Rob Naylor Comp

[Dylan Waco]

I thought the GAB match was pretty good.

 

Thought Armgeddon was a terrible match that went on way too long.

 

Thought the Ladder Match was an abysmal match. In particular I thought Michaels performance in that was one of the worst performances in by a supposedly good wrestler in a big match that I've ever seen.

[Resident Evil]

The ladder match was one of the very few WWE matches I watched that year. I'm actually very fussy when it comes to wrestling matches (though it might not seem that way because I tend to stay away from being negative about matches) but man, I gotta say the ladder match was really, really good. And I don't remember Michaels having one of the worse preformances ever by a "good" (Michaels is a legit great wrestler as judged by the average fan) wrestler in a big match.

[S.L.L.]

But if there were all these bandwagon jumpers making these claims like you say there were, it should be a fast trip through the DVDVR search engine.

Wasn't most of the material in the ridiculous "Mark Henry has somehow become the fulcrum of wrestling talking points" on DVDVR lost during the purge of non-stick wrestling?

 

Sadly we also lost such gems as the "Kane vs. Abyss, who is a better worker" thread, and the "pictures of women in wrestling bleeding as fetish porn" thread.

 

Can't say I miss it much.

 

Non-Stick wasn't actually purged. They kept it archived, but the archive was hidden to everyone but the admins. I have access to it now (I pulled my quotes from the Henry vs. Abyss thread, actually). Everything is listed as being on the main wrestling folder, so I don't know if everyone has access to it now or if it's just me. But it is still there.

[Dylan Waco]

The ladder match was one of the very few WWE matches I watched that year. I'm actually very fussy when it comes to wrestling matches (though it might not seem that way because I tend to stay away from being negative about matches) but man, I gotta say the ladder match was really, really good. And I don't remember Michaels having one of the worse preformances ever by a "good" (Michaels is a legit great wrestler as judged by the average fan) wrestler in a big match.

Without forcing myself to watch it again, I remember Michaels badly telegraphing several spots, screwing up the big table spot badly, working reckless, and having typically terrible strikes (though those were far worse in the armageddon match to be fair). I thought Jericho was remarkable in it as he was basically working with Sabu circa 99.

[Ditch]

Coming in a bit late here.

Mike is a guy who's opinions are definitely in line with Phil's and Tom's for the most part and who's wrestling aesthetic is largely informed by theirs. That said, definitely a guy who can form his own opinions.

 

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...?showtopic=2167

 

Yeah, his reasons for not liking Quackenbush are kinda Phil-ish. Obviously a guy coming from the same place as Phil. Still him forming a completely opposing view to Phil's. Such is the case with most of the board.

Having people from Wrestling KO become such an important part of the DVDVR puro board, especially when it comes to the voting stuff, has been fascinating. At times it seems to the untrained eye to be a hivemind, for instance giving support to Battlarts or critiquing KENTA matches. But I find it next to impossible to say with any certainty whether a given match will meet with Mike's approval or scorn, or anyone else for that matter. Plenty of Purotopia denizens are predictable to at least some degree, myself included, but not those from KO. That like-minded but not lock-step KO posters, all of whom have a lot of knowledge and are willing to debate, clashes with easygoing puro watchers for whom the cool moves are still novel and thus enough to make a match commendable. The dynamic requires some moderation to keep in line, but the back-and-forth combined with a full variety of outlooks has really added to the subforum. If KO really was sheep and a couple shepherds, that wouldn't be the case.

[tomk]

Reading through this a bunch of quickish points:

 

1)

I thought El-P's silence was a bit deafening, because he started the whole thing and then ducked out.

I think part of what’s missing from people reflecting back on the HBk vis a vis Henry threads is one of the points was that Henry had as many if not more moves in his arsenal than HBK from same period. And yet you’d get people posting “but HBK has bigger moveset”.

 

Part of the idiocy of a good chunk of the "MOVES~!" discussion on the net is alot of it involved people saying "MOVES~!" without actually discussing the moves wrestlers use.

 

One example is the Mayweather/Show match, which was good for novelty value but nowhere near MOTY type quality

Well most people seemed to go pretty crazy about the Wrestlemania match

I have seen a lot of praise for the Mania Taker v Michaels match. That praise hasn’t been about the moves in the match or the workrate. The praise has been that it was a very well scripted match between two professionals who are masters of conveying emotions through physicality, who know how to captivate your attention through their facial expressions which stay in character for whole match as they never make you forget their reason for being in the world and in this match where they managed to create this epic match feel yadda yadda. These are the exact same criteria under which Show v Mayweather was praised.

 

HBK v Undertaker gets some additional praise for the novelty of it's length.

 

EL-P's posts were:

 

I love moves. I love workrate. Fuck Jerry Lawler.

you can hear stuff like "Bill Dundee is the greatest worker ever" and stupidity like this. So I think we're still deeply into the "make fun of MOVEZ" phase.

I could have said "Fuck Riki Choshu" too for instance

From crossfacechicken wing’s 3/4/85 observer recap:

 

*Several All Japan wresters have started wrestling a faster pace to keep up w/ Choshu’s style.

