So, "Ring of Hell"...

[Marty]

Good thread on a book I hope to read sooner rather than later, as well as the one at DVDVR.

 

This review at Amazon may be the best review I've read of them all:

 

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/15977...#R2R3JVCNQ5FKVF

 

The 'Fast Food Nation' of Professional Wrestling, May 25, 2008

By M. Cobo (Los Angeles, CA United States) - See all my reviews

 

 

Attempting to explain to non-wrestling fans just how shocking the news that Chris Benoit had brutally exterminated his immediate family shortly before, in a gesture pregnant with symbolism, strangling himself on his weight bench is more or less an impossible task, mostly because it requires people to explain the appeal of wrestling in the first place. After all, the story arc of Benoit's entire professional career - if not his entire life - is one of the redemptive power of professional wrestling, the vector he exploited to overcome his physical and charismatic shortcomings and become a genuine favorite among fans despite decades of conditioning to reject wrestlers like him on first sight. For fans of Benoit's no-nonsense, give-%110 approach to their beloved form of entertainment, the news of his family's fate was almost Shakespearian in its tragedy; it was as if Paul McCartney were to admit to have killed his first wife Linda and eaten her corpse for Christmas dinner.

 

Matthew Randazzo's "Ring of Hell" is simultaneously both the best possible introduction to that world for outsiders and the most intimidatingly thorough reckoning for fans yet put out. The stories it contains are wild beyond belief, but Randazzo documents his sources extensively, attributes quotes whenever possible, and demonstrates a willingness to question his own sources' credibility if journalistic responsibility demands it. The end result is a ruthlessly compelling read which nevertheless leaves the reader feeling like they've learned something - namely, that contemporary professional wrestling is a soberingly cannibalistic industry driven on the willing suicides of its stars.

 

"Ring of Hell" is the story of a love so absurd normal folks probably haven't ever even considered its existence - an all-consuming love for pro wrestling. As the book exhaustively documents, this singular love motivated Benoit to endure nightmarish training regimens all over the world, poison himself with performance-enabling (not, the book stresses, "-enhancing") drugs, and willingly subject himself to degenerative brutality with a regularity so reliable as to defy comprehension. Worse, Benoit's tragic compulsions are mirrored over the course of the book by dozens of figures, from functionally insane billionaires to palpably good-natured, kind-hearted fellow wrestlers. All are punished.

 

Randazzo explains how a climate for such behavior could even exist, let alone flourish, by relying on an treasure trove of source material, much of which comes to light for the first time in this book's pages. While the notion that pro wrestling is a dangerous, sleazy place shouldn't really be news to anyone, literally every page of "Ring of Hell" brings revelations about the depth and wicked creativity of the professional wrestling industry's inherent amorality with the potential to drop your jaw. Sometimes, these stories are cartoonishly hilarious (Japanese icon Antonio Inoki buying "Inoki Friendship Island" on the assurance of treasure being buried therein by Fidel Castro springs to mind), particularly when Randazzo lets his gift for vituperative phrase-turning loose. Others are salacious enough to stagger even the most hardened wrestling adherent; senior WWE writer Dave Lagana's sexual improprieties (and correlating abuses of power) practically cry out for a book of their own. Most, however, are just sad, all-too-believable tales of former World Champions working at Target, or speaking to sincere desires to try and fill "the empty hole in my heart with wrestling" - a bafflingly inappropriate urge even without being preceded by two hundred pages of supporting exposition.

 

But really, the value of all the garishly ghoulish anecdotes is dwarfed by the context Randazzo steadfastly refuses to ignore for all of the respect Benoit received - earned - over the course of his career. In laying out, in gruesome detail, the hows and the whys of Benoit's rise to prominence, Randazzo fearlessly cites contemporary accounts of not just praise for Benoit's efforts as a wrestler, but stinging critiques of behind-the-scenes forces disinterested in (or outright dismissive of) his televised death spiral. Randazzo also never neglects to remind the reader of Benoit's character, widely considered among the most unimpeachable in the history of wrestling before that weekend in June. Even in the book's first chapter, Randazzo makes a point to mention how, despite "unprecedented pressure to close ranks and demonize Benoit so as to exonerate the wrestling industry of all responsibility", the wrestler's colleagues were a unified front of praise for the man, both in wrestling terms and in terms of the character they'd always only ever seen him exhibit.

 

"Ring of Hell" isn't without its weaknesses; since Benoit neglected to leave a note explaining his actions and the cyclical nature of the news media guaranteed a woefully short shelf-life for the story, investigations have hit a potentially-insurmountable wall, meaning there's precious little in the way of revelations about Benoit's actual crimes (a roadbump likely to prove particularly galling to readers approaching this book first and foremost as a work of true crime). To harp on those weaknesses, however, would mean missing the point of the entire book, which announces itself as a revelatory work rather than a supplementary one from the first page. Its outspoken intent - boldly couched, relentlessly revisited - is to impress upon the reader the sheer impossibility of justifying the tunnel-visioned love for pro wrestling Chris Benoit worked his whole life to embody, and its greatest triumph might be its conclusion that he never really managed to do so until his last few hours on earth.

[Kronos]

For anyone who hasn't gotten their hands on this book yet:

 

If you order this book through www.buy.com, you can use their "set up a new google checkout" and save $10.

 

My order just now with the cheapest shipping was $10.40.

[Bix]

I repeat the previously-asked question of how the fuck does getting randomly punched in the face increase your tolerance for pain? I'm no scientific genius, but I am somewhere in the neighborhood of 100% sure that's bullshit. Lots of things increase pain tolerance. Adrenaline, drugs, mental illness...and those are all things fairly common in wrestling, too. Getting randomly punched in the face by Jushin Liger is not one of those things.

If I want to play rugby & do light training drills, what'll happen the first time I get tackled?

????

 

Athletes are taught to fall safely, like in wrestling.

 

You can only build a threshold towards pain by experiencing pain, making your body stronger & toughening your mind.

??? Some people are neurologically predisposed towards lower pain tolerances.

 

Why do you think they train the way they do in Japan? Because they're sadistic fucks?

Yes.

 

Perhaps some post-WW II baggage?

Yes.

