Wrestlers that you have discovered or rediscoverd via 24/7

[Dylan Waco]

Greg Valentine - Was never high on him before, but he comes off as much less methodical and just flat out nasty and stiff at all times now. In some ways he seems like a precurser to Finlay in that he sort of eats bumps the same way, works with a nice tight array of strikes as his base offense though he is comfortable mixing it up on the ground, and is really good at pacing a match around solid exchanges and good transition "restholds". Also even post prime working shitty Ntiro era tv matches he shows flashes sometimes that your rarely saw from the old guys that were just trying to score easy money at that point.

 

Mike Enos - Guy was awesome during the Nitro era as a big dude, with good offense, who played a fun dopey victim of smaller, younger, faster guys. Almost comes across as a "behind the times" tough guy, outside of his era in the land of the fast paced "new generation", not that I think that was the intention.

 

Super Calo - I loved him at the time, but man I like him even more now mainly because the guy is batshit insane. Lots of guys were working crazy dives into their matches by this point, but his were really fucking crazy and in alot of ways he was the "fun" offensive wrestler to watch at the time.

 

Checkmate - The star of the WCCW shows at this point. Is awesome at working the best traits of the Euro style into his game, without incorporating any of the traits that I find hard to relate to. Really "different" for his time, though I wouldn't really call him innovative or even cutting edge. I would like to see some singles stuff from the period, though the style he's working probably came off better in tags.

 

Mr. Fuji - Just a really fun heel charactor that totally revolved around ethnic stereotypes in a way that is hard to really fathom at times. Best part really was that the joke was totally on the WASP marks, as the whole thing really comes off as a "strippers are exploiting stupid men who think these girls really want to fuck them and are dumb enough to pay their rent for showing there juggs for two hours" kinda way. Also Fuji moved arouund really well even years after he should have been a washed up cripple.

 

Ron Bass - Fun charactor, punched hard, looked mean, was awesome.

 

Ron Garvin - Man I never remembered this guy being so versatile. Not that Ronnie was really setting the world on fire as a multi-dimensional guy, but he was comfortable in alot of different settings and always seemed to be involved in matches that were better than they should have been.

 

Jorge Estrada - Simply a good wrestler. Had he come around during the Monday Night Wars its likely he would have been remembered as one of the stars of the B Shows, but instead he's not remembered at all really. Was really good at working his schtick to the strength of other guys and getting over the "state of the art" nature of others, without really going beyond his capabilities

[Bix]

Checkmate - The star of the WCCW shows at this point. Is awesome at working the best traits of the Euro style into his game, without incorporating any of the traits that I find hard to relate to. Really "different" for his time, though I wouldn't really call him innovative or even cutting edge. I would like to see some singles stuff from the period, though the style he's working probably came off better in tags.

I've known for a long time that Tony Charles was awesome, but this WCCW stuff was a revelation. Watching him working with Sonoda to have a pretty great tag against Al Madril and an over the hill Jose Lothario gave me a new respect for him.

 

Mr. Fuji - Just a really fun heel charactor that totally revolved around ethnic stereotypes in a way that is hard to really fathom at times. Best part really was that the joke was totally on the WASP marks, as the whole thing really comes off as a "strippers are exploiting stupid men who think these girls really want to fuck them and are dumb enough to pay their rent for showing there juggs for two hours" kinda way. Also Fuji moved arouund really well even years after he should have been a washed up cripple.

I need to rip and post his Maple Leaf stuff from '82ish, he was a legitimately good heel promo there.

 

Jorge Estrada - Simply a good wrestler. Had he come around during the Monday Night Wars its likely he would have been remembered as one of the stars of the B Shows, but instead he's not remembered at all really. Was really good at working his schtick to the strength of other guys and getting over the "state of the art" nature of others, without really going beyond his capabilities

You mean Jose, right? Jorge was one of the Flying Elvises in TNA.

[Dylan Waco]

Yeah I meant Jose

[Loss]

Good topic. I wish I was able to get 24/7 on DirecTV so I could contribute.

 

I'll just comment that Ron Garvin is a guy whose stock has really gone up in my eyes the past few years. Really unique, and really capable of bringing the best out of people, and often times a side of them you didn't often see. I can't wait until they get to December on 24/7, so everyone can see the long Flair match and be blown away by it. People talk about Valentine/Garvin from MSG in 9/89 as pre-BattlARTS, which I can see, but this match I think is even more in that direction.

[Mad Dog]

Black Bart. I didn't know much about the guy before getting 24/7. Not great or anything but a solid promo and he seems pretty competent in the ring. Actually the World Championship Wrestling shows are my favorite feature on there. I looked forward to seeing that Blanchard/Taylor match more than I have for any wrestling match in a long time.

