WON HOF 2024

[NintendoLogic]

HOF issue is out. This year's class is Roman Reigns, Shingo Takagi, Paul Orndorff, Johnny Rougeau, the Young Bucks, Los Hermanos Dinamita, Johnny Saint, Bobby Davis, and...Cima? What the fuck?

[Robert S]

Isn't Shingo even a worse pick than CIMA?

[Phil Lions]

Gilbert Leduc being on the ballot next year really caught me off guard. Talk about an unexpected, yet very pleasant, surprise. I don't know what or who made Dave finally decide to put him on, but make no mistake about it without the Segunda Caida guys uploading all the catch footage, Leduc wouldn't even be in the conversation so kudos for that. He's going to be a tough sell though. He's not a Tarres where you can point to him drawing big crowds and people can easily see why he's on the ballot. Leduc's case is harder to make. I feel like a lot of pushing would need to be done for him to even get enough votes to stay on the ballot. I hope I'm wrong, but it feels that way. And thinking about it, I may try to put something together in the future to help strengthen his case.

Pleasantly surprised about Brazil's Ted Boy Marino too.

[ethantyler]

1 hour ago, Phil Lions said:

Gilbert Leduc being on the ballot next year really caught me off guard. Talk about an unexpected, yet very pleasant, surprise. I don't know what or who made Dave finally decide to put him on, but make no mistake about it without the Segunda Caida guys uploading all the catch footage, Leduc wouldn't even be in the conversation so kudos for that. He's going to be a tough sell though. He's not a Tarres where you can point to him drawing big crowds and people can easily see why he's on the ballot. Leduc's case is harder to make. I feel like a lot of pushing would need to be done for him to even get enough votes to stay on the ballot. I hope I'm wrong, but it feels that way. And thinking about it, I may try to put something together in the future to help strengthen his case.

Pleasantly surprised about Brazil's Ted Boy Marino too.

Cough. You're welcome. Kidding aside, I doubt I was the only one but I did push hard for Leduc, Marino, Kellett, and Grey to be added to the ballot because we need more votes in that section. That means more candidates. All, at a minimum, have ballot worthy cases. 

[Phil Lions]

34 minutes ago, ethantyler said:

Cough. You're welcome. Kidding aside, I doubt I was the only one but I did push hard for Leduc, Marino, Kellett, and Grey to be added to the ballot because we need more votes in that section. That means more candidates. All, at a minimum, have ballot worthy cases. 

Had a feeling you had something to do with it, but didn't want to call you out. Thanks!

Kellet and Grey I don't know too much about as the TV era of the UK isn't really my area of expertise, but I'm looking forward to eventually digging in more on them. It's good to have some new faces in the mix for that section of the ballot.

[C.S.]

No CM Punk, but some of those others? Oof! 

[DylanZero]

2 hours ago, ethantyler said:

Cough. You're welcome. Kidding aside, I doubt I was the only one but I did push hard for Leduc, Marino, Kellett, and Grey to be added to the ballot because we need more votes in that section. That means more candidates. All, at a minimum, have ballot worthy cases. 

Excellent call on Grey. In my opinion the best of the UK's workers and should have the reputation Saint has. I messaged Dave about him a few years ago myself when Ohtani's Jacket was going on with Grey and highly influential in showing me/us on here his greatness but didn't push it very hard. I'm delighted to see his name in the mix. Certainly the other 3 are gonna be people I'll love seeing, already familiar with Kellett and Leduc's work but Marino is a great choice just because in my opinion South America is woefully underrepresented as a whole and hopefully this can open the door to a super underreported on side of wrestling history and I think it's a good start. I don't know if anything more comes from it but just getting people like that on the ballot is a huge win for historians and wrestling history as a whole.

[DylanZero]

I worry about the Japanese section in general going forward. It just feels like this strange "we MUST vote for someone as the next one up" mentality that's going in, hence CIMA & Shingo getting these big jumps and Toyota/Yamada getting a big jump as well. What did Shingo & CIMA do to raise their stock over last year? Or was it just "Shingo's turn" now that Ishii went in last year? CIMA could rightfully argue means nothing just a few years after the end of his DG run. Was significant research done into Toyota/Yamada's run before their brief but admittedly great peak after last year? If it was I didn't see that. Zack lasted on the ballot another year. TenCozy got more votes than last. Are these guys gonna linger on forever just because there's nobody else?

 

And somehow Hayabusa will never get in despite being number 1 among active wrestlers decades after his last match.