 

Maybe it's because they're yazkua-affliated, so they follow the same intitiation rituals?

Absolutely.

 

How far can we distort the fact that they train hard.

Severe mental, physical, and possibly sexual abuse is not "training hard." It's a bunch of sadistic torture from insane sports star wannabes who were bred to act like this through their own training and the repressed nature of their country. I highly doubt you'd be defending this if you were still just an Australian who didn't move to Japan and such. If this was how wrestlers were trained in the US with Japan training like the Americans do, and the majority of the American trainees were shit wrestlers after going through sadistic torture, would you defend it?

 

I don't know why Jushin Liger punches people. My first question is whether it's random. It could be because they're not doing the exercise right, or they broke a rule, or he wants to see how they react, or he thinks they're not tough enough or it's the same shock you get from being accidently struck in the face during a match. Or maybe he's a sadistic fuck. Whatever the case, I don't think being punched in the face is a big deal in a profession where a loose or mistimed strike can do the same thing. If I get hit in the face during a match, at least I know what it feels like.

It's not being hit that's the issue. It's the surprise facepunching as a symptom of the sadistic nature of the dojo symptom. You're smart enough to know that and are either being willfully ignorant or have brainwashed yourself by moving to Magical Workrate Land.

 

Oh, cut the fucking shit, OJ. The system was ALWAYS horrifying, we just didn't have all these details about it until now. The fact that we didn't know about then doesn't mean it was OK. The fact that it produced great wrestlers who had great matches doesn't make it OK. If my still having something vaguely resembling a moral compass means I should harden up, then fuck you, 'cause I'm not doing it.

Excuse me if I don't find it horrifying or particularly immoral. I think there's an interesting debate to be had over the consequences of such training, but before that happens people need to stop treating it as a freakshow.

Sorry, I can't. It's remarkably fucked up, even by the standards of pro wrestling and pro wrestling training. It makes the Andersons breaking the legs of wide-eyed hopefuls for money look like normal, well-adjusted behavior.

 

Jushin Liger randomly punching dudes in the face =/= full contact sparring.

How is it described in the book? I was thinking more along the lines of when Chigusa steps into the ring with the trainee in GAEA GIRLS.

I hate to break it to you (actually, I don't, but it's a figure of speech that seems appropriate), but Gaea Girls is completely horrifying.

 

I think both systems suck, but at least Hiromitsu Gompei could've theoretically made his money back somehow.

Sasaki killed a guy & should have gone to jail. One death in 50 something years? Perhaps there were more.

I don't think American wrestling training has seen anyone get beaten to death. Accidents, sure. But not a beating in front of witnesses who thought it was business as usual.

 

I do love how you've covered all your bases here. First paragraph is dedicated to playing down the significance of the abuse, the second one still opens up the possibility that the abuse didn't even happen. Of course, it would've made more sense if you flipped there order, but still, pretty savvy.

Yeah, I have a better idea. I'll accept it as a fact and go around telling everyone that institutionalised banana rape is real. If it happened, then it's fucked up. No doubt. There's a pretty good chance that it did happen. It wouldn't surprise me either way. Sorry for not being gungho in believing it. The worst thing you can do is make a mockery of it.

Nobody here has mocked the idea of trainees getting sexually abused.

 

Getting burned is part of working in a kitchen. It is also far more common, than someone shooting on you in a wrestling ring. If you were getting trained in a kitchen and a guy purposefully burned the shit out of you would you try and find someway to rationalize it as a reasonable part of "learning the business", or would you regard it as sadism of the worst ilk?

So take the knives away from them. Don't let them near a stove. We don't want trainees getting hurt.

 

If you don't want to get roughed up, don't enter a dojo. Don't try and be a wrestler. If the recruiting numbers are anything to go by, Japanese young people are doing just that. Even in Sumo where the money's better.

IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING HURT. Get that through your Japanizized brain.

 

I think the most interesting thing that could come of this book would be fans reevaluating why it is that we make exceptions for bad behavior in this business that we would never even think of making for others.

Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches,

Do you know what words mean?

 

stiffness and ass kicking brawlers,

The craving for stiffness came from desiring credible-looking work while not enough people threw decent working strikes. It was misguided. They should've just learned how to work. Dick Murdoch looked like he was potatoing people but was barely touching them. He was an ass-kicking brawler. Nothing wrong with enjoying him punching people. Same goes for Lawler, Dundee, Windham, DiBiase, etc.

 

getting upset at real violence. What a crock. If you wanna watch something where nobody ever gets hurt, nothing bad ever happens and people's lives are never wrecked, I suggest taking up another hobby. Something without an underbelly. It's pretty clear that there's no safe way to do professional wrestling.

There you go missing the point again. Wrestlers getting hurt in the course of taking bumps is a lot different from sadistic idiots beating them half to death because it's their version of tentacle rape.

[ohtani's jacket]

Athletes are taught to fall safely, like in wrestling.

Rubbish. They learn to take contact. The only atheletes who learn how to bump play non-contact sports, like soccer or basketball. Athletes practice in a safer and more controlled environment than "professional" wrestling, but I still say if you can't take a punch you shouldn't wrestle. Just like you shouldn't play rugby if you can't take a tackle or ice hockey if you can't handle body checking. Wrestling requires physicality. Learning to take a bump is not going to help you if you get smacked in the face from an errant knee. Jushin Liger punching people in the face is probably some test or form of discipline, but who'd go into a Japanese ring without sparring?

 

??? Some people are neurologically predisposed towards lower pain tolerances.

So, what the NJPW dojo does brain scans to find trainees with a neurological disposition towards pain tolerance? Dojo training should hurt and hurt like a mother.

 

Severe mental, physical, and possibly sexual abuse is not "training hard." It's a bunch of sadistic torture from insane sports star wannabes who were bred to act like this through their own training and the repressed nature of their country. I highly doubt you'd be defending this if you were still just an Australian who didn't move to Japan and such. If this was how wrestlers were trained in the US with Japan training like the Americans do, and the majority of the American trainees were shit wrestlers after going through sadistic torture, would you defend it?

