80s to 90s

[ohtani's jacket]

How effective was Hogan after dropping the title to the Warrior?

 

I was part of the international audience at the time and that was pretty much it. WWF went off the air shortly thereafter.

 

Was Warrior really an 80s star or the first attempt at making a 90s star?

 

If the 90s didn't start until the Attitude era in '98 then what is it? A lost decade? What about the New Generation, Nitro, the NWO?

[Indikator]

I´d say the moment ECW got infamous

[Childs]

If the 90s didn't start until the Attitude era in '98 then what is it? A lost decade? What about the New Generation, Nitro, the NWO?

It wasn't a lost decade but you can't just presume that the dawn of the '90s signaled a huge change in the business. We have a tendency to manage information by segmenting it into decades and other easily digestible bites. But the events we're talking about aren't dictated by the calendar turning.

 

This is a frustrating tendency in arguments about all kinds of sports. For example, people try to say Jack Morris should be a Hall-of-Famer because he was the winningest pitcher of the 1980s. But how is that a greater distinction than being the winningest pitcher between 1976 and 1985? He just happened to register his best performance in a way that perfectly fit a calendar decade. Using the decades as bookends can be a fun device for making lists and such. But we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming that anything changes much when we flip from one decade to the next.

[ohtani's jacket]

My argument it's that there was a seismic shift as soon as the calendar flipped over to January 1st, 1990.

 

I was curious about how much of 80s wrestling managed to adapt through to the 90s, and I still don't see how the business wasn't changing in the early 90s. John mentioned that Hogan was still on top in the early 90s, but there was a concerted effort to make Warrior the top star in 1990.

 

Yes this could have happened in 1986 if the time frame had been different, but in wrestling it wasn't.

 

By 1996 you had Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels headlining a Wrestlemania. The roots of that are in the early 90s. It wasn't a case of adapting simply because it was the 90s, it was how business went. They lost the better part of their 80s audience and as business starts to decline, you see how things adapt or fail to adapt.

 

As far as I'm concerned, 1990 WCW is the last year that looks like it could've been 80s NWA.

[jdw]

How effective was Hogan after dropping the title to the Warrior?

He was the anchor of WCW for more than half a decade, including their period of greatest success.

 

In the WWF, their attendance went in the tank the moment he left in 1992.

 

 

Was Warrior really an 80s star or the first attempt at making a 90s star?

80s star. He literally peaked on 4/1/90. He didn't draw as WWF Champ.

 

 

If the 90s didn't start until the Attitude era in '98 then what is it? A lost decade? What about the New Generation, Nitro, the NWO?

The NWO would have died if Hogan wasn't the top star. The Outsiders weren't taking WCW through the roof.

 

Nitro?

 

The initial stars of it were Hogan, Flair, Savage... and there was that big moment of Lex jumping. Mix in Sting and Lex working a storyline where people were waiting for Lex to turn on him.

 

 

John

[kjh]

The NWO would have died if Hogan wasn't the top star.

What is 80s about Hulk Hogan playing cool heel? Going further back, what is 80s about Hogan wrestling in WCW and fans booing him out of the building? Just because Hogan forced WCW fans to relive the 80s in 1995, doesn't mean that the business hadn't changed significantly from the late 80s, it just means that Hogan and WCW were tiresomely slow to react to the changes.

[jdw]

My argument it's that there was a seismic shift as soon as the calendar flipped over to January 1st, 1990.

Except you're not making an arguement. You're making a claim, and failing to support it.

 

What happened in January 1?

 

Flair was champ. Hogan was champ.

 

Flair wouldn't drop the title until July, and it was to a Sting that he'd been feuding with back to 1988.

 

Hogan dropped the title to Warrior, who was half a Road Warrior's knock off and half and heir to Hogan's sterioded up top face. He was a main eventer in the WWF back to 1988.

 

Of course Warrior and Sting failed, so the companies went back to Hogan and Flair in early 1991. WCW went to another wrestler of the 80's to replace Flair (Lex), who failed. Then another turn with Sting. One could try to call Ron Simmons a "wrestler of the 90s", but in reality he was pushed by Bill Watts to be his new Big Black Star, which was Bill's attempt to replicate the success he had with JYD and Butch Reed... in the early-to-mid-80s. There wasn't *anything* new about Watt's pushes and booking - he was pushing concepts from the 70s and 80s. So Simmons failed, and we finally got something somewhat "90s" - Vaders run in 1993. By the end of the year, the plan was to make Sid, a definative 80s-type wrestler, the new Franchise. Sid being Sid, that didn't happen. So they went to Flair, who inturn was used to put over Hogan and his long dynasty as the top star. The top stars, often opposite Hogan? Flair, Savage, Piper, Sting, Luger. Eventually got to Goldberg, which didn't last more than half a year before it was back to a Hogan-Flair feud on top.

 

I walked throught the WWF before.