 

Jeff Jarrett. People have really let the last few years cloud what he really is. Not a flashy guy but a very solid guy in the ring that can have a good match with just about anyone. His match with Chris Benoit at Mayhem in 1999 was really a gem that got lost over the years.

 

It's made me realize how sucky the WWF was inring before Vince raided the territories. Just an awful slow and plodding style and anyone that can sort of move immediately stands out. Pedro Morales is beyond awful. I also don't remember ECW Tv being so cornball but hey whatever.

 

Related to that I've been buying the Mid-South DVDs off of the former Mrs. Watts site and it's really reminded me how great guys like Ted Dibiase and Paul Orndorff were. Especially Dibiase. He really dumbed it down once he got to the WWF. Though I've noticed a lot of guys in the 80s seemed to dumb it down once they got there.

[sek69]

It's funny how people think having guys "toned down WWE style" is a concept that only started in the 90s or later. Show someone a tape of Jim Duggan in Mid-South and jaws tend to hit the floor.

 

As far as ECW TV goes, it's the only thing on 24/7 I haven't been recording. It's not their fault really, most things from the 90s haven't really aged well and the hardcore style is so beyond played out in 2007 it's hard to watch it in the "this is all cutting edge and new" mindset of the time.

 

I've also discovered a newfound respect for the JCP jobbers. Every episode of World Championship Wrestling so far features a jobber getting destroyed and taking ridiculous bumps for mid 80s squash matches. It's been a kick watching Gerald Finley die for our sins every week.

[Mad Dog]

I don't even remember but that guy that landed on his own head to make a Nikita Koloff clothesline look brutal was one of the bumps that stand out. Nikita in general is a real trip. I love how he flexes and kind of just hisses during interviews when he's not talking.

[Strummer]

As far as guys "dumbing it down" once they arrived in the WWF I think it was a combination of WWF policy and lack of motivation. The agents at the time would tell mid card workers not to outshine Hogan and the other main eventers. Plus the WWF has always been about drawing heat and not necessarily having good matches and the slower style allowed the crowd to see and react to every spot.

 

Add to that was that there was absolutely no motivation to have good matches. Steamboat, Dynamite Kid, etc. could be having the greatest matches of their career and it would have meant nil in terms of a push. There was no upward movement, in financial terms and in their place on the card.

 

Also, in terms of jobber matches the WWF used to hire very inexperienced guys to be jobbers. A father of my friend in middle school used to do jobs for the WWF at the TV tapings in Poughkeepsie in the early 80s and had very little, if any formal training. He was a big guy and was just there for his size. That is often why WWF squash matches tended to be beyond awful in the 80s. Sure they had their regular crew of jobbers but a lot of the guys were beyond green. Add to the fact that the NWA had good experienced workers as job guys and it was night and day between the two promotions.

[Bix]

Plus the WWF has always been about drawing heat and not necessarily having good matches

Uh, what?

[Strummer]

Yeah, I should have rephrased that. Slow matches can of course be good matches. But a lot of people equate speed with good wrestling and the company back then was more concerned with drawing heat then having fast paced matches

[Mad Dog]

I don't think slower matches are worse per say. I just think the WWF style per about 1987 was really bad. Very slow and basic and a lot of guys who were really over the hill populating the shows. Match length was also an issue they had. S.D. Jones doing 20 minute matches just doesn't thrill me. Like I said, you get a Barry Windham in there and he really stands out just because he's so much more agile than just about anyone else.

 

I just like the quicker moving, more varied and harder hitting style of JCP, Mid-South and a lot of the other areas.

 

I've also noticed what a complete dick the Undertaker was to Vader and just how out to bury the guy he was.

[sek69]

I know sometimes there's some hidden gems to be found, but Jesus the late 70s-early 80s WWF house show style of giving jobbers 20 minute competitive matches can just be soul crushing at times. It's really hard to get into a match between two guys you know the company doesn't give a shit about, and sometimes it seems like Andy Kaufman style performance art to see how long they will let a match like that go on before the audience starts committing seppuku to end the boredom.

[Loss]

Although it rules when they do it for Lanny Poffo.

[Mad Dog]

True, but then Poffo doesn't completely suck. I'm almost always tempted to turn the shows off if they start out with S.D. Jones taking on some jobber. Those matches always go on forever and they always seem to be slow as hell with them just rolling around on the mat until Jones gets the headbutt in.

[pantherwagner]

True, but then Poffo doesn't completely suck.

Poffo doesn't suck AT ALL.

[Mad Dog]

That wasn't a comment on his skill level per say. It was more a comment that everyone else on his level card wise sucked horribly.

[sek69]

Makes me wonder why they never pushed him in the WWF. I guess they did in the sense where he was a jobber with a defined gimmick (the "Poet Laureate of the WWF" stuff) but he still lost all the time. I know his size was probably the main thing against him but Randy wasn't any bigger and they still pushed him to the moon.