First of all, I'm from New Zealand. Second of all, "repressed nature of their country"? For a guy who harps on about racism any chance he gets, you don't mind throwing out the stereotypes. Americans wouldn't put up with this kind of training, I assume, but then I wouldn't use US pro-wrestling as a defence against fucking anything.

 

Sorry, I can't. It's remarkably fucked up, even by the standards of pro wrestling and pro wrestling training. It makes the Andersons breaking the legs of wide-eyed hopefuls for money look like normal, well-adjusted behavior.

Like hell it does. I know you've worked up this big image that it's like a POW camp, but wide-eyed hopefuls don't get a look in the door, let alone conned for money.

 

I hate to break it to you (actually, I don't, but it's a figure of speech that seems appropriate), but Gaea Girls is completely horrifying.

Jesus Christ, GAEA Girls is not horrifying.

 

I don't think American wrestling training has seen anyone get beaten to death. Accidents, sure. But not a beating in front of witnesses who thought it was business as usual.

Considering I looked long and hard for the date on this, for the book, I don't need it broken to me that someone dying in wrestling training or sumo training = not good. The point is some dojos are well run, others are not. Some have blood on their hands, most don't. The idea that the whole dojo system is fucked up because of one small, rather insignificant dojo is like lumping everybody in with Stu Hart & his Dungeon.

 

Nobody here has mocked the idea of trainees getting sexually abused.

Rubbish, calling it "banana rape" makes a mockery of it. It's a serious accusation and should be treated as one.

 

IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING HURT. Get that through your Japanizized brain.

OK, I WILL TRY TO DO THAT. THANKS FOR GETTING IT THROUGH MY JAPANIZED BRAIN.

 

Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches,

Do you know what words mean?

Do you understand your desire to see someone get punched, worked or otherwise?

 

The craving for stiffness came from desiring credible-looking work while not enough people threw decent working strikes. It was misguided. They should've just learned how to work. Dick Murdoch looked like he was potatoing people but was barely touching them. He was an ass-kicking brawler. Nothing wrong with enjoying him punching people. Same goes for Lawler, Dundee, Windham, DiBiase, etc.

I see, it's all work. No-one's actually violent and aggressive by nature. Pro-wrestling lures normal people & normally trained everything ought to be honky dory. Wrestling fans can sleep peacefully, knowing they just saw a great brawl & nobody ever hit anybody in real life & it's great that worked violence is just a work. Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

 

There you go missing the point again. Wrestlers getting hurt in the course of taking bumps is a lot different from sadistic idiots beating them half to death because it's their version of tentacle rape.

Well, the people drawing tentacle rape work like slaves, so I guess that connects somehow.

 

Dojo life is pretty simple. Complain about it & you get punished. The means of punishment is the issue here. I don't condone sodomy or being beaten half to death. Nor do I condone breaking a guy because he's rebellious, won't listen or thinks he's tough. But basic dojo life -- sleeping little, eating shit food, exercising until you've mentally and physically exhausted (or throwing up), doing menial jobs and being treated like shit, being roughed up, verbally abused -- these things are OK. It sounds like basic military training & in a sense it's the same. It takes however many months to pass & once you pass you're never treated like that again. I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't train for the military. Doesn't mean other people can't do it, or that they don't appreciate the trainer who they may have hated for months on end.

 

I didn't come to Japan to be near puroresu or any crap like that. I helped with the book as much as I could (which wasn't much.) Still, I won't abide by people who've been clamouring to get some dirt on Japan getting all giddy. If you can discuss the matter without throwing out ridiculous stereotypes about 125 million people or without fuelling your pet peeve over people who like Japanese pro-wrestling, I can accept any and all contrary view points.

 

I always liked Matt, but considering the flack he took back in the day (some deserved, some undeserved), I find it ironic that he's so great now he's written the most important wrestling book ever.

[Dan]

Off the top of my head there were two other dojo deaths. In W-J and the old UWF.

 

Also the training in the U.S. could be bad, especially in back in the good old days. Someone (Gene Anderson, maybe?) pulling out trainees' eyeballs and stomping on them comes to mind. Hiro Matsuda breaking Hogan's leg. Billy Robinson fucking up Iron Sheik's hip on purpose at Verne Gagne's camp. Stu Hart crushing Mongolian Stomper's balls. George Tragos destroying some trainee's arm to the point it had to be amputated, etc...

[Bix]

??? Some people are neurologically predisposed towards lower pain tolerances.

So, what the NJPW dojo does brain scans to find trainees with a neurological disposition towards pain tolerance?

No, just saying that it's not necessarily an issue of pounding it into people. Some just won't be able to take it, some will.

 

Dojo training should hurt and hurt like a mother.

That's what taking bumps over and over is for.

 

Severe mental, physical, and possibly sexual abuse is not "training hard." It's a bunch of sadistic torture from insane sports star wannabes who were bred to act like this through their own training and the repressed nature of their country. I highly doubt you'd be defending this if you were still just an Australian who didn't move to Japan and such. If this was how wrestlers were trained in the US with Japan training like the Americans do, and the majority of the American trainees were shit wrestlers after going through sadistic torture, would you defend it?

First of all, I'm from New Zealand.

Sorry about that. I could've sworn you had said in the past that you were from Oz.

 

Second of all, "repressed nature of their country"? For a guy who harps on about racism any chance he gets, you don't mind throwing out the stereotypes.

Just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's not true. Are you saying that there isn't a certain undercurrent that's unique to Japan as far as being weirdly repressed in various ways (sexually amongst others), hence the porn blurring/tentacle rape paradox that westerners are befuddled by?

 

Sorry, I can't. It's remarkably fucked up, even by the standards of pro wrestling and pro wrestling training. It makes the Andersons breaking the legs of wide-eyed hopefuls for money look like normal, well-adjusted behavior.

Like hell it does. I know you've worked up this big image that it's like a POW camp, but wide-eyed hopefuls don't get a look in the door, let alone conned for money.

Maybe I worded it wrong, but it leads to something I was wondering: Is it generally known in Japan that training for Sumo, pro wrestling, etc. is the way it is? Is it known that it's different from how wrestlers are trained in the rest of the world?

 

Oh, and what does it say about the system that they took it easy on Bad News Allen because they were scared he'd kill them if they pulled their usual shit?