[fxnj]

1 hour ago, DylanZero said:

I worry about the Japanese section in general going forward. It just feels like this strange "we MUST vote for someone as the next one up" mentality that's going in, hence CIMA & Shingo getting these big jumps and Toyota/Yamada getting a big jump as well. What did Shingo & CIMA do to raise their stock over last year? Or was it just "Shingo's turn" now that Ishii went in last year? CIMA could rightfully argue means nothing just a few years after the end of his DG run. Was significant research done into Toyota/Yamada's run before their brief but admittedly great peak after last year? If it was I didn't see that. Zack lasted on the ballot another year. TenCozy got more votes than last. Are these guys gonna linger on forever just because there's nobody else?

 

And somehow Hayabusa will never get in despite being number 1 among active wrestlers decades after his last match.

Weird to see those guys getting votes when Fujiwara, Satomura, Takayama, and Hayabusa strike me clearly as the strongest candidates in the section. Drives home the feeling of not being on the same page as the voters.

[ethantyler]

I voted for Shingo. HOF-level worker for well over a decade in my view, with every objective advantage possible over Ishii. Cima feels a little weak, but not enough for me to outright object to it. 

I have Japan as the weakest section on the ballot and agree that the "next candidate up" mentality could become a major concern. I appreciate many of the cases, but it's the only section on the entire ballot with no candidates that I'm clamoring to induct. Hayabusa is next line so for those who support him, I think it's a safe bet for next year. 

[Robert S]

Some details (all numbers are subject to Dave-maths):

• All new inductees were between 60.2% and 66.7%
• CIMA, Johnny Saint and Bobby Davis were just one vote above the threshold
• Roman Reigns (#8 among reporters, #5 among historians, #6 among active wrestlers, #3 among retired wrestlers)
• Shingo Takagi (#7 among reporters, #11 among historians, #18 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers)
• Paul Orndorff (#9 among reporters, #7 among historians, #14 among active wrestlers, #19 among retired wrestlers)
• Johnny Rougeau (#14 among reporters, #4 among historians, #3 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers)
• Young Bucks (#2 among reporters, #14 among historians, #14 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers)
• Hermanos Dinamita (#14 among reporters, #1 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #13 among retired wrestlers)
• CIMA (#17 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historians, #5 among active wrestlers, #5 among retired wrestlers)
• Johnny Saint (#1 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historians, #2 among active wrestlers, #7 among retired wrestlers)
• Bobby Davis (#11 among reporters, #8 among historians, #11 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers)
• Slightly below the 60% were:
  • Bobby Bruns (56.4%)
  • JYD (53.8%)
  • Hayabusa (53.2%)
  • Dorrell Dixon (53.2%)
  • Ted Turner (52.5%)
  • CM Punk (52.1%)
  • June Byers (50.4%)
• Dropped from next year are: Asuka, Kevin Owens, Usos, Sid, Bray Wyatt, Sami Zayn, Kento Miyahara, Psycho Clown and Huracan Ramirez (the last one because of the "15 years/50% rule", the rest was below 10%)
• New candidates for next year: Masaaki Mochizuki, Bill Dundee, Gorilla Monsoon, Jesse Ventura, Io Shirai, Gilbert DeLuc, Drew McIntyre, Steve Gray, Ted Marino, Les Kellett, Los Infernales, FTR, Mercedes Moné
• Other top 10 rankings in the different categories and what they did elsewhere:
  • Larry Matysik did not rank top 30 among reporters, #30 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #1 among retired wrestlers
  • Hayabusa #25 among reporters, #25 among historians, #1 among active wrestlers, #21 among retired wrestlers
  • Bobby Bruns #26 among reporters, #2 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #10 among retired wrestlers
  • Randy Orton did not rank top 30 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #2 among retired wrestlers
  • Adrian Street #3 among reporters, did not rank among historians, #12 among active wrestlers, #9 among retired wrestlers
  • José Tarres #27 among reporters, #3 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • JYD #4 among reporters, #27 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Otto Wanz did not rank top 30 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historials, #4 among active wrestlers, #30 among retired wrestlers
  • Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada did not rank top 30 among reporters, #16 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #4 among retired wrestlers
  • Cody Rhodes #5 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #19 among retired wrestlers
  • CM Punk #6 among reporters, #29 among historians, #22 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Dorrell Dixon #18 among reporters, #6 among historians, #19 active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Von Erichs #20 among reporters, #18 among historians, #7 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Billy Joyce did not rank top 30 among reporters, #21 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, #7 among retired wrestlers
  • El Hijo del Santo & Octagon did not rank top 30 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historials, #8 among active wrestlers
  • Spyros Arion did not rank top 30 among reporters, #9 among historians, #27 among active wrestlers, #22 among retired wrestlers
  • Tony Schiavone did not rank top 30 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historials, #9 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Briscoes did not rank top 30 among reporters, did not rank top 30 among historials, #10 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • George Gordienko did not rank top 30 among reporters, #10 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers
  • Ted Turner #10 among reporters, #17 among historians, did not rank top 30 among active wrestlers, did not rank top 30 among retired wrestlers

[Robert S]

7 hours ago, fxnj said:

Weird to see those guys getting votes when Fujiwara, Satomura, Takayama, and Hayabusa strike me clearly as the strongest candidates in the section. Drives home the feeling of not being on the same page as the voters.

