German catch

[dawho5]

Dennis Goulet vs. Terry Rudge was a fun match.  I totally get why you prefaced it the way you did.  It was a basic shineless-heat-comeback kind of deal.  Nothing overwrought that you wouldn't have seen on TV in Crockett with a few different holds used and maybe a better part of the match as a shine.  Still good stuff though as Rudge really does some good heel work through most of it.  That one arm hold he was using early is probably not used anymore because ofthe proliferation of high knees.  A good high knee would pretty much neutralize that thing in about half a second.  I think where Rudge really shines is playing King of the Mountain.  That really got the crowd going too, set them up well for the comeback.

[David Mantell]

9 hours ago, dawho5 said:

Dennis Goulet vs. Terry Rudge was a fun match.  I totally get why you prefaced it the way you did.  It was a basic shineless-heat-comeback kind of deal.  Nothing overwrought that you wouldn't have seen on TV in Crockett with a few different holds used and maybe a better part of the match as a shine.  Still good stuff though as Rudge really does some good heel work through most of it.  That one arm hold he was using early is probably not used anymore because ofthe proliferation of high knees.  A good high knee would pretty much neutralize that thing in about half a second.  I think where Rudge really shines is playing King of the Mountain.  That really got the crowd going too, set them up well for the comeback.

 

Rudge is a lot more overt a heel here than he was back home in Britain. On ITV he was a heel too (at least in the 80s) but more a serious wrestler who worked in a few sly tricks in among mostly clean wrestling. Here he has as much heat as someone like Fit Finlay.  Possibly Goulet was a particular crowd favourite in Germany.  

They actually do quite a few chain sequences but slowed down so that they form clear period of heel/blue-eye dominance.

I'm guessing Goulet is French, he does the characteristic flying headscissor as counter to armbar that is a staple of Catch Francais.

Was the No Follow Downs rule in force? I'm sure Germany/Austria had it the same as Britain and France. This referee is very lenient about what constitutes All One Move. British audiences would have EXPLODED with rage over Rudge stomping on a fallen opponent like that. Rocco on ITV 1987-1988 used to have to ration all the flying tricks he learned in Japan as Black Tiger because they would land him a public warning apiece.

[David Mantell]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:32 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

If you've never watched one of these German VHS tapes from the 80s, they're pretty amateur.

VdB tapes are the amateur single hand-held badly lit ones filmed from the ring apron below the bottom rope. CWA/IBV official (not 90s bootleg) footage is quite well oroduced stuff -  multicamera, well lit, looks like a TV station shot it. Shows like New Catch, Reslo and Screensport Satellite Wrestling actually broadcast some of these matches and eventually there was an actual CWA TV show for a brief while in the early 90s.

[David Mantell]

On 8/12/2024 at 10:42 PM, David Mantell said:

Ritchie Brooks vs. Bernie Wright (Hamburg 8/18/89)

Ritchie Brooks had a mane Ricky Morton would have been proud of. This was all right, I suppose, but it was a match wrestled between Ritchie Brooks and Bernie Wright and that's about all it was. The action was better than the final years of wrestling on ITV, but it didn't blow me away.

I can't find this on YouTube. Pity.it sounds good.

Ritchie Brooks (not to be confused with Robbie Brookside whose real name is Robert Brooks) started life as a TBW, having nice clean matches with the likes of Ian McGregor, Nipper Eddie Riley and Kid McCoy whom he was due to face in the Golden Grappler final before bowing out due to injury. He was the third man on Daddy and "Roy" Regal's side in the main event triple tag match of the final show of Joint's exclusive contract at Xmas '86.  He later became somewhat heelish in his feud with Danny Collins, controversially winning the British Heavy Middleweight Championship from him by DQ in 1990 after Danny went berserk after taking a bang to the head falling out the ring in Croydon. Collins got the title back a few months later but the feud raged on. He also formed a smarmy heel tag team The Leeds Boys with Darren Ward. I've just posted a match of them against Dynamite Kid and "Animal Legend Of Doom" (Dave Duran) to the British Wrestling thread. Brooks had a reputation for being stiff in the ring which landed him in hot water one night when he tried it on with Finlay.