 

Nothing happened in January 1, 1990 other than something in your mind.

 

 

I was curious about how much of 80s wrestling managed to adapt through to the 90s, and I still don't see how the business wasn't changing in the early 90s. John mentioned that Hogan was still on top in the early 90s, but there was a concerted effort to make Warrior the top star in 1990.

There were various efforts to have *younger* wrestler take over the top spots. It wasn't "New Style Wrestlers", but younger guys because there was the thought that Hogan and Flair couldn't go forever.

 

 

By 1996 you had Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels headlining a Wrestlemania. The roots of that are in the early 90s. It wasn't a case of adapting simply because it was the 90s, it was how business went. They lost the better part of their 80s audience and as business starts to decline, you see how things adapt or fail to adapt.

Prior to Austin, there was a constant battle in Vince's mind of Going Back to Big Guys, it failing, him going to Smaller Guys (Bret & Shawn), that failing, and him Going Back to Big Guys.

 

People love to point to Bret vs. Shawn on top at Mania in 1996. Of course they "main evented" Survior Series in 1992. Of course the truly most pushed match heading into the show was Savage & Warrior vs. Flair & Ramon because Vince didn't really have full faith in his move to Hart. And of course Bret vs. Shawn was to main event Mania 97. Except Vince didn't have full faith in it, and moved the title over to Sid to have Sid vs. Taker be the main event in a Battle of Big Guys.

 

There just wasn't a seismic shift.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, 1990 WCW is the last year that looks like it could've been 80s NWA.

1991

01/30/91 Clash: Flair vs Steiner

02/24/91 WrestleWar: Horsemen vs Sting & Steiners & Pillman (Wargames)

05/19/91 SuperBrawl: Flair vs. Fujinami

06/14/91 Clash: Flair vs Eaton

07/14/91 Bash: Lex vs. Windham (originally Flair vs. Lex)

09/05/91 Clash: Arn & Larry Z vs Rick Steiner & Bill Kazmier (show a mess)

10/27/91 Havoc: Lex vs Simmons

11/19/91 Clash: Arn & Larry vs Steamer & Dustin / Sting vs Rude

12/29/91 Starcade: Sting wins Lethal Lottery to set up Sting vs Lex

 

Most of the year looks like it could have come out of the 80s.

 

1994 is worse. Flair vs Sting, Flair vs Steamboat, Flair vs Hogan (three of them). One did have Vader up top in the mix opposite Flair early in the year and a bit against Sting. It pretty much was the exception to the rule.

 

You're more likely to pinpoint things on a specific date to when Hogan beat Sheik for the WWF title than on 01/01/90.

 

 

John

[jdw]

The NWO would have died if Hogan wasn't the top star.

What is 80s about Hulk Hogan playing cool heel?

Hogan largely was playing Flair - leader of a heel group. He dropped the sex aspect that Flair had, but other than that was a big talking, cool heel who bitched out to faces (Savage, Piper, Sting, Lex, etc) until the Horsemen/NWO came in to make the save.

 

 

Going further back, what is 80s about Hogan wrestling in WCW and fans booing him out of the building?

WWF fans turning on Bob Backlund.

 

 

 

Just because Hogan forced WCW fans to relive the 80s in 1995, doesn't mean that the business hadn't changed significantly from the late 80s, it just means that Hogan and WCW were tiresomely slow to react to the changes.

Hogan got pushed down the throats in 1994.

 

Did it worked?

 

Not much in US Pro Wrestling was "working" relative to the 80s.

 

On the other hand, Hogan vs Flair and Hogan vs Vader did better PPV business than Vader vs. Cactus, one of the rare definative "90s" match ups in the early-to-mid 90s in WCW where two pure 90s style wrestlers hooked up.

 

It's pretty much impossible to point to a date in the early 90s and say, "There it is... it changed there and never went back."

 

John

[goodhelmet]

You could make the same argument that the 80s didn't begin until Vince Jr. took over the WWF or that the territory system died. In fact, wouldn't it be better to look at it as the change from territory system to rockin' wrestling to whatever instead of by decade?

[Guest Hack]

You could make the same argument that the 80s didn't begin until Vince Jr. took over the WWF or that the territory system died. In fact, wouldn't it be better to look at it as the change from territory system to rockin' wrestling to whatever instead of by decade?

Agreed. The only time I can think of where the wrestling actually changed with the decade (or at least close to the beginning of the decade) would be when Vince bought WCW.

[ohtani's jacket]

He was the anchor of WCW for more than half a decade, including their period of greatest success.

The point of this rather regrettable thread was who adapted into the 90s.

 

Hogan clearly adapted & became a 90s stars. If you think that's because of 80s booking fine. Personally, I think the Horsemen were positively 80s and the NWO positively 90s. They would've looked out of place in each other's era.

 

You've got me confused about whether the 70s ended in 1984 or the 80s began in the late 70s and ran for twenty years.

