (now largely rememebered for watching a certain match on a certain All Japan card) had a lot of lucha coverage. Those might be good starting points. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Also, Meltzer stopped praising Heavy Metal when he was basically ordered to go back to wrestling school. I don't know when Metal was sent back to wrestling school. He was down on Metal at many of the shows we went to when Metal would stand in the corner stoned out of his mind, come on to take a bump or move or two, then go back to stand on the apron lost in his own little world. The contrast of being able to see stoned out Jerry Estrada be a good part of good matches while stoned out Heavy Metal didn't feel like doing anything (and blow half of what he tried) turned even Dave. This was no later than 1994. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTQ Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 He went a long time without liking Metal. In fact, I don't recall Dave ever saying a good thing about Metal at any of the lucha shows we went to. Metal was a joke by then (the joke usually being Von Erich related), and Dave thought of his as having pissed away his talent. I've zoned out of Dave's lucha coverage for so long that I don't know what's he's written about him over the past few years. Dave commented about Metal a few times a couple of months ago, when Metal jumped to AAA/CMLL (I can't remember which one), and I believe he spoke highly of his ability, or at least what he could do for business for where he jumped to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 John, Dave used Metal during years and years and years, I'd say from 98-04, as the example from the only good thing in AAA. I don't think he was a top 10 worker in AAA during any of those years, and imagine what that entails when talking about 1998 or 1999. People went nuts for Metal partly because of the Casas bloodline, but as Canelo Casas he was excellent, and he was like 20. Forget about the bumping style as Heavy Metal; his matwork and pacing was so good for somebody his age. He was really over at Arena Coliseo. He was a natural. Plus later in AAA he had the excellent matches with Santito (and this was before people had figured out Santito will have a great match with anybody who is a decent hand). I have two boxes of faxes of reports sent by Steve to Dave and Kurt, and there's a great quote from 1990, going something like, "With Chris Benoit, Masakatsu Funaki and Canelo Casas as the new young stars, we are assured for at least 10 more years of excellent wrestling". That would be pre-split/AAA when Dave rated him that high. I think at somepoint Dandy started getting written up like Yatsu - former great worker who doesn't seem to have it anymore. That's funny, because Dandy never stopped being awesome during all those years. I always got the impression that Dave was not paying attention to EMLL at all. If you haven't seen it, go to DVDVR's lucha board and look for Rob Bihari's write-ups for Dave Meltzer's news in 1991. Rob bought the whole year and did a recap. Some of Dave's thoughts range from laughable to embarrassing. He had not developed his "lucha eyes" yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I'll check it out. Robert should try to get 1990 as well as that's probably when Dave started doing a lucha section. Boxes of Sims faxes? Where these from Steve or Kurt? If you correspond with Steve, tell him that John Williams says hello. I fondly recall the shows we went to together in Mexico, here in LA, and especially in Japan. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 John, Dave used Metal during years and years and years, I'd say from 98-04, as the example from the only good thing in AAA. I don't think he was a top 10 worker in AAA during any of those years, and imagine what that entails when talking about 1998 or 1999. I don't doubt it. As I said - I gave up reading Dave's lucha comments years ago. People went nuts for Metal partly because of the Casas bloodline, but as Canelo Casas he was excellent, and he was like 20. Forget about the bumping style as Heavy Metal; his matwork and pacing was so good for somebody his age. He was really over at Arena Coliseo. He was a natural. Plus later in AAA he had the excellent matches with Santito (and this was before people had figured out Santito will have a great match with anybody who is a decent hand). I know he was a natural. I don't recall seeing anything of him as Canelo since it was before my time. I sincely *doubt* that Dave got into him because of his matwork - Dave was always a lucha highspots & bumps fan. I have two boxes of faxes of reports sent by Steve to Dave and Kurt, and there's a great quote from 1990, going something like, "With Chris Benoit, Masakatsu Funaki and Canelo Casas as the new young stars, we are assured for at least 10 more years of excellent wrestling". Yow~! That's funny, because Dandy never stopped being awesome during all those years. I always got the impression that Dave was not paying attention to EMLL at all. He didn't care for it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I got the boxes from Kurt. Steve sent them to Dave (for WON) and Kurt (still doing LLW). I think Rob has bought/will buy all years, and will continue with the recaps when he's back home. But he'll skip to 1994 and do 92-93-90-whatever later on. I still talk to Steve from time to time. I'll tell him you said hello. I know he was a natural. I don't recall seeing anything of him as Canelo since it was before my time. I sincely *doubt* that Dave got into him because of his matwork - Dave was always a lucha highspots & bumps fan. Oh, I know. I doubt Dave saw a lot of him as Canelo, either. I was more pointing out why Kurt or Steve or the Viva La Lucha guys or myself, used to think he was so awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I got the boxes from Kurt. Steve sent them to Dave (for WON) and Kurt (still doing LLW). I suspect it's a gold mine. I *think* Steve once sent me an e-mail version of the typed up Word document that he sent Dave with info. This would have been 1996 or later after I got online. I'm trying to remember why he sent it to me as well... there must have been news about someone that he knew interested me a great deal. Possible HOF related or something. Anyway... it was nifty. I tried to not be pushy with Steve and ask him for anything over the years, so that was the one and only one I got. I think Rob has bought/will buy all years, and will continue with the recaps when he's back home. But he'll skip to 1994 and do 92-93-90-whatever later on. Cool. I still talk to Steve from time to time. I'll tell him you said hello. Much obliged. Oh, I know. I doubt Dave saw a lot of him as Canelo, either. I was more pointing out why Kurt or Steve or the Viva La Lucha guys or myself, used to think he was so awesome. Yeah. A lot of early Dave writing on workers was based on what others were telling him. Then AAA came along, and he went wacky for spot-fu. On the other, there were times like Panther-Mariachi where Dave pimped the match. I think the only difference is that it's max out in the ****1/4 or ****1/2 range with something like that, then go ****3/4 for a Rey-Psic spotfu. I think Hoback and Yohe were already starting to head over in the direction of the Panther-Mariachi camp by then, dragging me with them. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Ok, who the Hell is Hoback? Does this person post on a message board and if so, what is this person's name? I've been trying to figure this out for quite a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Ok, who the Hell is Hoback? Does this person post on a message board and if so, what is this person's name? I've been trying to figure this out for quite a while. James Hoback. The longtime third member of our group along with Yohe. He rarely posts - jkc31 over on tOA. I've spent years trying to discourage him from posting since he's far too nice for the typical shit that we all have to put up with online (or also dish out over the years like I have). A bit younger than I am - mid-30s. Old school Carolina and WWF fan in the 80s. As an *early* teen subbed to the WON (I'll have to ask him again how he found out about it), and everyonce in a while will bring over a Meltzer tape to a KOC for us to watch. Dave has been out of the business of doing tapes for so long that it tends to date how James was a hardcore can before Steve and I even found out about the one. Good guy. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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