Schneider pointed out that Dundee was a guy with moves and so EL_P threw out workrate sprinter Choshu's name instead.

 

EL_P may have just as well said that "I don’t like Saturn cause he doesn’t have enough moves, high enough workrate."

How do you respond to that?

I sure as hell wasn't. I mean the discussion was a response to Rob's points, cause there is at least something worth arguing about there. There is nothing to argue with folks who think Saturn didn't do enough moves.

EL-P was silent cause he had nothing worthwhile to say.

 

2)

 

The problem starts when people start saying, and I quote, "people who don't like Mark Henry don't like him because he's fat, black and sweaty".

I'm a little reluctant to make this point. Anarchristxxx very politely asked me that I stop making fun of him for being a Holocaust denier and thinking that blacks were a subhuman. He said that he stopped posting that type of thing on wrestling boards two years ago and I should stop harping on it. I have respected that request. But since this is a thread where he wants to revisit discussions from more than two years ago, he’s forced my hand.

 

In the Henry threads Anarchristxxx was a guy who regularly posted that Henry was rubbish and Booker T was worthless. At the same time he was regularly posting about blacks as a "species" being subhuman and incapable of culture, yadda yadda. People suggested that he might have less than savory reasons for thinking that Henry was rubbish and Booker T was useless he responded annoyed that anyone qould question his unbiased judgement. Called people who did biggoted. Thinking that his motives were false demonstrated prejudice against white supremacists. Bigotry against bigots of course is the worst kind of bigotry (bigotry squared).

 

I think the problem doesn't start when people start saying, and I quote, "people who don't like Mark Henry don't like him because he's fat, black and sweaty". The problem starts when people who think all blacks are trash that society needs to be rid of call individual blacks rubbish.

 

3) Historical revisionism:

First it’s kind of ridiculous to read a Holocaust denier complaining about the evils of historical revisionism.

 

Second the historical record is pretty clear. Historical record has most successful wrestler of all time being Hogan, guys who had the most success with taking wrestling national being Vince Mcmahon and Ted Turner. Most of us here aren’t interested in questioning that history. We’re doing aesthetic criticism…watch a bunch of matches and criticize aesthetics of them. That’s not historical revisionism.

 

There’s an interesting post on toa that jdw wrote in reflection on Misawa’s death:

 

It's odd to think back to late 1993.

 

Misawa was a year into his first reign with the Triple Crown, and not really thought of as The Man in hardcore fan circles yet. This was Kobashi's epic year in the ring, and you could see how people thought by his finishing 2nd in the WON Wrestler Of The Year award. The evolution of the champion, the person who would anchor All Japan with Jumbo gone, flew past on the radar, lost behind the work of another person in his promotion, even to a degree also the work of his rival (Kawada).

 

In New Japan, despite the complete failure of Muto's first IWGP reign to provide anything of interest to that point, there's are a noticable groan in hardcore circles when Shinya Hashimoto won the IWGP Title from him in September. Hash was the least thought of worker among the Three Musketeers, who inturn weren't thought of as highly as Hase. There wasn't much enthusiasm for the prospect of a Hash run on top, though most who followed it enough know that through Choshu's booking that at some point Hash would have a spin with the belt as would his other two rivals. This was "his turn".

 

There was a sense of "maybe we can just get through this stage and onto the guys we liked more". In the case of All Japan, it was Kobashi and Kawada. In the case of New Japan, Mutoh without the pain and Chono who was respected in hardcore circles. The hardcores who didn't study NJPW closely had hopes of Hase getting up there, but those really were delusions as they didn't see how Sasaki would eventually fit into the picture and that Hase's role would track Koshinaka's.

 

It's hard to pin point exactly when the views changed. It was clear by 1995 that it had.

 

There wasn't a great deal of enthusiasm for Mutoh winning the title back because Hash had opened eyes by then. In fact, no one really bought Mutoh as the top guy in New Japan until he beat Hash a second time, in a strong G1 Final in August. Then he sealed the deal against Takada, but oddly enough that moment passed quickly: he lost to Takada and it was Hash's role to restore New Japan honor. Then he ran off the longest IWGP run in history by the end of which not only did everyone think of his as The Man in New Japan, but a decade later the company has never been able to come up with someone to properly fill his shoes.

 

On All Japan, the title bounced from Doc to Kawada to Hansen before coming back to Misawa, who ran off a string of Budokan main events where you the night-and-day diffence between he and his peers in the promotion as The Champ was nakedly clear. The difference would still be there in 1996 and 1998 when others had the belt, and it always was clear that they were holding it until it went back to the rightful owners.

 

It's odd because so much of that 1994-97 period has not only forever shaped how we view that generation of wrestlers, but it's also almost obliterated how hardcore fans viewed the same wrestlers in the 1990-93 period and tried to project them forward. It's so strong that people coming along after that 1990-93 period, or those of us watching it now reflectively, tend to view it with that post-1994 perspective. It now seems so obvious that Misawa and Hash were going to be what they turned out to be. Less in the sense of the level of work that they reached when becoming The Man in their respective promotions. More in the sense that they were going to be the ones pushed by Baba and Choshu into those roles.

