Who is a better in ring performer? (second topic with Bryan vs Kobashi, Eddie vs Bret, AJ vs Benoit)

[yesdanielbryan]

Hi people, I opened the second poll "Who is a better in ring performer?"

I decided to make comparisons between wrestlers considered the ability as in ring performers, that include workrate, in ring psychology, storytelling, selling, cleaning in the execution of the moves, quality of matches.

You should try to vote not your favourite wrestlers, but you should vote the wrestler that you think is a better in ring performer.

In few words you should try to be as objective as possible.

However if you think that the wrestlers are great in ring performers in the same way, and it's impossible to choose who is better than the other, you should vote the option number 3, please.

Then if you don't know the entire career of a wrestler you should vote the option number 4, please.

For example if you didn't watch every Danielson's main matches in every promotion, not only WWE, you should choose the option 4.

The comparisons are:
1)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Bret Hart

3)AJ Styles vs Chris Benoit

Thank you very much

[yesdanielbryan]

I'm sorry, people, I edited the poll because I forget to click on the option "make the votes public"

[yesdanielbryan]

I will write prior posts.

[yesdanielbryan]

This is peachchaos post:

 

We did a huge project where we spent years watching footage and comparing workers and then voted for the GWE (Greatest Wrestler Ever).

 

Here's how these guys ranked:

 

5) Daniel Bryan (12302 points, 142 ballots, 17.63 avg, high: 1 – Danny Kichler, @jamesie_2015, ShittyLittleBoots, James Derbyshire, Venegas, Dan Rice, Quentin Skinner, Mrzfn & anonymous, 2006: 117)

8) Kenta Kobashi (11898 points, 135 ballots, 16.62 avg, high: 1 – Alan Counihan, Lauren McKell, Marty Sleaze, Winged Eagle, anonymous & anonymous; 2006: 5)

12) Eddie Guerrero (11369 points, 146 ballots, 24.16 avg, high: 1 – Gus_Mcrae, 2006: 6)

17) Bret Hart (10757 points, 138 ballots, 26.14 avg, high: 1 – Andrew Lacelle, NoyJayTabb, Scalret-Left, Beast, BAMbtb, Hasan Mulla, jpchicago23, The Chief & anonymous; 2006: 9)

34) Chris Benoit (6396 points, 93 ballots, 32.88 avg, high: 2 - anarchistxx & Mrzfn, 2006: 3)

39) AJ Styles (5759 points, 109 ballots, 48.20 avg, high: 6 - Hasan Mulla, 2006: 301) >>>>

[yesdanielbryan]

This is eas post:

 

 

Are we going to compare every wrestler ever to each other, three at a time, using these polls now?>>>>

[yesdanielbryan]

This is Richeyedwards post:

 

For Kobashi vs Danielson I went with Kobashi it was very close but I just gave the edge to kobashi, I did go back and forthe between Kobashi and draw but the idea of Danielson being the one to pick never crossed my mind.

Eddie vs Bret is a draw, cant say either way.

AJ vs Beniot, AJ. Now the AJ we have today has certainly not been the same AJ since day one he has most certainly had his ups and down, in many of his biggest matches in TNA he failed particularly with the Angle matches. His NJPW run was really not very good for the first few months, the dontaku and yokohama arena main events were terrible heat-less bores (but then again he was against Okada and that is how I feel about most of his matches) he later had more crap with okada at king of pro wrestling 2015 a match so unremarkable I forgot it happened until I saw it listed when looking up AJ's NJPW run while writing this. It was the g1 run in 2014 that saved his NJPW run and set him on his way to be one of the best in the world for nearly the last 4 years.>>>>

 

[yesdanielbryan]

This is CapitalTTruth post:

 

I like these comparison threads if for no other reason than they are an easy conversation starter during a time where my mind is really drawn to wrestling and is looking for any wrestling, related distraction. I would sort of add three things off the bat though. If these were said in another thread my apologies.

1. Yeah, the GWE archive is really where a lot of this has been hashed out. There are lots of new members and some of us who came in half way through, so it doesn't make these obsolete by any means, but I think we would be remiss not to contextualize these poles/threads within the boards history of ranking and comparing folk.

2. I sort of take issue with the seeming "clear" distinction between favorite and best. To me, the line is very thin. Sure there are some wrestlers that I just like a lot but would never rank that high for me when it comes to "best" workers, but I tend to work and think from what I enjoy and try to understand my own standards for what I think constitutes good wrestling rather than chase some objective measure of quality. Again, I am not saying there is not distinction to be made, but 9 times out of 10 if I am voting for who I think is the "best" I am voting for my favorite. The forced division between the two (even if it is not intentional) is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, so this is more about me than anything really.