 

I hate to break it to you (actually, I don't, but it's a figure of speech that seems appropriate), but Gaea Girls is completely horrifying.

Jesus Christ, GAEA Girls is not horrifying.

Whyt?

 

Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying.

 

I don't think American wrestling training has seen anyone get beaten to death. Accidents, sure. But not a beating in front of witnesses who thought it was business as usual.

Considering I looked long and hard for the date on this, for the book, I don't need it broken to me that someone dying in wrestling training or sumo training = not good. The point is some dojos are well run, others are not. Some have blood on their hands, most don't. The idea that the whole dojo system is fucked up because of one small, rather insignificant dojo is like lumping everybody in with Stu Hart & his Dungeon.

I'm not saying that every dojo punishes complaints about food with molestation, but don't most, if not all of the dojos have basically the same training style?

 

Nobody here has mocked the idea of trainees getting sexually abused.

Rubbish, calling it "banana rape" makes a mockery of it. It's a serious accusation and should be treated as one.

I honestly didn't mean it as a mockery. I guess I can see how you could interpret it that way, but I didn't mean it as anything other than shorthand.

 

Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches,

Do you know what words mean?

Do you understand your desire to see someone get punched, worked or otherwise?

So everyone who enjoys a well-executed action scene in a movie or TV show is primal lowlife?

 

The craving for stiffness came from desiring credible-looking work while not enough people threw decent working strikes. It was misguided. They should've just learned how to work. Dick Murdoch looked like he was potatoing people but was barely touching them. He was an ass-kicking brawler. Nothing wrong with enjoying him punching people. Same goes for Lawler, Dundee, Windham, DiBiase, etc.

I see, it's all work. No-one's actually violent and aggressive by nature. Pro-wrestling lures normal people & normally trained everything ought to be honky dory. Wrestling fans can sleep peacefully, knowing they just saw a great brawl & nobody ever hit anybody in real life & it's great that worked violence is just a work. Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

No, no, I'm just saying that singling out worked punches makes no sense when everything else you mentioned was singledd out for its danger.

 

Dojo life is pretty simple. Complain about it & you get punished. The means of punishment is the issue here. I don't condone sodomy or being beaten half to death. Nor do I condone breaking a guy because he's rebellious, won't listen or thinks he's tough. But basic dojo life -- sleeping little, eating shit food, exercising until you've mentally and physically exhausted (or throwing up), doing menial jobs and being treated like shit, being roughed up, verbally abused -- these things are OK. It sounds like basic military training & in a sense it's the same. It takes however many months to pass & once you pass you're never treated like that again. I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't train for the military. Doesn't mean other people can't do it, or that they don't appreciate the trainer who they may have hated for months on end.

Exercising until your throw up has nothing to do with wrestling. Should they be in good physical condition? Of course, but they demand a level of conditioning that isn't necessarily needed. The WCW Power Plant was the closest modern American school to the dojo system as far as pushing it with obscene workouts (as well as being tied to a major promotion). They ran off Batista with this system. Batista became a huge star in WWE and a rather decent hand.

 

I didn't come to Japan to be near puroresu or any crap like that.

I know you didn't, but you really, really make it look like you did too much of the time.

 

Still, I won't abide by people who've been clamouring to get some dirt on Japan getting all giddy.

You burying your head in the sand about it != me clamoring for it. There was already a decent amount out there. Not as much as the US or Mexico, but it was enough to say "this is rather fucked up in ways that American wrestling isn't." Which isn't to say American wrestling isn't fucked up, just that it's not fucked up in ways that Japanese wrestling is.

 

If you can discuss the matter without throwing out ridiculous stereotypes about 125 million people

Tell my why I shouldn't have the perception of Japan that I do based on the resources available to me over time.

 

or without fuelling your pet peeve over people who like Japanese pro-wrestling, I can accept any and all contrary view points.

There is nothing wrong with watching Japanese wrestling. I watch Japanese wrestling. Watching it compulsively because you feel you have an obligation to it because it must be superior to other wrestling by default by being in Japan (which I know isn't something you do but is certainly a trait displayed by others on our internets) or defending physical and emotional torture because it's in Japan (which is more what you're doing) is what I take issue with.

 

I always liked Matt, but considering the flack he took back in the day (some deserved, some undeserved), I find it ironic that he's so great now he's written the most important wrestling book ever.

Wow, he said stupid things as at teenager that he's grown past? UNBELIEVABLE!

[S.L.L.]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

[Bix]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

 

I somehow skipped past that line when I was reading/replying. I don't know how I missed it, because it is sincerely, appallingly stupid, even by message board standards, wrestling or otherwise.

[Resident Evil]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

 

Lay off the insults guys. There's no need for that. OJ's a good guy and he doesn't deserve that crap. If you sleaze junkies want to argue nonsensically while drinking your sleaze kool aid than do so as that's perfectly fine but no reason for the FU nonsense/mental help lines.

 

OJ is making more sense overall than you and Bix. At least he doesn't have to look down at everyone and everything out there in some kind of futile attempt to feel superior.

[Indikator]

"Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying."

 

Remember when Lance Storm said Kawadas moves are 3/4th legit? Now tell me what the similarities with Dick Murdochs style are. I don't think there are any. Or, there is a side about Murdoch people don't know about, a rather sadistic side. When I read that Murdoch was capable of making every match a stinker if he wanted to I don't see a man who is all about performance and working save. I see a man that was able to hold is own - for good or for worse. And years ago that was a normal thing, just read the first chapters of Pat Barretts book and the stories about guys like Bert Assirati.

 

Also, I have to wonder why you praise worked punches while having a Moondogs vs Ricky Hutchins & Jeff Hayes match on your youtube account.

 

Do I applaud the Japanese and older Euro guys for their rough and dangerous style? Not exactly. But I have to accept it. 18 months ago I saw a match between a rather untalented 6,4 rookie brawler (Violent Tom) and an old school guy (Christian Eckstein) who is promoting Hannover/EWP. Eckstein absolutely slaughtered the rookie, no sold everything the rookie tried and really roughed him up. The finish was a front headlock that made me cringe. (By the way, it was really interesting to see the crowd react to the match) . The rookie took it like a man, for which I respect him a lot more. And I knew that nobody was able to help him in that situation. Jingus is right that there are a lot of instances where wrestlers get into dangerous situations, even in a worked match. I was backstage (ring crew) after a Viktor Krüger vs. Cannonball Grizzly (PN Newz who can be quite awesome) match when Grizzly wrapped a chain around his fist and threatened Krüger because of his misconduct during the match.