It's interesting to look at the history of how US puroresu watchers opinions evolved over decade. But the idea that you should watch 1993 New Japan with the same eyes as the US puroresu watchers of 1993 and not 1995 eyes or 2009 eyes is silly (not something that jdw is arguing). It's something that's worth thinking about while watching the wrestling tapes but not critical to understanding or appreciating them. Not watching them with US 1993 eyes isn't revisionism.

[anarchistxx]

Anarchristxxx very politely asked me that I stop making fun of him for being a Holocaust denier and thinking that blacks were a subhuman.

If you read what I actually said, it was that I held those views for a short time three years ago in my youth, and haven't mentioned them since because they are simply not what I think anymore. If you read the original threads it only started to get ridiculous with people trying to wind the likes of Woodoo up. The point was the discussion of that incident didn't belong on this particular forum, given the name. But this is besides the point of the arguments here...

 

In the Henry threads Anarchristxxx was a guy who regularly posted that Henry was rubbish and Booker T was worthless. At the same time he was regularly posting about blacks as a "species" being subhuman and incapable of culture, yadda yadda.

Not true at all. The comments Bix made had nothing to do with me at all, I wasn't even posting on your board at that point. Any criticism's I have had of Mark Henry and Booker-T has been down to the fact I don't enjoy watching them work. I have made similar criticisms against numerous other guys at the time. If you can find any thread where I specifically put on those two guys unfairly, I'd like to see it.

 

I have seen a lot of praise for the Mania Taker v Michaels match. That praise hasn’t been about the moves in the match or the workrate. The praise has been that it was a very well scripted match between two professionals who are masters of conveying emotions through physicality, who know how to captivate your attention through their facial expressions which stay in character for whole match as they never make you forget their reason for being in the world and in this match where they managed to create this epic match feel yadda yadda. These are the exact same criteria under which Show v Mayweather was praised.

Neither are anywhere near MOTY contenders.

[tomk]

QUOTE

Anarchristxxx very politely asked me that I stop making fun of him for being a Holocaust denier and thinking that blacks were a subhuman.

 

 

If you read what I actually said, it was that I held those views for a short time three years ago in my youth, and haven't mentioned them since because they are simply not what I think anymore.

That doesn't feel like an accurate description of our conversation (which I am trying to respect here). If you want me to publicly post the Pms I will do so. You raised your reaction to a thread from three + years ago, I think some context to that response was neccesary.

 

QUOTE

I have seen a lot of praise for the Mania Taker v Michaels match. That praise hasn’t been about the moves in the match or the workrate. The praise has been that it was a very well scripted match between two professionals who are masters of conveying emotions through physicality, who know how to captivate your attention through their facial expressions which stay in character for whole match as they never make you forget their reason for being in the world and in this match where they managed to create this epic match feel yadda yadda. These are the exact same criteria under which Show v Mayweather was praised.

 

 

Neither are anywhere near MOTY contenders.

You described one of them as being a novelty match and the other as being a sign that people appreciate Michaels good work. My point was they were both praised using the same criteria.

[Loss]

Getting this somewhat back on topic, the PG-13 vs Mikey Whipwreck/Spike Dudley match from ECW is the most fun I've had watching wrestling in a long time. PG-13 were great. There's gotta be more footage of them out there. They really seemed to wrestle like a 90s version of the Midnight Express.

[Guest Hail Sabin]

I agree the PG-13 vs. Mikey/Spike match is a ton of fun and I have been trying to find more matches of PG-13 but so far I haven't had any luck.

[Tim Evans]

PG13 vs RNR Express feud from 1995 was awesome. Especially the match from Night to Remember.

[tomk]

A couple years back remember watching a couple handhelds with the Whipwreck/Spike team v Can ams and being surprised by how much I enjoyed the face team. I imagine that when Spike wasn't working giant killer who sold like an acid casualty or stuck in Dudleys v Spike/ Balls(NEw Jack, whoever) clusterfucks he probably has a bunch of neat matches in his ECW run.

[smkelly]

Over the years I have watched from the side lines, never fraying into the huge debates, or "fights" at DVDVR, but I have observed a lot of conformity. If Phil says Mark Henry is the greatest wrestler right now, the flock will follow suit, especially if his Lieutenant's claim the same. I have never been one to fall into these...circles, per se, but many of the posters there do. I briefly mentioned this in my first column.

 

* Mark Henry. I liked him better in 1998-99 when he was strictly a comedic character. His matches leave a lot to be desired, talented big men like Vader and Hansen blow him out of the water. I prefer quality wrestling, something of which Henry is seemingly incapable of doing, yet his matches are drooled over because one of the musketeers deemed him worthy of praise.

 

* How can someone deny the holocaust? I guess they must also believe in moral relativism.

 

* I am a full fledged member of the anti-Michaels brigade. I do think he is a talented performer, albeit a horrid seller, well, exaggerated over-seller to be more precise. I believe what he did in 1997 was pretty shitty as well; and his retirement in 1998 was a way out of the business.