[Loss]

Poffo was too much of a comedy guy to ever really go higher than he did. He was super talented, but I think he reached his potential. I like him right where they kept him, and if you listen to him talk nowadays, he has no delusions about his role in wrestling at all.

 

The Hogan match from SNME will always be a favorite of mine, if only because Poffo's Valley girl selling of the Hulk Up -- covering his mouth and acting as if he's just heard that AC Slater and Jessie Spano were holding hands at The Max -- is pretty much the best thing ever. He was capable of doing so many things in the ring, but he built that match around the most flimsy and feminine offense possible to purposely make Hogan look like that much more of a monster. It was great!

 

Really, it's just a statement on the talent pool getting really shallow in the past 10 years or so. So many of the underneath guys in years past were pretty great in their own right. It doesn't really mean they were destined for bigger things either. I compare a lot of them to actors who manage to make a decent living doing things like local theatre, commercials and PSA's, and are happy making a middle class salary doing something they enjoy doing.

 

I think Bob Cook did an interview recently talking about this sort of thing.

[Mad Dog]

Makes me wonder why they never pushed him in the WWF. I guess they did in the sense where he was a jobber with a defined gimmick (the "Poet Laureate of the WWF" stuff) but he still lost all the time. I know his size was probably the main thing against him but Randy wasn't any bigger and they still pushed him to the moon.

 

Actually if you see them in tags together right after ICW closed Poffo is actually a little bigger than Savage. I think Poffo's issues were he was just too comedy and he was just too small for the WWF.

 

I have to disagree with the talent pool these days. It's there it's just a matter of several issues:

 

1. Booking doesn't protect weaknesses anymore.

2. The WWE being more interested in bodybuilders than actual wrestlers.

3. The wankfest that the coastal indy scenes have turned into. Getting pops and showing how you appreciate wrestling blah blah has become more important than actually having sound matches.

4. Training in general. Cornette talks at length about this. Guys come in with a gimmick in mind before they've even learned a single hold and then shoehorn themselves into that role instead of learning to wrestle and then letting a gimmick develop on it's own.

5. The elitist nature of coastal indy feds and not using more veterans. Again Cornette has said you can learn more in 10 minutes with a veteran than you could in years of training and matches. A lot of the guys out there don't get the chance to get in their with a real veteran and therefore don't get that experience.

6. No one from the 90s put anyone over. Look at Memphis. Lawler won't put anyone over. Austin, Taker and HHH have yet to really put anyone over. Now instead of the top putting over the next generation we have the generation never put over by the 90s generation putting over the next generation. So you aren't building stars anymore.

7. A total lack of focus on promos. This is another coastal indy thing. They'll throw anyone on the mic and not care if they can talk or not. You head down south and you still get good promos and such. Not saying the coastal indy guys suck at promos per say. Just that a majority of them do and don't seem interested in learning.

[Loss]

Indies not using vets is indeed a major issue. Tracy Smothers, Tom Pritchard, Ricky Morton, Bill Dundee, etc should be working ROH.

[Al]

How about something mentioned in PWI a few years ago. Most of the indy talent these days are guys around the 175-200 lb. range. Now you don't want all bodybuilders, but there's a certain credibility line when it comes to size.

 

As far as the talent pool the answer is obvious. Pro wrestling has ceased being about selling house shows and become more about selling television. Twenty years ago you had several regular touring companies and they all required their own roster. MSG, Boston Garden, Maple Leaf Gardens etc. all got live shows once a month. Now big time wrestling comes to your area once or twice a year. Less live shows means less need for wrestlers.

[Mad Dog]

There's also the incestuous nature of the indy scene and that indies tend to use the same 15-20 guys. All the east coast shows have the same core group, same on the west coast, in the south, etc. That makes it really hard for new guys to break in and get a decent paycheck and not give up quickly.

[Loss]

WWE is trying to run three wrestling promotions under their umbrella at this point. I'd say the need for more wrestlers is there, but they don't really develop their own talent quite like they should. There are bigger young guys working indies even now, but the problem is that they seem to have the reverse problem getting bookings on the more prominent indies if they're over six feet tall and 220 lbs.

[Mad Dog]

There's also the fact that the WWE seems to intentionally fuck guys over they put years into with OVW. I mean look at Brent Albright. He was with OVW for several years and then lasted on the main roster for a matter of months and getting his release. Why bother then?

[Loss]

Also, the big increase in house show attendance lately, with most other aspects of business staying the same or going down, is a good opportunity to change things. They don't even make money off of ad sales anymore. You obviously don't want TV ratings to be horrible, but they really don't matter at all. Strangely, most of the online talk is about last week's RAW drawing a such-and-such rating, and very little of it is about WWE drawing x number of fans to whatever arena, which is higher/lower than the last time they were in that market.