 

And could you please stop with your "OMG Japan is weeeeeiiiiird" speeches? Yeah, their porn is fucked. But I don't think that most American porn is morally intact either and the fixation with silicon breasts is as nasty as anything. Personally I find some social elements of the Japanese society way worse.

In the end every country is fucked up in their own special way.

[S.L.L.]

Remember when Lance Storm said Kawadas moves are 3/4th legit? Now tell me what the similarities with Dick Murdochs style are. I don't think there are any. Or, there is a side about Murdoch people don't know about, a rather sadistic side. When I read that Murdoch was capable of making every match a stinker if he wanted to I don't see a man who is all about performance and working save. I see a man that was able to hold is own - for good or for worse.

I am really not following your line of thought here. Murdoch dogging it every now and then makes him a sadistic shooter? I don't get it.

[Indikator]

Let me try to rephrase.

 

Lance Storm said that Kawada performs his moves with almost full strength. Therefore I doubt it is a good thing for him to use less strength when training the rookies in the dojo. Riki Choshu got mad at CW Anderson for using worked kicks. If worked kicks are (of course not in every Japanese promotion) frowned upon why should rookies be allowed to use or take save kicks? There is a reason why a lot of 80s Gaijins say that the first matches they had on their first tour were near shoots. (For that I blame the lack of communication possibilities)

 

People always assume that wrestling is completely worked, i.e. doesn't hurt. While I don't think that it should hurt I do not and cannot expect from wrestlers to work a completely painless style. It is impossible anyway, every bump in the ring hurts. Brian Ong died because of a bad bump.

 

Dick Murdoch is often used as an example whose punches look great and barely touch the opponent. But as he is able to make a match completely unwatchable I cannot be convinced that he was always a save/good opponent. The wrestler in the ring can be the most talented guy ever, if his opponent doesn't cooperate and/or tries to hurt him the match is not going to be save nor good. And if the opponent doesn't fully cooperate there is always a chance you are going to be hurt. It might be that he doesn't want to take your high risk dive (remember Mike Graham & Jushin Liger) or suplex or he just doesn't care that you are not ready while executing his own move.

 

By the way, there are even cases where the opponent only loses up after being hit with full force (The opponent uses the reasoning that he wants to make sure that his opponent doesn't drag the match down with weak execution). Take that for what it's worth, for me it shows how complex the issue is.

[CodySave]

Let me try to rephrase.

 

Lance Storm said that Kawada performs his moves with almost full strength. Therefore I doubt it is a good thing for him to use less strength when training the rookies in the dojo. Riki Choshu got mad at CW Anderson for using worked kicks. If worked kicks are (of course not in every Japanese promotion) frowned upon why should rookies be allowed to use or take save kicks? There is a reason why a lot of 80s Gaijins say that the first matches they had on their first tour were near shoots. (For that I blame the lack of communication possibilities)

 

People always assume that wrestling is completely worked, i.e. doesn't hurt. While I don't think that it should hurt I do not and cannot expect from wrestlers to work a completely painless style. It is impossible anyway, every bump in the ring hurts. Brian Ong died because of a bad bump.

 

Dick Murdoch is often used as an example whose punches look great and barely touch the opponent. But as he is able to make a match completely unwatchable I cannot be convinced that he was always a save/good opponent. The wrestler in the ring can be the most talented guy ever, if his opponent doesn't cooperate and/or tries to hurt him the match is not going to be save nor good. And if the opponent doesn't fully cooperate there is always a chance you are going to be hurt. It might be that he doesn't want to take your high risk dive (remember Mike Graham & Jushin Liger) or suplex or he just doesn't care that you are not ready while executing his own move.

 

By the way, there are even cases where the opponent only loses up after being hit with full force (The opponent uses the reasoning that he wants to make sure that his opponent doesn't drag the match down with weak execution). Take that for what it's worth, for me it shows how complex the issue is.

From reading this, it sounds like you're saying that Kawada is a safer opponent than Dick Murdoch because Kawada kicks with full force, whereas Murdoch threw excellent-looking punches that barely contacted his opponent. And as a result of Murdoch not hitting his opponent's full blast with his strikes, he's not as a safe a wrestler as Kawada, who legitimately kicks people. And apparently Murdoch's matches can be completely unwatchable due to said punching style, whereas Kawada always puts out good matches due to actually hitting people.

 

Err....what? If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA.

[Bix]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

 

Lay off the insults guys. There's no need for that. OJ's a good guy and he doesn't deserve that crap.

I'm sorry, but that line was so horrifyingly stupid that it deserves insults.

 

If you sleaze junkies want to argue nonsensically while drinking your sleaze kool aid than do so as that's perfectly fine but no reason for the FU nonsense/mental help lines.

 

OJ is making more sense overall than you and Bix. At least he doesn't have to look down at everyone and everything out there in some kind of futile attempt to feel superior.

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

"Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying."

 

Remember when Lance Storm said Kawadas moves are 3/4th legit? Now tell me what the similarities with Dick Murdochs style are. I don't think there are any. Or, there is a side about Murdoch people don't know about, a rather sadistic side. When I read that Murdoch was capable of making every match a stinker if he wanted to I don't see a man who is all about performance and working save. I see a man that was able to hold is own - for good or for worse. And years ago that was a normal thing, just read the first chapters of Pat Barretts book and the stories about guys like Bert Assirati.

I'll second SLL's reply here as I have no idea what your point is. Because Murdoch was a klansman in real life and sometimes enjoyed having bad matches means...what exactly in the context of performing a wrestling match with awesome fake punches?

 

Also, I have to wonder why you praise worked punches while having a Moondogs vs Ricky Hutchins & Jeff Hayes match on your youtube account.

It's part of an angle, gives context to the concession stand brawl I posted right before it, it's mainly chairshots to the back, and I posted it a good 2 years ago so you're just building up strawmen.

