WCW Mythbusters

[Loss]

This thread is specifically for HTQ to go crazy.

 

So, because this interested me in Bischoff's book, tell us about some of the more memorable controversies surrounding the lies on the WCW Hotline.

[Guest The Original HTQ]

So, because this interested me in Bischoff's book, tell us about some of the more memorable controversies surrounding the lies on the WCW Hotline.

 

The one that immediately springs to mind is a tease that Gene Okerlund ran where you had to call the hotline to find out what Davey Boy Smith and Magic Johnson had in common.

[Loss]

Bischoff says in his book that Ric Flair held him up for a new contract right before Halloween Havoc '94 and the retirement match with Hogan, just hours before the show. Has this been confirmed elsewhere?

[Guest The Original HTQ]

I've never heard anything even close to that story.

 

What I have heard about that match is Hogan agreed to do job up until the day of the show and then changed his mind.

[sek69]

 

So, because this interested me in Bischoff's book, tell us about some of the more memorable controversies surrounding the lies on the WCW Hotline.

 

The one that immediately springs to mind is a tease that Gene Okerlund ran where you had to call the hotline to find out what Davey Boy Smith and Magic Johnson had in common.

 

Holy shit, that's horrible. Obviously Davey Boy didn't have AIDS so what was the punchline if you actually called in?

[Guest The Original HTQ]

I think it was they had both undergone the same kind of surgery.

[kjh]

Bischoff says in his book that Ric Flair held him up for a new contract right before Halloween Havoc '94 and the retirement match with Hogan, just hours before the show. Has this been confirmed elsewhere?

The Torch reported a similar story at the time.  From the 10/29/94 Torch newsletter: 

 

"Flair did get a two year contract extension before Havoc.  He is looking forward to concentrating on booking without worrying about his in-ring role.  It almost turned into a holdout situation with Flair since it appeared for a while WCW wasn't moving as quickly as he would have liked on the extension.  For obvious reasons he wanted his extension done before he lost at Havoc for leverage purposes."

[Loss]

I thought the deal with Hogan changing his mind for the day of the show was in relation to the August Clash, not the Havoc match.

 

Is it true that there was an attempt made to sign Curt Hennig and have him interfere on Flair's behalf in the match? Was he supposed to be the masked man originally in the takeoff of the Tonya Harding angle?

[Guest The Original HTQ]

I thought the deal with Hogan changing his mind for the day of the show was in relation to the August Clash, not the Havoc match.

 

Is it true that there was an attempt made to sign Curt Hennig and have him interfere on Flair's behalf in the match? Was he supposed to be the masked man originally in the takeoff of the Tonya Harding angle?

 

Yeah, it was the Clash match. With so many moves done purely for ego, you get Hogan's bullshit mixed up.

 

Curt Hennig was meant to be the masked man who attacked Hogan. When that fell through, Beefcake got the spot.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Could HTQ or someone with access to the Observer please summarize Dave's article on Bischoff and WCW that is in the latest issue.  My subscription just ran out at quite an inopportune time.

[Guest The Original HTQ]

One major point in regard to Eric ripping into the 'dirtsheets' and Eric hating on people for 'leaking' information is that Eric was in regular contact with Dave, and others in the WCW front office would contact Dave, all with the tacit approval of Eric.

 

In addition, no major bookstore in Dave's market carried the book and he ended up having to order it.

[jdw]

Yeah, it was the Havoc match. With so many moves done purely for ego, you get Hogan's bullshit mixed up.

I think Dave is pretty clear this was the Clash match that Hogan was supose to job then changed his mind.  Everyone knew Hogan was winning the retirement match at Havoc the second it was book.  It was known in advance the Ric was going to take time off to "sell" the stips as well.

 

One funny thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned anymore that that Hogan was suppose to face Sting at Starcade that first year, and put him over.  We use to joke about how when it came time, Terry would find a way out of it.  He did - the match ended up not getting booked, and one of his best friends got a free main event pay day.

 

 

John

[Guest The Original HTQ]

I meant to say it was the Clash match, but said Havoc again for some reason.

[jdw]

In addition, no major bookstore in Dave's market carried the book and he ended up having to order it.

 

I get the feeling Dave didn't look hard enough, or that the limited numbers the stores had were sold out.  It was in the Borders across the street from my pad, and that was even before I remembered Eric was doing a book.  There really isn't any reason for the Borders in my city to be carrying it unless it was getting national carry by the chain - it never was a suburb that was strong on wrestling while I was growing up, and I doubt that has changed much checking out the shirt wearing at the peak of the Attitude era.