Wright had also been a TBW back in 1978 and was maturing into a classic clean wrestler until he came back from a trip to Calgary calling himself Bearcat Wright with a Mr T haircut and a new dirty wrestling skillset. After getting the Big Daddy treatment, he reverted back to his old self Bernie, a hard nosed heavyweight who took on similar, such as Ray Robinson. Obviously by this stage brother Steve was a fixture in both German promotions.

[David Mantell]

Interesting how heavily matured with British wrestlers the German/Austrian scene was.  A trip on the ferry across the North Sea to Germany to make good tournament money was and possibly still is a staple of British wrestler life. It pops up in Robbie Brookside's video diary filmed in 1993, in Simon Garfield's book The Wrestling writing in 1995 and in Bryan Danielson's book YES recalling 2003.

The trope may even have inspired Pat Roach's TV comedy series Auf Wiedersein Pet about a bunch of British bricklayers who go to work in Germany.

[dawho5]

Goulet was announced as from Quebec.  That is not saying he never spent any time in France though.

[Jetlag]

There may have been a bit of wrestling-cultural exchange going on between France and Canada, with Edouard Carpentier spending the rest of his career up there. I remember one commenter saying Carpentier would always name drop French wrestlers while commentating.

[David Mantell]

14 hours ago, dawho5 said:

Goulet was announced as from Quebec.  That is not saying he never spent any time in France though.

Fair catch.  Wikipedia says "Wurzel" (© OSW YouTube) was billed from Nice, France. Possibly I read something kayfabe somewhere.

[PeteF3]

Goulet was always intro'd from Nice in the WWF. Why, I don't know, because 99% of shoot or worked French guys in the Americas were billed from Paris or the generic "France." The only exceptions I can recall were Goulet, Andre, and Jean-Paul Leveque in WCW who for some reason was billed from Saint-Pierre-Église which is not only relatively off the radar but a fucking mouthful to say even for the multilingual Gary Cappetta.

(And there were plenty of lousy opponents that Backlund was saddled with, but Killer Khan was a student of Karl Gotch and could fucking go in an environment that allowed him to. Backlund had high praise for Khan as an opponent in his autobio, particularly how we was able to go up for the German suplex finish. It wasn't Khan, it was the WWF setting.)

[PeteF3]

And if you look at the programs on the Catchfans Facebook page you'll find quite a few oddball countries of origin for the foreign talent in Germany/Austria. Haystacks was usually billed as an American and I swear I remember the US being listed as the home for Pat Roach as well, among others.

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, PeteF3 said:

And if you look at the programs on the Catchfans Facebook page you'll find quite a few oddball countries of origin for the foreign talent in Germany/Austria. Haystacks was usually billed as an American and I swear I remember the US being listed as the home for Pat Roach as well, among others.

Yes I was going to dig out a triple tag where not only Haystacks but King Kong Kirk were billed as Americans. Kirk was from Pontefract in West Yorkshire. I doubt too many Americans know about Pontefract or Pontefract cakes.

(See also Rollerball Rocco, Tommy Mann. the Black Diamonds and Dave Bond being called Americans - and Judo Al Hayes and Rebel Ray Hunter being call Australians - on French TV over the years.)

(Also to be fair.big Stax liked to kid himself he was Irish.)

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, Rebel Ray Hunter was Australian. 

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Well, Rebel Ray Hunter was Australian. 

OK, but Judo Al Hayes wasn't.

[David Mantell]

3 hours ago, David Mantell said:

Yes I was going to dig out a triple tag where not only Haystacks but King Kong Kirk were billed as Americans. Kirk was from Pontefract in West Yorkshire. I doubt too many Americans know about Pontefract or Pontefract cakes.

Here we are. Preceded by a GLORIOUS promo with Haystacks talking about how tough "Us Americans" are. in a broad Manchester accent!!!