Results of the Japanese section:

• Shingo Takagi 185 votes (65.6%)
• CIMA 170 votes (60.3%)
• Hayabusa 150 votes (53.2%)
• Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada 120 votes (42.6%)
• Koichi Yoshizawa 104 votes (36.9%)
• Yoshiaki Fujiwara 92 votes (32.6%)
• Yoshihiro Takayama 85 votes (30.1%)
• Tiger Jeet Singh 76 votes (28.1%)
• Meiko Satomura 62 votes (22.0%)
• Joe Higuchi 61 votes (21.6%)
• Rossy Ogawa 60 votes (21.3%)
• Inoki & Sakaguchi 52 votes (18.4%)
• Kojima & Tenzan 48 votes (17.0%)
• Zack Sabre Jr. 46 votes (16.3%)
• Kento Miyahara did not reach 10%, Asuka (who also did not reach 10%) was part of the US & Canada section, Gran Hamada (42.5%) was part of the Mexican section

[Robert S]

Biggest winners:

• CIMA +37%
• Hayabusa +30%
• Shingo Takagi +24%
• Dorrell Dixon +20%
• Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada +20%
• June Byers +17%
• Morris Sigel +17%
• Spyros Arion +17%
• Johnny Rougeau +16%
• Johnny Saint +16%
• Roman Reigns +15%

Biggest losers:

• Jim Johnston -10%
• Dominic DeNucci -4%
• Reggie Parks -4%
• Hart Foundation -3%
• Bob Caudle -3%

[DylanZero]

6 hours ago, ethantyler said:

I voted for Shingo. HOF-level worker for well over a decade in my view, with every objective advantage possible over Ishii. Cima feels a little weak, but not enough for me to outright object to it. 

I have Japan as the weakest section on the ballot and agree that the "next candidate up" mentality could become a major concern. I appreciate many of the cases, but it's the only section on the entire ballot with no candidates that I'm clamoring to induct. Hayabusa is next line so for those who support him, I think it's a safe bet for next year. 

I just want to reiterate that I personally don't have an issue with these people in and of themselves going in and certainly respect your vote for them (besides Shingo being active and having more of his career left to tell but I know it's obviously not something everyone subscribes to). I will say Shingo's Verserk run is one of my personal favorite heel runs in Japanese wrestling history and certainly in modern times. CIMA had plenty of matches I think are truly great and I respect his political game. I'm a fan of all these people in some way or another. But my problem is: Why the jumps? Shingo did nothing this year that was particularly important or memorable. I would describe his year as good, not great and certainly not anything to boost his HOF candidacy on. I watch GLEAT. I know for a fact how little CIMA has meant and he hasn't even been good unlike Shingo. We know his contributions as a talent scout and have for years. I'm not questioning that. But what is the change that got people to rally behind him so much? Again I'm not trying to question the voter base over particular guys, and if you are a Shingo/CIMA voter every year and think they're a slam dunk that's fine. My issue is 37% boosting CIMA into the Hall if you've had a vote for years and just now come around on him/them? Why? Nobody rallied for him, most people think he's a worse candidate now than 2-3 years ago.

 

And seeing the numbers laid out like Robert gracefully has shows the concern we're talking about up and down with the Japan Region in just how far this is gonna go in years to come. Even with Hayabusa who I would put in above CIMA, he too had a huge jump. Who's to say ZSJ won't jump up 40% next year simply by being the last modern NJPW guy on the ballot? It just leaves me with many more questions than answers on this whole thing. I'm not sure what exactly can be done about it mind you but hopefully it's something we all/Dave can keep an eye on going forward because it feels like the tea leaves are turning in some not great directions.

[InYourCase]

It's amazing to me that this website that prides itself on being such a beacon of history refuses to do any research on CIMA or Shingo. Two completely valid candidates stronger than anyone else in the field, especially Satomura or Fujiwara, who I see listed above. 

[squidlad]

A great class this year. One that clears up a huge bottleneck, broadens the scope of viable candidates and inducts a number of deserving people. Next year's HOF is going to be a lot more fun to talk about without the same old debates getting dredged up. A complete win all around. Cima and Shingo getting in is good as lucharesu has been under represented in the HOF. It's an influential style that can still be observed today at a high level. In my opinion there should have been at least one more person responsible for its proliferation in the hall, apart from just Ultimo.

