The breakup of MNM

[Mad Dog]

He was in ECW and knew a few technical moves. That should be all you need to know as far as why Storm was overrated in the late 90s.

[sek69]

 

If you remember, Storm actually made the statement that people who aren't wrestlers are incapable of discussing what makes a good worker, and that even trying is "insulting."

 

He's very wrong on both points, of course.

 

 

That's been taken out of context a lot by smarks who got their feelings hurt. When Lance made those "you can't judge if you haven't worked" comments, he was talking to people like the DVDVR PLAYAZ (not just them, but they're the most visible suspects) who act like they are more qualified to judge wrestling than actual wrestlers because they have a big tape collection or watch a lot of 90s AJPW or whatever bullshit reason they give. That's the attitude that irks a lot of guys in the business, but Lance made the mistake of bitching about it on his website.

 

Secondly, Storm did work in Japan. He worked in WAR, and he also worked against some Japanese talent in ECW. I honestly don't think Lance Storm is all that great of a wrestler. He seems like a fairly nice guy from his site, and I love his taste in books...but go back and watch his most famous matches.

 

I was being half-facetious comparing Storm to Benoit, but Benoit had tons of smark cred just from being trained by the Harts and competing in the J Cup which was probably the first tape most of the people on DVDVR ever got from Japan. He was also in ECW in the short time it was a technical wrestling playground, earning him even more points.

 

 

He had very little ability to tell a story in his matches. He seemed technically sound enough, however he was almost robotic in his execution. Look at Storm, a guy who spoke perfect English, and then look at Kobashi, a guy who doesn't. Kobashi conveys far more emotion in his matches than Storm ever could. Even Misawa, who shows very little emotion in his expression tells a better story than Storm.

 

 

I'd blame the booking for that more than Lance, since he kept getting saddled with "serious" or "boring" gimmicks. That short time in WCW when he was actually getting a push and winning all the secondary titles was the only time he was allowed to show any personality other than that stupid "cabbage patchin' Lance" WWE gimmick.

 

 

If anything, it was Lance Storm who came off looking like a whiner when he went after the DVDVR. It was obvious that he was insulted that Kawada was listed as #1 in the 500...since in his mind, he was just as good as Kawada.

 

 

Yeah, Lance came off as a whiner, and he probably does think he's better than Kawada, but the net thinking he's barely above a jobber because he called some elitist mofos on their bullshit is petty too.

[Marty]

For what it's worth, Wikipedia actually has a page for DVDVR, although it'll likely get deleted soon, and part of it has the Lance Storm stuff, albeit VERY briefly.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_..._V._Lance_Storm

 

The DVDVR V. Lance Storm

 

On May 15th 2001, Professional wrestler Lance Storm (then employed by World Wrestling Entertainment) wrote a scathing criticsm of the DVDVR 500. Storm took issue with Rasmussen and his writers making a list to determine 'who is a better worker?'.

 

Lance Storm - I've said many times that I don't feel you can accurately rate workers and I think lists like this prove my point. With wrestling being such a subjective art it becomes largely a matter of taste. Even considering a list, such as this, to be accurate not to mention feeling yourself qualified to make such a list, without actually working with the people on it, is ludicrous and to be honest I find it quite offensive.

 

Without going into too much detail, Storm is right about wrestling being a subjective art, but it also isn't the only thing that's subjective which people make lists on, and you don't see other celebrities overreacting to lists on Rolling Stone, MAXIM, or other sorts of production material. As to why Storm garnered a reputation for being "great", I think it's due to partly the Calgary Connection, as well as ECW having a false reputation for being the only North American promotion with real good wrestling in it (at least many people thought that way in comparison to the WWF and WCW) and Storm was a part of the top of its heap. Sounds short and simple, I know, but at the same time, if and why Storm is "great" has never been examined heavily anyway.

[Guest DylanWaco]

Nicca please. Until he made that crack about DVDVR, Lance was one of those guys worshipped by the net community. The over-reaction spawned by his comments only proved him right, IMO.

 

The only difference between Lance Storm and Chris Benoit is that Lance didn't gain more smark cred by touring the world before becoming a midcarder in the US.

AHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH

 

I can understand people thinking the DVDVR folk are a bit nutty. I can understand thinking Storm is now underrated because of the jihad some DVDVR folk allegedly have against him. But anyone who says that the only difference between Benoit and Storm is the level of "smark cred" they have is either the most pathetic Lance Storm mark in world history or dramatically overcompensating in the exact same way that the worst DVDVR posters do when they talk about how Kurt Angle is terrible or some other such shit.

 

But by all means, someone make a principled argument for Storm being on Benoit's level.

[sek69]

 

But by all means, someone make a principled argument for Storm being on Benoit's level.