Although to be fair, third team-mate Mighty John Quinn once cut an in ring "gee" on ITV about how his "Congressman" told him to beat up Big Daddy. Quinn was a Canadian, Canada has MPs not Congressmen 

[PeteF3]

Possibly dumb but serious question: would the average German be able to pick up on the difference? 

I know I and pretty much every American here couldn't possibly begin to differentiate between a German, a Swiss, and an Austrian accent...but then, there's more American (and British) media getting seen in other countries than other countries' media getting seen in the U.S. and U.K. (And I guess I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I've watched enough lucha and WWC and remembered enough Spanish from high school that I can pretty much tell between a Mexican and Puerto Rican accent.)

[Robert S]

3 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

Possibly dumb but serious question: would the average German be able to pick up on the difference? 

I know I and pretty much every American here couldn't possibly begin to differentiate between a German, a Swiss, and an Austrian accent...but then, there's more American (and British) media getting seen in other countries than other countries' media getting seen in the U.S. and U.K. (And I guess I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I've watched enough lucha and WWC and remembered enough Spanish from high school that I can pretty much tell between a Mexican and Puerto Rican accent.)

Nowadays? Maybe not the average German, but a decent percentage of the younger population would (the people who regularly watch movies, TV or Youtube videos in English). Back in the 80ies? No chance in hell. Before the rise of the internet, most people did not encounter much English in their daily life after high school and if any, than either it was in a written form or by trying to find a common language with another non-native English speaker in some vacation destination (with both sides just speaking a couple of words). I am actually surprised that they did not translate Haystack's promo here.

[David Mantell]

6 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

Possibly dumb but serious question: would the average German be able to pick up on the difference? 

I know I and pretty much every American here couldn't possibly begin to differentiate between a German, a Swiss, and an Austrian accent...but then, there's more American (and British) media getting seen in other countries than other countries' media getting seen in the U.S. and U.K. (And I guess I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I've watched enough lucha and WWC and remembered enough Spanish from high school that I can pretty much tell between a Mexican and Puerto Rican accent.)

I get the distinct impression Haystacks was having quite a laugh with that "Us Americans" thing.   Like Liam Gallagher going "Thass right La, I'm from Alabama me and Our Kid Noel and so's  Our Mam, yeah, honest la.".  I doubt too many Americans know the difference between different regional English accents - I've heard reports of the Manc woman out of Friends/Frasier/whatever being called a Cockney in the American media.

I can tell Spanish and Latin American accents apart (the former is sharp, staccato and cawing, the latter more sing-song and they don't do the lisp.) , I know the growly Parisian speak that is the French equivalent of (actual) Cockney in Britain or Bronx-speak in America. (You'll hear a lot of growly Parisian on the French Catch matches)

[David Mantell]

1993 German TV documentary on the CWA:

 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

It happened all the  time in the UK as well with wrestlers being billed from the West Indies, Africa, Russia, different parts of Asia, and God knows where else. It was wrestling 101 in the 20th century. 

[PeteF3]

Let me break down the perception of British accents from the perspective of an American.

There are 3 British accents, and they are:

"British" - Received Pronunciation. The Queen's English, all that. David Attenborough, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Fry...y'know, sophisticated people.

"Liverpool" - Where everyone talks like the Beatles. 

"Cockney" - Any accent that is not one of the other two. PAC, Rowan Atkinson, Sarah Millican, and Ross Noble? Cockney. The Gallaghers? Cockney. Ozzy Osbourne, Victoria Beckham, William Regal's "out-of-character" voice? The guys in those Guy Ritchie movies who speak without using any consonants? See above. 

That's it. That's the final word on the subject, with exceptions for "Scrooge McDuck" and "Lucky Charms mascot" that apply to England-adjacent countries (note: the UK, Great Britain, and England are all the same thing). Wales, as best we can tell, is a myth, akin to Narnia or Brigadoon, and not subject to further discussion.