 

Do I applaud the Japanese and older Euro guys for their rough and dangerous style? Not exactly. But I have to accept it.

Because...?

 

I was backstage (ring crew) after a Viktor Krüger vs. Cannonball Grizzly (PN Newz who can be quite awesome) match when Grizzly wrapped a chain around his fist and threatened Krüger because of his misconduct during the match.

 

And could you please stop with your "OMG Japan is weeeeeiiiiird" speeches? Yeah, their porn is fucked. But I don't think that most American porn is morally intact either and the fixation with silicon breasts is as nasty as anything. Personally I find some social elements of the Japanese society way worse.

In the end every country is fucked up in their own special way.

It's only about giving context to the dojos and the porn is an easy example to use for the "Japan has its own special kind of weirdness" because it's the most colorful one.

[ohtani's jacket]

No, just saying that it's not necessarily an issue of pounding it into people. Some just won't be able to take it, some will.

Do you really think a 19 year-old Akira Hokuto would've been able to hold her neck in place without going through such training? Simply because she made good times on a bleep test in recruiting (or whatever drills she did)? I don't want to glamourise what happened, but most 19 year old Japanese girls would be in serious, serious trouble if it happened to them. It's an extreme example, but a situation that could've been really, really bad if Hokuto had been under trained & under prepared. I dunno if Hokuto was punched in the face, but I'd wager that she got hit & I'd wager that she would've ran away if it was too much. Whatever "guts" Hokuto had, I'm inclined to believe they came from endurance more than anything a raw, 15-year old rookie possessed.

 

It's not that I think dojo training is the "right way", I'd have serious reservations if it was my daughter or son. But there are risks and I wouldn't want anyone going out there who isn't tough enough. You can say it's a work until you're blue in the face, but it's not that safe. Do I think Japanese wrestlers go too far in their "only the strong survive" mentality? Yes, Gompei should've never died. Do I think punching somebody in the face will save a life? No, probably not. But, just as I think it would be suicide to send someone into a boxing match who's never taken a punch, I think it's crazy to send someone into a ring who's never been roughed up. Perhaps my idea of roughing someone up is different from what actually occurs.

 

That's what taking bumps over and over is for.

Japanese wrestlers do every kind of drill over and over again, and they can't leave the dojo until they've finished every last one. The number of exercises they do may sound excessive, but they train that way in every sport. It's not Jushin Liger is sitting in an armchair, sipping tea & reading The Art of War. He could probably do the same amount of exercises in god knows how much time. Think about those jumping squat things they like to do so much (with your hands on your head.) It's insane the number of those they can do.

 

Just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's not true. Are you saying that there isn't a certain undercurrent that's unique to Japan as far as being weirdly repressed in various ways (sexually amongst others), hence the porn blurring/tentacle rape paradox that westerners are befuddled by?

I might have thought so before coming to Japan, but I don't know if repression is what I'd call it. I agree there's a lot of perfectly legal shit which shouldn't be perfectly legal. I don't know the reason for that, and I can't understand their censorship laws considering the content that's being depicted, but sex is everywhere in Japan, out in the open. It's enough to make you feel prudish or conservative. If they weren't getting any, I could understand, but that's really not the case. There's a lot of pressure on Japanese people. That much I can vouch for. But most people are normal.

 

Maybe I worded it wrong, but it leads to something I was wondering: Is it generally known in Japan that training for Sumo, pro wrestling, etc. is the way it is? Is it known that it's different from how wrestlers are trained in the rest of the world?

Last year, when the Sumo trainee died, people were shocked by what happened. But they quickly forgot about it & continued on with their lives, similar to people who browsed over the Benoit story in a paper. Most Japanese people don't care about sumo or wrestling, so I doubt they know what goes on in a dojo or how it differs from overseas. How much Japanese wrestling fans know, I'm not sure. I suspect it's not much.

 

Oh, and what does it say about the system that they took it easy on Bad News Allen because they were scared he'd kill them if they pulled their usual shit?

It says they're not as tough as they think they are.

 

Whyt?

 

Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying.

I don't think we have the same definition of horrifying... Even if it is horrifying to most people, I think you need to look at the root cause. Did the wrestling business make Chigusa think this is acceptable behaviour? Because I'd argue that Chigusa is the way she is because of her father.

 

I'm not saying that every dojo punishes complaints about food with molestation, but don't most, if not all of the dojos have basically the same training style?

Who knows, dojos are off limits to the public. Considering pro-wrestling dojos are on the bottom rung, there may be more shit that carries on. Pro-wrestling isn't exactly the chosen career path for athletically gifted young people. Within the pro-wrestling dojos, there may be a difference between how the New Japan dojo was/is run and the All Japan ones. It depends on who's being trained. Kiyoshi Tamura runs a gym for regular folks & trains them in a regular way. I want to say there's a class system, but Sumo sounds far worse than pro-wrestling despite a better perception.

 

I honestly didn't mean it as a mockery. I guess I can see how you could interpret it that way, but I didn't mean it as anything other than shorthand.

Ok, I'm sorry.

 

So everyone who enjoys a well-executed action scene in a movie or TV show is primal lowlife?

No, I'm wondering why people who expose themselves to fake violence can be shocked by real violence.

 

No, no, I'm just saying that singling out worked punches makes no sense when everything else you mentioned was singledd out for its danger.

The point is when they pretend to hit each other it's fine, but if someone gets hit for real it's horrifying. By that logic everything that happens in Japanese pornography should be OK, because they're only pretending to do it. That's twisting things a lot, but let's not pretend that Dick Murdoch wasn't a redneck and only played one on TV. Or that he would never hit anyone for real. Or that wrestlers are actors doing something totally unnatural for them. It's a work, but people are always arguing that wrestlers forget that. I think fans cling to it a bit too much. If wrestling were truly a work & so easy to separate from reality, they'd be far more normal people and far less wrecks.

 

Exercising until your throw up has nothing to do with wrestling. Should they be in good physical condition? Of course, but they demand a level of conditioning that isn't necessarily needed. The WCW Power Plant was the closest modern American school to the dojo system as far as pushing it with obscene workouts (as well as being tied to a major promotion). They ran off Batista with this system. Batista became a huge star in WWE and a rather decent hand.