3. What do you mean by all their "main matches". I would say that I have seen a larger percentage of Danielson's career than any other wrestler, but there are still some swaths that I haven't seen or its been so much footage ago that I don't have a great recollection. What constitutes "enough" knowledge here? I mean I feel pretty confident in knowing the careers of each person you are asking about, but going off your word-for-word description I am not actually sure my vote should count.

That said, it has never stopped me from talking wrestling before.

I have Kobashi and Danielson at a draw. They are both top 5 all timers for me. Danielson excels in diversity of performance and in his ability to lay out matches to get the most out of his oponnets no matter what. Kobashi is one of the best big time baby faces ever and he is almost a caricature in that regard. My issue with both is probably excess. I think Danielson at his peak probably had some matches that went a little longer than they should have and Koashi was sort of the posterboy for the 90s AJPW excess that bugs some people. Selling wise they are both good in different ways. The real payoff here is that both men have a knack for creating drama in their matches and sucking the audience into their unfolding fate. Both were also able to transfer that to others and get the audience to invest in their opponents.

Eddie > Bret: Maybe this should disqualify me, but I am a little more of a peak guy and to me Eddie is the greatest peak wrestler ever. Hart could make sure that every match felt like a struggle, but Eddie was able to do that and add a swarm of emotions to whatever he was doing. Both men brought a lot of personality to their matches, but Eddie just had more tricks up his sleeve. He could turn everything around on a dime and offensive and defensive arsenals just feel bigger to me.

Styles > Benoit: This one is all about the last few years to me. I complimented Benoit's urgency in the last thread, but that has always actually been a strength of Styles as well. As much as I enjoyed Benoit at the time, I don't think he ever quite achieved the aura that Styles has been able to put together and I mean that as a combination of his work, his story telling, and the legitimacy he brings with every mach now. The dude is just big time and it is a matter of his work being bigger than the sum of its parts. Both are physically gifted and great technical wrestlers. Both are solid sellers. Benoit is probably better with regard to nonverbals and facial expressions. Styles gets the nod in pacing and being able to tell different stories. He also achieved as much or more with less during certain parts of his career I think. Styles gets the nod on being the complete package of a wrestler, someone that feels like they can move up and down the card at will and make everything (not just the action) seem believable.>>>>

[yesdanielbryan]

eas, on 03 Apr 2018 - 6:04 PM, said:

Are we going to compare every wrestler ever to each other, three at a time, using these polls now?

I'd like to use this polls only for balanced comparisons, obiouvsly it's impossible to compare every wrestlers.

[yesdanielbryan]

CapitalTTruth, on 03 Apr 2018 - 6:15 PM, said:

 

3. What do you mean by all their "main matches". I would say that I have seen a larger percentage of Danielson's career than any other wrestler, but there are still some swaths that I haven't seen or its been so much footage ago that I don't have a great recollection. What constitutes "enough" knowledge here? I mean I feel pretty confident in knowing the careers of each person you are asking about, but going off your word-for-word description I am not actually sure my vote should count.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example you have all credential to vote.

While, for example, if you watched only Daniel Bryan in WWE, you wouldn't have the credentials to make a clear judgment.

For "all matches" I didn't mean all matches, but in the case of Bryan a good percentage of pre-WWE matches, and also WWE matches.

An other example is Styles: to judge his entire career, you would not only watch his WWE stint, but his all stints in every promotions.

Same thing for Eddie Guerrero, considering that he wrestled also in AAA, NJPW.

[Mad Dog]

AJ Styles is a generational talent to me. The question we should be asking is how he stacks up to the Flairs, Bockwinkels and Tsurutas of history. I don't say that lightly either. He is the Ric Flair of the 2010s at the worst.

[yesdanielbryan]

Guys, if you gave your vote before I canceled the last topic, can you re-put your choise in the poll, please?

 

 

 

Sorry again for the incident

[Cap]

AJ Styles is a generational talent to me. The question we should be asking is how he stacks up to the Flairs, Bockwinkels and Tsurutas of history. I don't say that lightly either. He is the Ric Flair of the 2010s at the worst.

Curious, do you not feel that way about Danielson?

[Mad Dog]

I do not. I see him as a top level talent but I don't see him as being on the same level as Styles. I see Bryan on that level of a Bret Hart. Good, great and even world class but not generational.

[Cap]

Got it.... I just have them flipped, though Styles is creeping up that level with the run he is on right now.

[Mad Dog]

Styles is that rare guy that lost a step and actually got better. He's spent the last 5 years succeeding in every environment he's been put into. My biggest difference between them is if Styles is in a bad match, I think it speaks to the abilities of his opponent where DB isn't quite to that level in my head.