[DylanZero]

In terms of Lucharesu I'm hopeful Great Sasuke gets nominated at some point to look into more. Also it will be interesting the reaction to Mochizuki being on next year. 

[InYourCase]

4 hours ago, DylanZero said:

In terms of Lucharesu I'm hopeful Great Sasuke gets nominated at some point to look into more. Also it will be interesting the reaction to Mochizuki being on next year. 

I asked for Sasuke to get put on. Sadly it did not work out. 

Mocchy getting on makes me happy and sad at the same time. I will vote for him as long as he's on the ballot. I had him at #10 in 2016 GWE and #6 in 2021 GWE. He's one of my 5 favorite wrestlers of all-time. He's a better candidate than Ishii, but the uphill battle that was getting CIMA in means that Mochizuki has no chance. He'll fall off next year, I can't imagine him getting 10%. 

[DylanZero]

So thoughts per section after looking at the numbers.

 

Historical:

 

Rougeau should have been in years ago, finally he is and out of everyone involved he's the feel good story of all the regions outside of perhaps Davis. It was an incomplete HoF without him. Also of note are encouraging gains for both JYD & Byers who should for sure be in and perhaps will in the near future. I thought the Von Erichs had a shot to get in coming off the movie but it didn't even get over 50. I'd probably be worried if I were a huge supporter of theirs. Cowboy Bob's rise was unexpected. If someone voted him over Curry or Firpo I'd love the explanation.

 

Modern:

I think like with all things Dave the takes on him are always "His influence means almost nothing" or "He can change the Hall on his own in one fell swoop!" when the reality is his word DOES matter but not the be all end all. You can't convince me his passionate advocating for Reigns last week wasn't a cherry on top. Orndorff getting in is a wrong righted I would argue. I was shocked Zayn didn't get at least 10%, the others I am not. Joe got a surprising amount of love, perhaps Case's article got some extra juice behind him.

 

Although I wouldn't have argued hard against Punk, I think if nothing else we have to admit this was the funniest outcome.

 

Japan:

I said my piece already. I don't mind the people getting in but the section worries me.

 

Mexico:

Hermanos Dinamita getting in was a good call, kind of a bummer Ramirez is going off but he's hung around for awhile in a tough region. I look at this as a win for Sangre Chicana and El Dandy to see these two heavy hitters cleared out although Los Infernales won't make it easier.

 

ROW:

We're gonna see how much those Saint voters are really worth, because how in the world can you vote for Saint and not Grey? In fact, how can you vote for him and not the Royal Brothers, one of the best tag teams of over a decade, and Vic Faulkner himself may be considered one of the best of his era. How is Tarres not in period? Street over Gordienko? Show me the evidence for these things!

 

Non-wrestler:

 

I think with Davis in this should open the door for Bruns next year. I personally find the numbers for Sigel & Welch disappointing and with so much modern influence and different people that it's showing how hard it is for promoters to get in right now. I didn't get as down about Owen getting in as others did in the past, but if he's in how in the world can you argue against them? It shows a lack of consistency, much like Street getting so much love when you look at the totals. Puzzling.

 

All things considered it was a good class. I see some arguments against the DG guys but overall I lean more towards the Hall needing more of that style of guys besides just Ultimo. I think Saint could be a legit gripe but despite my objections to it, his being the hyped WoS guy is yet another sin Quackenbush inflicted upon the wrestling world but the fact is he is the one that WAS directly influential to that era of workers and so here we are. And I like Saint! But not over others of his era and I feel less strongly about it since Kidd got in last year. If he weren't there I would have saw it as a bad induction. I may change my mind if Grey falls off next year.

 

Still. I would say things worked out pretty solid overall.

[ethantyler]

Re Bob Ellis - strongest draw in the Historical section. That's the gist of the case. Neither Curry nor Firpo can come remotely close to him in this regard. Drew 10,000+ coast-to-coast in pretty much every major territory of his era covering LA, San Fran, St Louis, Omaha, Indianapolis, Detroit, and New York. Also drew equivalent to the touring NWA champion in Kansas. Clearly one of the top babyface stars from 1959-65. Add to this a couple of major title reigns, some legendary feuds that were remembered fondly by fans for decades (vs Bruiser, Rogers, Gouldie, etc), pinfall wins over current HOFers, and the fact that some of these HOFers considered him one of their best opponents to draw with. Buddy Rogers, one of the greatest draws of all time, said that Ellis was his best rival (this covers a lot of ground). 

I agree with you on Street. Weakest candidate in the section, fortunate to have even made the ballot, would be an outright bad induction should that happen. The induction relies on votes from ignorant American reporters who, puzzlingly, continue to participate in a section they clearly don't understand. That means it's a strong possibility moving forward unless those voters spend some time learning about the alternative, stronger, choices. I hope they do.