I really don't think you can argue that the Japan dojos don't work. You can argue with their methods, but the results are pretty clear.

 

I know you didn't, but you really, really make it look like you did too much of the time.

I haven't been to a show the whole time I've been here & only rent videos/DVDs because it's better than buying them. I've tried to tell people how dead wrestling is in Japan, but it upsets people. I don't even like puroresu that much to be honest.

 

You burying your head in the sand about it != me clamoring for it. There was already a decent amount out there. Not as much as the US or Mexico, but it was enough to say "this is rather fucked up in ways that American wrestling isn't." Which isn't to say American wrestling isn't fucked up, just that it's not fucked up in ways that Japanese wrestling is.

Maybe. I'd argue that Japanese wrestling does many things better than American pro-wrestling in regards to wrestlers' health.

 

Tell my why I shouldn't have the perception of Japan that I do based on the resources available to me over time.

Do you really think the majority of the Japanese population enjoy that sort of pornography? Do the majority even know it exists? I don't think it's wise to judge a country or its people on their pornography industry. For one thing, 20% or more of the population are over 65. More than half the population are women.

 

There is nothing wrong with watching Japanese wrestling. I watch Japanese wrestling. Watching it compulsively because you feel you have an obligation to it because it must be superior to other wrestling by default by being in Japan (which I know isn't something you do but is certainly a trait displayed by others on our internets) or defending physical and emotional torture because it's in Japan (which is more what you're doing) is what I take issue with.

I'm not defending it just because it's Japan. The only thing that bothers me about the Japan aspect is if people start saying it happens because the Japanese are sadistic fucks or repressed perverts, since that's not how I know Japanese people to be. I defended it because I don't consider it to be torture.

[ohtani's jacket]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

 

Yakuza kills someone in a movie = cool.

Yakuza kills someone in real life = horrifying.

 

Wrestler pretends to punch someone = cool.

Wrestler punches someone for real = horrifying.

 

You tell me who's being naive. It's only supposed to happen in the movies/worked match? It's not about condoning it, it's about being shocked or horrified.

[Resident Evil]

Err....what? If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA.

Oh man, this thread is even go to get more fun because Kawada has his fan base who defend his strikes as harmless.

 

I don't think the line "If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA" always makes sense. Maybe some people who watch wrestling like hard hitting violence and prefer or like a lot the emotion manipulationg action inside a wrestling ring? Are they any more wrong for liking contact fighting in wrestling than the MMA/Boxing/Hockey/Kickboxing fan who likes thier violent fighting action? If those guys can have it, than why not pro wrestling?

 

I think some people (not saying you CodySave) seem to be having trouble accepting the fact that they like violence and that wrestling no matter how you do it is always violent. It'd be interesting to see their take on hockey fights.

[Bix]

Just to get it out of the way: I'm not saying everyone in Japan is a sadist/pervert/whatever. Just that there are certain things along these lines unique to Japan and the country is the only thing that ties them together.

 

No, just saying that it's not necessarily an issue of pounding it into people. Some just won't be able to take it, some will.

Do you really think a 19 year-old Akira Hokuto would've been able to hold her neck in place without going through such training?

I honestly don't know, but if the training is a worse experience than breaking your neck and having to hold it in place for 20 minutes while performing a wrestling match, then the training is too sadistic.

 

It's not that I think dojo training is the "right way", I'd have serious reservations if it was my daughter or son. But there are risks and I wouldn't want anyone going out there who isn't tough enough. You can say it's a work until you're blue in the face, but it's not that safe. Do I think Japanese wrestlers go too far in their "only the strong survive" mentality? Yes, Gompei should've never died. Do I think punching somebody in the face will save a life? No, probably not. But, just as I think it would be suicide to send someone into a boxing match who's never taken a punch, I think it's crazy to send someone into a ring who's never been roughed up. Perhaps my idea of roughing someone up is different from what actually occurs.

I would think someone who survived daily bump drills would be tough enough to be a wrestler.

 

Oh, and what does it say about the system that they took it easy on Bad News Allen because they were scared he'd kill them if they pulled their usual shit?

It says they're not as tough as they think they are.

That's all/

 

 

Whyt?

 

Kicking someone in the face as hard as humanly possible and busting up their mouth to prepare them for a worked performance that is based on "opponents" trusting each other with their bodies is horrifying.

I don't think we have the same definition of horrifying... Even if it is horrifying to most people, I think you need to look at the root cause. Did the wrestling business make Chigusa think this is acceptable behaviour? Because I'd argue that Chigusa is the way she is because of her father.

Chigusa's dad messed her up, I'm sure, but she obviously got the idea that the sort of training she led was a-okay from the AJW dojo.

 

I'm not saying that every dojo punishes complaints about food with molestation, but don't most, if not all of the dojos have basically the same training style?

Who knows, dojos are off limits to the public. Considering pro-wrestling dojos are on the bottom rung, there may be more shit that carries on. Pro-wrestling isn't exactly the chosen career path for athletically gifted young people. Within the pro-wrestling dojos, there may be a difference between how the New Japan dojo was/is run and the All Japan ones. It depends on who's being trained. Kiyoshi Tamura runs a gym for regular folks & trains them in a regular way. I want to say there's a class system, but Sumo sounds far worse than pro-wrestling despite a better perception.

It wouldn't shock me at all that New Japan was the worst, but the dojos that we know any details about all seem to run along the same lines.

 

So everyone who enjoys a well-executed action scene in a movie or TV show is primal lowlife?

No, I'm wondering why people who expose themselves to fake violence can be shocked by real violence.

 

No, no, I'm just saying that singling out worked punches makes no sense when everything else you mentioned was singledd out for its danger.

The point is when they pretend to hit each other it's fine, but if someone gets hit for real it's horrifying. By that logic everything that happens in Japanese pornography should be OK, because they're only pretending to do it. That's twisting things a lot, but let's not pretend that Dick Murdoch wasn't a redneck and only played one on TV. Or that he would never hit anyone for real. Or that wrestlers are actors doing something totally unnatural for them. It's a work, but people are always arguing that wrestlers forget that. I think fans cling to it a bit too much. If wrestling were truly a work & so easy to separate from reality, they'd be far more normal people and far less wrecks.