[Laz]

-Bryan over Kobashi

This isn't a knock on Kobashi as much as it's a total praise of Bryan. Kobashi is my favorite of the Four Pillars due to how easy his work is to "get" compared to the others, his selling and overselling perfect for a more western sensibility, but Bryan is able to convey more emotion from the underdog perspective due to size alone. When playing the ace and taking the lead, Bryan's offense is more varied and enjoyable, each move and hold building off of prior work. Close one for me, but I have no qualms saying Bryan is a top 5 all-timer for me.

 

-Bret over Eddie

Eddie may be one of the best all-around talents we've ever had on a major national stage, but my vote for Bret stems more from how each man excelled in their respective roles. Bret always delivered his best on TV and for big events, no matter the booking or opponent, and he was easily believable as "the Excellence of Execution" with a simple technical style. Eddie, while relishing every second of his "lie, cheat, steal" era, took far longer to find his true voice, with much of his 90s output feeling fresh at the time but seeming fairly pedestrian by what followed. Maybe I'm holding WM13 in too high a regard here, but nothing I've seen of Eddie's has touched that peak.

 

-AJ over Benoit

Benoit had one distinct style and, though it was a revolutionary one during his heyday, the times have not been as kind to it. AJ, on the other hand, has proven capable of working with a wider variety of opposing styles, injecting his own flavor into everything while still offering enough variety to keep it interesting throughout his entire career. 2002 Styles is different than 2005 Styles is different than 2009 Styles is different than 2014 Styles, etc. I'm also admitting bias due to how Benoit's style directly contributed to his final days, so make of it what you will.

[C.S.]

My votes:

 

Danielson/Kenta: I abstained because I've not seen enough/any of Kenta Kobashi's work.

 

Bret Hart/Eddy Guerrero: Bret. This was a tough one, but Bret was ultimately on top longer and was in many more meaningful matches and feuds for me than Eddy.

 

AJ Styles/Chris Benoit: AJ. Benoit was good in the ring but brought nothing else to the table. AJ is just as good in the ring + has charisma and the other intangible qualities that Benoit lacked.

 

Weirdly, there's a similar poll on Wrestling Classics, but I think one of the options there is between Daniel Bryan and KENTA (Hideo Itami). Bryan wins that easily, as Itami has been a colossal bust in NXT/WWE and not only because of injuries. Edit: It was actually Owen Hart and Hideo Itami in that poll. Owen wins by a mile. Most everyone is going to beat Itami in any poll I vote in. Whatever he had in Japan disappeared the minute he stepped foot into NXT. Oddly, Daniel Bryan/Kobashi is in both polls. Same OP for both threads?

[NintendoLogic]

What exactly is the point of all these comparison threads? When you're comparing one elite worker to another, it's pretty much entirely a matter of personal taste.

[yesdanielbryan]

My votes:

 

Danielson/Kenta: I abstained because I've not seen enough/any of Kenta Kobashi's work.

 

Bret Hart/Eddy Guerrero: Bret. This was a tough one, but Bret was ultimately on top longer and was in many more meaningful matches and feuds for me than Eddy.

 

AJ Styles/Chris Benoit: AJ. Benoit was good in the ring but brought nothing else to the table. AJ is just as good in the ring + has charisma and the other intangible qualities that Benoit lacked.

 

Weirdly, there's a similar poll on Wrestling Classics, but I think one of the options there is between Daniel Bryan and KENTA (Hideo Itami). Bryan wins that easily, as Itami has been a colossal bust in NXT/WWE and not only because of injuries. Edit: It was actually Owen Hart and Hideo Itami in that poll. Owen wins by a mile. Most everyone is going to beat Itami in any poll I vote in. Whatever he had in Japan disappeared the minute he stepped foot into NXT. Oddly, Daniel Bryan/Kobashi is in both polls. Same OP for both threads?

Yes, it's me. The comparisons on wrestlingclassics are:

 

1)Mitsuharu Misawa vs Bret Hart

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle

3)Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat

4)Jushin Liger vs Chris Benoit

5)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

6)Curt Hennig vs Chris Jericho

7)Jumbo Tsuruta vs Nick Bockwinkel

8)KENTA/Hideo Itami vs Owen Hart

9)Samoa Joe vs Shinsuke Nakamura

10)Dynamite Kid vs Shawn Michaels

[C.S.]

Yes, it's me. The comparisons on wrestlingclassics are:

My votes there:

 

1) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Bret Hart: Abstain. Have not seen enough/any Misawa.

 

2) Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle: This one is too close to call, to the point where I don't even remember who I voted for an hour after the fact (and the dated WC board won't tell me). You could make a really strong case for both.