 

And yeah... Eric going on rants about the dirtsheets, and Dave specifically, was a hoot.  I wish Dave would delve into why he thinks Eric went on the bender.  Dave has generally been more positive on Eric from 2002 to the present than he was when Eric was running WCW.

 

One other interesting insight did come from the pieces is now understanding why Dave was getting lapped by Wade in the coverage of the WCW sale from the fall of 2000 through March 2001.  I knew from Wade that he was dialed into sources that Dave wasn't, and that Dave's sources weren't aware of everything that was going on.  That wasn't Wade tooting his horn, but just something that was getting born out in the coverage of the story.  The story came after the time when Dave and I were talking regularly, so I didn't know who he was talking to on some of the stuff that was at odds with Wade's (and turned out to be "off").  From one of the pieces it's pretty clear it was Eric, though you have to have a memory of the coverage to read-between-the-lines.  Dave talks about Eric being out of the loop, but doesn't draw the line that it was causing him to be off.  Probably the best news coverage of Wade's career, and usually a story of that depth and improtance is one that Dave would take the bull by the horns on.  He didn't.

 

 

John

[jdw]

BTW - it is really screwed up that the thread that inspires me to register and post in one on the WON.  People are going to think I'm obsessing again. 

 

 

John, who actually came over here to see if Loss had any new reviews up...

[Guest The Original HTQ]

 

One funny thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned anymore that that Hogan was suppose to face Sting at Starcade that first year, and put him over.  We use to joke about how when it came time, Terry would find a way out of it.  He did - the match ended up not getting booked, and one of his best friends got a free main event pay day.

 

John

 

I fired off an e-mail to Dave about that, and he says it was always going to be Beefcake against Hogan.

 

And it's good to have John/JDW here.

[Loss]

John, who actually came over here to see if Loss had any new reviews up...

 

Man, I've been so unmotivated to write about wrestling for a long time now, but maybe I'll watch the right thing and it will inspire me. Any suggestions?

[jdw]

I fired off an e-mail to Dave about that, and he says it was always going to be Beefcake against Hogan.

Hogan signed for a three PPV deal - Bash, Havoc and Starcade, along with the August Clash, various house shows, and what not.

 

The deal was to expire at the end of the year.

 

There were various versions of the use of Hogan while the deal was being worked out, including having a tag match at the first PPV with Rude doing the job.  Rude doing the job for Hogan is a funny story unto itself, but I'll skip it here.

 

Anyway, the start of storyline got retooled into Flair vs. Hogan at the Bash.

 

The re-re-tooled version of using Hogan after he won the title is walked through in the 08/01/94 WON ("McMahon Not Guilty" issue).  Hogan vs. Flair at the August Clash, with Dave "expecting" Flair to get the belt back with a clusterfuck finish.  Hogan getting the belt back at Havoc, with him mentioning PR was already out that Flair would retire if he didn't win the title at Havoc.  Then a mention that Sting being the heir apparent for Hogan to pass the torch to (a read-between-the-lines of the final show of the contract - the 12/27/94 Starcade).

 

Then after Fall Brawl where Vader beat Sting for a shot at the World Title at Starcade, Dave makes it even more explicit:

 

"Looks like Hogan vs. Vader at Starcade, which means that Hogan won't be dropping the strap.  Vader insured them he was willing to work a lot lighter with Hogan which was one of the reasons Hogan originally balked at doing the program.  The original plan was for Hogan to drop the strap to Sting at Starcade, but you know how those original plans go."

-Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer Newsletter, September 26, 1994

 

After Havoc and the Beefcake angle:

 

"All plans for Hogan vs. Vader matches were dropped.  Three guesses, first two don't count.  No word on Starcade but figure it'll be Hogan vs. either Butcher or Avalanche or a tag with Sting."

-Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer Newsletter, October 31, 1994

 

As of the next WON, Hogan still hadn't signed an extension for the following year, though Dave points out that he's basically negotiating for control of the company.  Later in the issue he mentions that the Disney-MGM tapings made it clear that Hogan vs. Butchercake would headline Starcade.

 

Dave's current memory is mistaken and not consistent with what he wrote back at the time and what he told me in repeated conversations in 1994.  Hell, we were all joking about it during the week and weekend of When World Collide on how brillant Hogan had been to book WCW into a corner for a monster extension.

 

Feel free to e-mail this to Dave.  I'm sure he'll be happy to have his memory refreshed by "Mil".

 

 

And it's good to have John/JDW here.