[NintendoLogic]

A while back, someone posted a clip here of a Davey Boy Smith promo from I believe 1992 in which he talked about "ma home toon" of London in the most Lancashire accent imaginable. Few WWF fans likely batted an eye.

[David Mantell]

9 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

It happened all the  time in the UK as well with wrestlers being billed from the West Indies, Africa, Russia, different parts of Asia, and God knows where else. It was wrestling 101 in the 20th century. 

There were two Russians in the UK, one was a Canadian, the other was a Frenchman doing the same gimmick he did back home in France and we have footage of him doing it in both territories and Germany too IIRC.

There was a massive wave of immigration into Britain from the Commonwealth in the 1950s so it was perfectly credible that people who had come here from Jamaica, Sierra Leone, Pakistan etc genuinely came from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_generation

4 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

There are 3 British accents, and they are:

"British" - Received Pronunciation. The Queen's English, all that. David Attenborough, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Fry...y'know, sophisticated people.

"Liverpool" - Where everyone talks like the Beatles. 

"Cockney" - Any accent that is not one of the other two. PAC, Rowan Atkinson, Sarah Millican, and Ross Noble? Cockney. The Gallaghers? Cockney. Ozzy Osbourne, Victoria Beckham, William Regal's "out-of-character" voice? The guys in those Guy Ritchie movies who speak without using any consonants? See above. 

This really belongs on the British thread, but anyway:

London and the South East accents:

Received pronunciation was invented by the BBC in the 1920s so that everyone could understand radio broadcasts. Al Hayes as a Babyface in the WWF is the nearest wrestling example (not his AWA/Florida accent which was a caricature.)  Most speakers of it are native of some other accent and put on RP to get ahead in life. (Actual aristocratic accents evolved in the 1200s when the nobility switched from speaking French to speaking Anglo Saxon with a French accent. RP, contrary to popular opinion, is not the same as aristocratic English which was deemed by linguists devising RP to actually contain quite a few impurities.

Cockney is the accent of the traditional East London working class, whose economy was based around the docks on the Thames (which generated at least three side industries, warehousing, street markets and petty crime.) Following a 1930s boom in electrical good manufacturer, newly prosperous Cockneys spread across the Southeast generating at least 3 spinoff accents, Norf Lahndern, Sarf Lahndern (as spoken by Mick McManus) and moden Essex ( Jeannie Clarke especially in her WCW Lady Blossom promos where she laid it on with a trowel) which partly displaced an earlier Essex accent - see East Anglia below.)

Northern accents:

Liverpool - known as Scouse- a relatively modern development from a fusion of Lancashire and Irish accents. Like the East End Liverpool was a big sea port - it still is today. Typical speaker: Robbie Brookside. He actually speaks with a modern rougher version of the accent - the softer Beatles accent is mostly relegated to Birkenhead, south of the Mersey where All Star has its offices. (Example MC Laetitia Dixon on C21st All Star shows.)

Rest of traditional Lancashire - the Manchester accent plus relatives further North in Preston. Blackpool etc.  There are DOZENS of sub dialects of this in Manchester alone. Easier to understand: Davey Boy Smith, Rocco, Giant Haystacks, Johnny Saint, Billy Robinson.  If you want the harder stuff try Dynamite Kid especially in the Benoit docu or the Wigan Snakepit crowd in the 1989 First Tuesday The Wigan Hold docu especially Tommy "Jack Dempsey"Moore. Somewhere in between is Peter Thornley when out of character as Kendo Nagasaki.

Yorkshire - the rest of the central North (Lancashire is cut off by a mountain range called the Pennies).  Further divides into North Yorkshire - Big Daddy, Jim Breaks, Leon Arras "Owz about that then?" Alan Dennison - check out the speech he gives when refusing a TKO over Dynamite Kid in Dynamite's TV debut. Unfortunately the most famous wrestler from South Yorkshire was the deaf and non verbal Alan Kilby from Sheffield which is not a lot of help.

Northeast - the two most famous Tyneside accents are Geordie (Newcastle) and Sunderland (Mackem). Can't think of any wrestlers from that part of the world who ever spoke on camera.