It's not being shocked, it's that punching an unsuspecting trainee (not unsuspecting that he'd be abused in general) is clearly a worse act than pretending to punch a willing participant.

 

Exercising until your throw up has nothing to do with wrestling. Should they be in good physical condition? Of course, but they demand a level of conditioning that isn't necessarily needed. The WCW Power Plant was the closest modern American school to the dojo system as far as pushing it with obscene workouts (as well as being tied to a major promotion). They ran off Batista with this system. Batista became a huge star in WWE and a rather decent hand.

I really don't think you can argue that the Japan dojos don't work. You can argue with their methods, but the results are pretty clear.

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that there are parts that have nothing to do with wrestling, and as the Power Plant showed, doesn't necessarily breed good wrestlers or stars.

 

You burying your head in the sand about it != me clamoring for it. There was already a decent amount out there. Not as much as the US or Mexico, but it was enough to say "this is rather fucked up in ways that American wrestling isn't." Which isn't to say American wrestling isn't fucked up, just that it's not fucked up in ways that Japanese wrestling is.

Maybe. I'd argue that Japanese wrestling does many things better than American pro-wrestling in regards to wrestlers' health.

Such as what? They use less steroids (while still using steroids)?

 

Something really bad clearly happened to Yuji Nagata a few months ago when he had his not a stroke and he's back already. It doesn't look too good on the surface to say the least.

 

There is nothing wrong with watching Japanese wrestling. I watch Japanese wrestling. Watching it compulsively because you feel you have an obligation to it because it must be superior to other wrestling by default by being in Japan (which I know isn't something you do but is certainly a trait displayed by others on our internets) or defending physical and emotional torture because it's in Japan (which is more what you're doing) is what I take issue with.

I'm not defending it just because it's Japan. The only thing that bothers me about the Japan aspect is if people start saying it happens because the Japanese are sadistic fucks or repressed perverts, since that's not how I know Japanese people to be. I defended it because I don't consider it to be torture.

You haven't explained why you don't think it's torture other than "Wrestlers will get hit anyway."

[Resident Evil]

I don't agree with what some of the things the dojos do (than again I don't know what's true or not) but I do know the end result is seemingly a wrestler better prepared for the ring.

 

In particular, the way they stretch their trainees out which give them better flexibility. You will see on average the Japanese wrestlers all being more flexible. It's absolutely one of the most brutal things ever but it definitely helps them once they're in the ring.

[Bix]

I don't agree with what some of the things the dojos do (than again I don't know what's true or not) but I do know the end result is seemingly a wrestler better prepared for the ring.

 

In particular, the way they stretch their trainees out which give them better flexibility. You will see on average the Japanese wrestlers all being more flexible. It's absolutely one of the most brutal things ever but it definitely helps them once they're in the ring.

Then have RVD or whoever teach people how to stretch.

[Resident Evil]

I don't agree with what some of the things the dojos do (than again I don't know what's true or not) but I do know the end result is seemingly a wrestler better prepared for the ring.

 

In particular, the way they stretch their trainees out which give them better flexibility. You will see on average the Japanese wrestlers all being more flexible. It's absolutely one of the most brutal things ever but it definitely helps them once they're in the ring.

Then have RVD or whoever teach people how to stretch.

 

Something needs to be done because this is an area where North American wrestlers are lacking and it's hurting them in the ring.

[CodySave]

Err....what? If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA.

Oh man, this thread is even go to get more fun because Kawada has his fan base who defend his strikes as harmless.

 

I don't think the line "If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA" always makes sense. Maybe some people who watch wrestling like hard hitting violence and prefer or like a lot the emotion manipulationg action inside a wrestling ring? Are they any more wrong for liking contact fighting in wrestling than the MMA/Boxing/Hockey/Kickboxing fan who likes thier violent fighting action? If those guys can have it, than why not pro wrestling?

 

I think some people (not saying you CodySave) seem to be having trouble accepting the fact that they like violence and that wrestling no matter how you do it is always violent. It'd be interesting to see their take on hockey fights.

 

Oh, I enjoy a good hockey fight as much as anyone. The difference is, pro wrestling by design = fake fighting designed to entertain fans by a.) looking real without being a real fight and/or b.) being an over-the-top stunt show and/or c.) being a comedy performance. MMA, hockey fights, fights in other sports = an actual fight between people that legitimately want to hit one another.

 

I agree that there's always some violence in a wrestling match, but there's a huge difference between wrestlers who use shoot strikes in a pro wrestling match and a wrestlers who use worked punches during a match and accidently stiff one another a time or two.

[MikeCampbell]

Bix, why are you so hung up on the punching thing? I'll agree that punching someone in the ear until they bleed is excessive, but I don't think that punching itself is such a bad thing. It's one of the most common strikes in the business. If you don't know how to take a punch, you're really in trouble.

 

Not to mention that punches very in force depending on who's throwing them. If Matt Bently, who punches like he's knocking on a door trains you for his punches, and you've gotta work against Bradshaw, you're really screwed.

[Bix]

Bix, why are you so hung up on the punching thing? I'll agree that punching someone in the ear until they bleed is excessive, but I don't think that punching itself is such a bad thing. It's one of the most common strikes in the business. If you don't know how to take a punch, you're really in trouble.

 

Not to mention that punches very in force depending on who's throwing them. If Matt Bently, who punches like he's knocking on a door trains you for his punches, and you've gotta work against Bradshaw, you're really screwed.

I'm dwelling on his inclusion of worked punches with actual violence and the tangents that came from it.

 

There's also a difference between working snug and potatoing people.

[MikeCampbell]

There's also a difference between working snug and potatoing people.

Agreed. But in that same respect, look at The JBL/Blue Meanie incident from the first One Night Stand. The fans' general opinion may have been "screw JBL" but most people in the business looked at it as Meanie being a whiner. Also, the Bob Holly/Matt Capotelli Tough Enough incident. The fellow TE trainess felt bad for him, but both the TE trainers and the workers said that he just needed to suck it up.