I try my best. 

 

 

John

[jdw]

Man, I've been so unmotivated to write about wrestling for a long time now, but maybe I'll watch the right thing and it will inspire me. Any suggestions?

 

I'd get a copy of Frank's WCCW Digests from Barnett (or Will/Goodhelmet who probably has them as well).  Make sure to get the Background disc as well, since I don't think Bob has that one listed.

 

They're not loaded with a ton of "great" matches.  But I think it's a really interesting set to watch and talk about for the booking and the work.  There's a bit of a Nitro-style feel to a lot of it, long before there was Nitro-style.  It's a part of wrestling history that's talked a lot about, but folks don't seem to re-watch much of it in any context.

 

I think Frank either has just passed along or is about to pass along the discs that take it through the end of 1984 and possibly into 1984.  It's not really an overload of discs - he cuts it pretty tight rather than making an monsterous all inclusive set.

 

Other than that... I don't know.    I've got 40 discs some 1986 - 3/89 Crockett/Turner on the was from Punk that looks pretty freaking fun to wade into.  I really need to do something with Dan's 1993 AJPW set rather than randomly picking through it... something like an organizaed walk through it while trying to figure out what of it might make up a good digest set.  Hopefully Will is getting close on his Backlund set... there are a few on there I haven't seen (like the first Bob vs. Patera) and a few I haven't watched in a while (like the first Bob-Hansen in MSG) that I'm really hyped to see.

 

I guess the point - there's a load of stuff out there.  Find some stuff that looks interesting to you. 

 

 

John

[jdw]

 

Bischoff says in his book that Ric Flair held him up for a new contract right before Halloween Havoc '94 and the retirement match with Hogan, just hours before the show. Has this been confirmed elsewhere?

The Torch reported a similar story at the time.  From the 10/29/94 Torch newsletter: 

 

"Flair did get a two year contract extension before Havoc.  He is looking forward to concentrating on booking without worrying about his in-ring role.  It almost turned into a holdout situation with Flair since it appeared for a while WCW wasn't moving as quickly as he would have liked on the extension.  For obvious reasons he wanted his extension done before he lost at Havoc for leverage purposes."

 

In going back through the 1994 WONs to check to see how Dave covered the Hogan Plan, Dave also covered the Havoc Holdup similar to Wade though at more length.  I can quote it at home if anyone cares, but it was favorable to Flair's side of the Holdup.

 

I think in the current unending multi-part Bischoff Article that Dave re-confirmed the holdup.

 

BTW, Hunter - no response on Dave as to what he really meant with "it was always going to be Beefcake against Hogan"?  I'd even forgotten that Vader was Plan #2 behind Sting rather than Brutus, and the re-read helped refresh that in my mind.

 

 

John

[Guest The Original HTQ]

All he said was something to the effect of "it was always going to be Beefcake". I think he might have meant that it was always going to be Beefcake no matter what else was said, ie: Hogan always planned it to be Beefcake and anything else was just talk.

[jdw]

All he said was something to the effect of "it was always going to be Beefcake". I think he might have meant that it was always going to be Beefcake no matter what else was said, ie: Hogan always planned it to be Beefcake and anything else was just talk.

 

Except there was no talk of Beefcake until the angle was run at Havoc, and even then Dave had "No word on Starcade but figure it'll be Hogan vs. either Butcher or Avalanche or a tag with Sting."

 

The Plan For Hogan was a pretty constant topic of discussion not just in the WON in 1994, but is any conversation with Dave.  Even side tangents to it such as Rude's legendary refusal to put over Hogan cleanly (which led to him very shortly deciding that his bad back was so bad that it was time to collect on the LoL insurance claim) would be things that would eat up a big chunk of a phone call.

 

Beefcake for Starcade just wasn't something that came up until after Havoc, either in the WON or in conversations.

 

Perhaps the "looking back at it 10 years later" mindset is that it was Hogan's plan all along, but he just kept it secret.  I'm not really buying that one.

 

Hogan agreed to a program that would allow Vader to win a title shot at Starcade.  Dave's read-between-the-line item on why it was dropped was due to Vader's refusal to do a clean job for Hogan.  The company actually then worked things out by the time of Starcade and shot the angle to re-start the storyline.  Of course Hogan probably thought at the time that he would be able to get Leon to do the job for him, or pressure the company enough to make it happen... no knowing how stuborn Leon was going to be on it.

 

Beefcake was little more than a stop gap because one plan was side stepped and the second wasn't going to go the way Hogan wanted it.

 

 

John