 

 

Well you don't seem to have the most open mind on the subject, but considering Storm's career started 5 years later than Benoit's, I think that Storm's career pretty much paralleled Benoit's during the same phases of his career. The only difference is that Benoit got the breaks in terms of getting pushed in major US promotions. Benoit's only recently started to connect with the audience and was very Lance-like in his emotionlessness for most of his career.

 

Benoit's time in Japan was spent in New Japan mostly and wrestling against some of the best juniors of the era. Storm's time in Japan was spent in WAR in lower profile matches. Benoit's time in US indies before hitting it big was spent in ECW when it was just breaking out. Storm's time in US indies before hitting it big was spent in Smoky Mountain, which no one was really following at the time. If you really don't see how that would give Benoit the edge with smart fans, you're being purposefully obtuse.

 

I'm sure you're going to twist this into me claiming Lance was a better wrestler than Benoit, which I'm not. I'm not even that big a fan of Storm, to be honest. I just see that there but for the grace of God (including having a career shortening injury) goes Benoit. Had things worked out differently, they could have been in each other's boots very easily.

[Guest DylanWaco]

If they were nearly identical wrestlers in terms of mechanics or something of that sort I would agree. The problem is that they aren't. Benoit for instance was always had a bigger moveset, sold better, and worked a far stiffer more believable style.

 

Arguing "what ifs" is something I don't have any problem with, but it can go to far. The other day I got into it with someone on SmarksChoice because they were suggesting that Al Snow was potentially better than Dean Malenko. I was as big a Snow mark as there was back in the day, but Snow seemed to go out of his way to make the least of his talents and oppurtunities even though I admit he wasn't given alot to work with. The same could be said for Lance IMO. You can make excuses based on different career paths and shittier oppurtunities, but guys like Tracy Smothers, 2 Cold Scorpio and Chris Candido didn't have much of that working in their favor either, and I think they were all light years ahead of Lance.

[Tim Cooke]

"The only difference between Lance Storm and Chris Benoit is that Lance didn't gain more smark cred by touring the world before becoming a midcarder in the US."

 

Some of this has already been covered but I am going to repeat anyway.

 

Benoit and Storm are not like apples and oranges, more like apples and cigarette's. Other than both being Canadian, they really have nothing in common.

 

Benoit works a realistic style (stiffer) that can be adapted when his opponent can't/won't/isn't capable of doing it. Benoit has worked top quality matches in the NJ Junior style, early 90's UWA/EMLL style, early 90's European style, WWE heavyweight style. Benoit has more moves in his 2006 "limited" arsenal than Storm has ever had.

 

That's not even getting into the nitty-gritty of what seperates them. Take common opponents- it really sets them apart. Jeff Jarrett, who Storm praised so highly in the May 2001 piece on his web site, never had anything more than a watchable match with Storm. Benoit, during the Russo era, had a a sub 10 minute match with Jarrett on PPV that easily stands with the best of Storm's work. And I wouldn't include that match in the top 100 matches of Benoit's career.

 

I am just not seeing how your original statement makes any sense.

 

Tim

[Guest DylanWaco]

Loss asked in the other thread if Sek thought Benoit was overrated. Oddly enough I think he is overrated by an awful lot of people these days..but I still think he is better than Storm in just about every conceiveable way.

[Coffey]

Why does it matter how many moves a wrestler uses? Look at Hogan and he made millions. Hell, Bret Hart whom is universally loved on-line and notorious for being a great worker only had about ten moves total.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Methinks the casual DVDVR mention on my part was a mistake.

 

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I'll tell you that this week's Observer says that the breakup is due to the fact that Mercury is being sent to rehab. Since Melina and Nitro are so disliked, they're being taken off the road for now as well. The two of them will be on Raw when they come back.

[Guest DylanWaco]

Why does it matter how many moves a wrestler uses? Look at Hogan and he made millions. Hell, Bret Hart whom is universally loved on-line and notorious for being a great worker only had about ten moves total.

Bret Hart only had ten moves?

[Guest teke184]

Why does it matter how many moves a wrestler uses? Look at Hogan and he made millions. Hell, Bret Hart whom is universally loved on-line and notorious for being a great worker only had about ten moves total.

Bret Hart only had ten moves?

That's an exagerration taken off of the "five moves of doom" he used to finish matches.

[sek69]

I thought it was more like five. Six if you count the chest-first turnbuckle bump he worked into almost every match.

[Guest teke184]

Does "figure four leg-lock on the turnbuckle" count towards the "Five Moves Of Doom"?

[JHawk]

He didn't even do the ringpost figure-four until well after the phrase "Five Moves of Doom" was coined.

 

OK, maybe an exaggeration, but the phrase refers to Bret's offense, so...