 

3) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat: I went with Flair because he had that extra something Steamboat didn't, but it was close.

 

4) Jushin Liger vs Chris Benoit: Liger. He was the talk of wrestling the moment he stepped foot in the United States. Benoit never was.

 

5) Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi: Abstain. See previous post. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably go with Bryan. He was and is a once-in-a-lifetime babyface performer who transcended his perceived limitations and built a main event career out of nothing.

 

6) Curt Hennig vs Chris Jericho: Hennig. Jericho has arguably had a longer, more successful career with many more memorable matches and feuds. Fine, he wins on paper. But Hennig was so smooth and cool. He was...well, perfect.

 

7) Jumbo Tsuruta vs Nick Bockwinkel: Abstain. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably end up going with Bock.

 

8) KENTA/Hideo Itami vs Owen Hart: Owen. See previous post.

 

9) Samoa Joe vs Shinsuke Nakamura: Nakamura. Joe is one of the most overrated guys ever.

 

10) Dynamite Kid vs Shawn Michaels: Abstain. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably end up going with HBK. Dynamite didn't have nearly the career or influence (the latter will be an arguable and debated point, but almost every wrestler cites HBK as an influence - only Benoit and a couple of others have ever said the same about Dynamite).

[yesdanielbryan]

What exactly is the point of all these comparison threads? When you're comparing one elite worker to another, it's pretty much entirely a matter of personal taste.

The point is that I like to know, in your opinion, what are the negative and positive aspects of a wrestler.

[yesdanielbryan]

 

Yes, it's me. The comparisons on wrestlingclassics are:

My votes there:

 

1) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Bret Hart: Abstain. Have not seen enough/any Misawa.

 

2) Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle: This one is too close to call, to the point where I don't even remember who I voted for an hour after the fact (and the dated WC board won't tell me). You could make a really strong case for both.

 

3) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat: I went with Flair because he had that extra something Steamboat didn't, but it was close.

 

4) Jushin Liger vs Chris Benoit: Liger. He was the talk of wrestling the moment he stepped foot in the United States. Benoit never was.

 

5) Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi: Abstain. See previous post. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably go with Bryan. He was and is a once-in-a-lifetime babyface performer who transcended his perceived limitations and built a main event career out of nothing.

 

6) Curt Hennig vs Chris Jericho: Hennig. Jericho has arguably had a longer, more successful career with many more memorable matches and feuds. Fine, he wins on paper. But Hennig was so smooth and cool. He was...well, perfect.

 

7) Jumbo Tsuruta vs Nick Bockwinkel: Abstain. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably end up going with Bock.

 

8) KENTA/Hideo Itami vs Owen Hart: Owen. See previous post.

 

9) Samoa Joe vs Shinsuke Nakamura: Nakamura. Joe is one of the most overrated guys ever.

 

10) Dynamite Kid vs Shawn Michaels: Abstain. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably end up going with HBK. Dynamite didn't have nearly the career or influence (the latter will be an arguable and debated point, but almost every wrestler cites HBK as an influence - only Benoit and a couple of others have ever said the same about Dynamite).

 

Are you a user of wrestlingclassics?

[NintendoLogic]

10) Dynamite Kid vs Shawn Michaels: Abstain. Knowing my preferences though, I'd probably end up going with HBK. Dynamite didn't have nearly the career or influence (the latter will be an arguable and debated point, but almost every wrestler cites HBK as an influence - only Benoit and a couple of others have ever said the same about Dynamite).

 

Funny you should say that. I would argue that virtually every modern wrestler is influenced by Dynamite Kid to a degree considering that he basically invented what we think of as workrate. The thing is, his influence is so pervasive that people don't even think about it in the same way a fish doesn't think about the water that surrounds it.

[C.S.]

Are you a user of wrestlingclassics?

Yep, but I don't post there nearly as much as here.

 

 

Funny you should say that. I would argue that virtually every modern wrestler is influenced by Dynamite Kid to a degree considering that he basically invented what we think of as workrate. The thing is, his influence is so pervasive that people don't even think about it in the same way a fish doesn't think about the water that surrounds it.

That may be true, but it's definitely unconscious. People rarely namedrop Dynamite but they all namedrop Michaels. Granted, I'm sure part of that is being a WWE wrestler wanting to go along with the WWE narrative of Michaels as the "GOAT," but still.

[joeg]

Out of the 3 comparisons, AJ vs Benoit is the closest for me. I had AJ because his high are so much higher and against a wider variety of guys and in a wider variety of settings. However, Benoit brought an intesity to each and every match that AJ doesn't. Also Benoit's matches always felt like an athletic competition, like a fight. Early in Styles career (and even now) his matches can have the feel of watching ballet more than wrestling.