Midlands accents:

West Midlands - where I live: Three main accents: Black Country (Dudley, Wolverhampton, Walsall) Brummie (Birmingham City Centre) Coventry/Warwickshire.  Chris Adams had a definite hint of the third accent although he was from Stratford on Avon. Sadly Banger Walsh never did much talking on camera. The first one, if you're familiar with the rock band Slade, it's that accent.

East Midlands - various accents, about the most memorable one in wrestling was Ken Joyce's Northampton accent. Check out after his 1981 2-0 loss to Johnny Saint - "Johnny Saint beat me FEAR and SQUEER, I thoroughly ENJUYED it and now I UNDERSTUND why you are the world champion" (My emphasis)

Other accents:

East Anglia- the bulgy bit on the right hand side of the country. Three main accents Norfolk, Suffolk and Old Essex. Norfolk is easy, the Knight family and practically everyone in WAW. Check out "Fighting With My Family" or some WAW YouTube clips. Can't think of any good wrestling examples of the latter two - Old Essex survives in the country villages but in the London commuter belt and the North side of the Thames Estuary (Southend) it's been mostly replaced by modern Essex. (As a child in 1980s Chigwell I remember some old people doing the old accent.)

West Country (South west) accents - seen as the traditional Country Yokel accent in the UK. the most famous variant is Somerset known outside the UK as the Pirate Accent (because an actor with that accent played Long John Silver in the movie of Treasure Island even though of course pirates come from all over the place.) Danny Collins had a related Bristol City accent, check out some non promo TV interviews he did such as for BBC Breakfast Time in the mid 80s.

Hampshire, a county halfway between the West Country (SW) and the Home Counties (London, SE). has its own particular accent. Check out the British version of Skull Murphy, Peter Northey, who came from Portsmouth. His dad Charles who wrestled as Roy Bull Davies, also has that accent in the 1967 Granada TV documentary The Wrestlers.

Wales (when they're speaking English). Orig Williams is the closest I can think of to the  cliched  "well there's lovely then, boyo" accent but for a different accent check out Adrian Street's south Wales accent on his pop records and his promos in America in the 80s.

[David Mantell]

Have copied all the above over to the British thread.

[David Mantell]

25 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

the other was a Frenchman doing the same gimmick he did back home in France and we have footage of him doing it in both territories and Germany too IIRC.

Yup I was right - here is Le Grand Vladimir in Germany in the VdB in 1983:

That ring with the yellow ropes and vertical cords reminds me of the ring in one of the two 1970s Roland Bock clips we have.

 

[David Mantell]

Three Otto The Austrian National versus Evil Guest Americans matches, two of which feature guys that went on to bigger things.

Otto has some strange outfits in the first two bouts that Big Daddy night have worn as a heel in 1975-1976. The first is a magenta/cyan/black striped outfit that brings back memories of the planet Thoros Beta from 1986 Doctor Who story The Trial Of A Time Lord pts 5-8: Mindwarp. Otto's outfit in the Black Bartmatch can only be compared to an explosion in a factory making blackcurrant cheesecake.

Yokozuna's life would end on tour with an old school European Promotion (All Star in 2000) so it made sense that he would have visited another one earlier in his travels. At this point he was best known in America for helping hold down Missy Hyatt in Continental with tag partner uncle Sika while manager and former jobber Alan Martin kissed her forcibly, turning her babyface after husband Eddie Gilbert (another future CWA alumnus) refused to intevene. I wish he could have come to Britain earlier. He would have a great opponent for Big Daddy or tag partner for Kendo Nagasaki.

Orig Williams pops up as heel manager of Black Bart match and looks very solemn and emotional as the trumpeter played the Stars and Stripes. This was quite a blood soaked encounter with Bart covered in claret.

Steel Man the future Tugboat /Typhoon/Shockmaster has a WWF World tag belt and glittery stormtrooper helmet in his future.   He was much better as a heel and would  have been a good challenger for Warrior.