 

In the WWF, their attendance went in the tank the moment he left in 1992.

Nothing says the 80s are over more than Hogan leaving the company.

 

80s star. He literally peaked on 4/1/90. He didn't draw as WWF Champ.

I don't know if a year and half at the end of the 80s qualifies you as an 80s "star", but he was certainly an 80s worker and therefore failed to adapt.

 

 

The NWO would have died if Hogan wasn't the top star. The Outsiders weren't taking WCW through the roof.

80s heel Hogan joins forces with 80s stars Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to feud with 80s beach bum Sting?

 

Nitro?

 

The initial stars of it were Hogan, Flair, Savage... and there was that big moment of Lex jumping. Mix in Sting and Lex working a storyline where people were waiting for Lex to turn on him.

Yes, it looked like an episode of WWF Superstars or the Power Hour.

[Bob Morris]

I'd argue that eras really should be defined more by the mindset/landscape of the periods rather than by a decade.

 

"80's wrestling" that people think of tends to go back when the WWF started the Hogan push (1984) and ends with 1990 when the Warrior push began and the WWF began losing steam. Hogan did get additional title reigns after the Warrior reign, but the WWF was still losing steam thanks to angles, the Zahorian steroid trial and Hogan losing a bit of steam.

 

There's a theory that fans started turning on Hogan, but in reality, it was because certain characters just came off as cool to fans, such as Undertaker, or the fans didn't buy the booking, such as how they tried to make Sid the bad guy in the 1992 Royal Rumble and it didn't work.

 

But anyway... call the 1984 to 1990 period the "wrestling goes national" period, because that's when wrestling exposure on cable TV began to really build steam, as well as the PPV market becoming a lucrative field for wrestling when used properly.

 

Then go to 1990 to about mid-1997... this is the period in which the two main promotions, WCW and WWF, are trying many different things and nothing is working to draw in the crowds WWF was drawing during its earlier peak period. There were some wrestlers who could keep crowds stable, but they weren't causing attendance or business to continually increase, just keeping it in a holding pattern, with the once-in-a-while brief increase that ended up disappearing. Not sure how you'd define that period... I'm not sure if "dark ages" is a good fit, because it implies everything was bad and I don't think that was the case... a lot of ideas were bad for business, but some might have helped business more if they had been better planned or promoters truly got behind them.

 

The next era I would define as mid-1997 to about of March 2001... call it the "NWO/Attitude era." It started with Hogan turning heel and the NWO's official formation and ended when WWF bought WCW and Austin turned heel.

 

It was that era in which it was clear the way business was being conducted and programming was presented was different.

 

I would argue the NWO wasn't exactly like the Horsemen... it did get some inspiration from the Horsemen, but it was presented to look a little more unpredictable, and to look like you never knew who would be their next target. With the Horsemen, you generally could figure out who was going to be targeted and their motivation was clear. With the NWO, you often got spots in which an attack happened just because the NWO could do it.

 

Also, the way the NWO vignettes were presented... they were filmed to look like they were truly "renegade" whereas Horsemen vignettes were presented like any other vignette for a wrestler.

 

Then comes WWF with its Attitude phase in which product was getting presented quite a bit differently, and it was more about the promos and the sketches than it was about the matches. The characters certainly weren't 80's style, but they still tended to be larger than life.

 

When the Austin heel run began, you ended up with the period in which things were being thrown to the wall to make them stick and the booking wasn't good, but it was all getting based around the formats and characters that worked during the "NWO/Attitude era."

 

The WWE, since then, has just been trying to find its new niche with varying degrees of success... although it's portrayed that the major PPVs are doing bigger business, it's worth noting that PPVs are now being sold that way overseas, whereas before, they weren't in every foreign country.

 

But I would argue there is still some "NWO/Attitude era" mentality taking place. I wouldn't group the current years into the same era, but it's like the 1991 to mid-1997 period in which there is still mentaliy from the period before it evident in what is being presented.

[Guest robgomm]

Karl Stern had a categorisation for this that he detailed in the first (and only) issue of a retro wrestling magazine that he did at F4W. For this era, he wrote:

 

TERRITORIAL ERA: The territorial era ran roughly from 1965 until 1984 and was dominated by the National Wrestling Alliance who put in place a near mob like hold on pro wrestling. Major names during this period were Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Harley Race, Dory Funk Jr., Terry Funk, Verne Gagne, Superstar Graham, and Bruno Sammartino.

 

HULK-A-MANIA ERA: This is the era of the national expansion of the WWF/WWE. Hulk Hogan was the biggest national star of this era though the National Wrestling Alliance still was a major player until the end of this time. The Hulk-a-mania era covers roughly from 1984 until 1991. Major names of this era were Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Andre the Giant, Lex Luger, The Road Warriors, Nikita Koloff, Jake Roberts, Ted DiBiase, and Jerry Lawler.

Which is where he ended, as he wasn't planning on talking much about post-Hulkamania wrestling.