Bracket #2 QUARTERFINALS, Match #1

[Loss]

Vote for the wrestler that you think had the better career in WWE (whether you base that on impact or match quality is your decision), from 1985 to 2005. Voting will end tomorrow morning at the latest. Please give the wrestler's name first and any explanation thereafter. Thanks.

 

*Winner will face Mick Foley in next round.*

[Guest treble]

Owen

[Guest Mac]

Owen. His top 5 matches smoke anything Jericho has ever done in WWE.

 

Although you can't really put the blame on Jericho for that.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Owen Hart

 

Upon further review, I've found there's much more to Owen's post-'94 career than I initially remembered, including a feud with Michaels and a prominent role in the Hart Foundation angle. So consider this a makeup vote for the last round.

[Marty]

Chris Jericho

 

This was incredibly tough to call here, as both guys faced their share of political bullshit in many ways. What Owen put up with from 1997 to, arguably, his last day on the planet is fairly equivalent to what Jericho's had to deal with for much of his career. Both received their own cups of coffee with the main event with help from main eventers more interested in building stars than putting themselves over (Bret Hart and Rock). I'm going to give the edge to Jericho, because he reached the top title in the promotion almost on his own terms, his best match (versus Rock at NM2001) is better than Owen's best match, and, to use a comparison of opposition, Jericho's had better matches with HHH than Owen has and maybe even HBK (it's been a while since I've seen an Owen-HBK match). I almost went with Owen here, because Jericho never reached his full potential, whereas, under the circumstances, Owen moreless did, and at least when he was near the main event level, he shined. However, since both careers almost parallel each other, I'll go with the guy who has the slight edge in accomplishments and matches and, to some extent, overall presence.

[Resident Evil]

Chris Jericho

[Loss]

Chris Jericho

 

This was the toughest call I've probably made in the entire tournament so far, so I want to explain myself. Both had talent, although to compare Jericho at his best as a worker to Owen at his best as a worker is ludicrious. Owen was far better. However, I wanted to make some legitimate comparisons. Jericho made it higher on the card, but Owen had a better run when he was there. Neither was taken seriously as a top guy. In Owen's case, it was because he wasn't the type of guy you'd have carry the company. In Jericho's case, it was because he was misused.

 

There was a wave of fan support for Jericho to reach the top level and stay there. Owen never had that. His feud with Bret is beautiful, one of my favorite things the company ever did, but it took a lot of pushing and good booking to get Owen to be taken seriously at that level. Also, if you compare their top matches, it's not as much of a gap as you might think. These are in no particular order.

 

Owen's top singles PPV matches:

1 - v Bret Hart, Wrestlemania X

2 - v Bret Hart, Summerslam '94

3 - v Shawn Michaels, IYH 6

4 - v Mr. Perfect, Wrestlemania V

 

I went through the PPV histories at a results site and couldn't find any other standout matches he's had on PPV.

 

Jericho's top singles PPV matches:

1 - v The Rock - No Mercy 2001

2 - v The Rock - Vengeance 2001

3 - v HHH - Fully Loaded 2000

4 - v Chris Benoit - Backlash 2000

5 - v Chris Benoit - Royal Rumble 2001

 

That doesn't even get into these matches:

 

* Jericho v Chris Benoit - Judgment Day 2000

* Jericho v Chris Benoit - Summerslam 2000 2/3 falls

* Jericho v Chris Benoit v Eddy Guerrero v X-Pac - No Way Out 2001

* Jericho v Rob Van Dam - Unforgiven 2001

* Jericho v The Rock - Royal Rumble 2002

* Jericho v HHH - Wrestlemania X-8

* Jericho v HHH - Judgment Day 2002 (Hell in the Cell)

* Jericho v Rob Van Dam - King of the Ring 2002

* Jericho going the distance in the '03 Royal Rumble

* Jericho v Jeff Hardy - No Way Out 2003

* Jericho v HBK - Wrestlemania XIX

* Jericho v Goldberg - Badd Blood 2003

* Jericho v Christian - Wrestlemania XX

* Jericho v Christian - Unforgiven 2004 (Ladder Match)

* Jericho v Shelton Benjamin - Backlash 2005

 

Jericho has the edge there.

 

Okay, now let's look at tags, which is a little more competitive.

 

Owen's best tags/multi-person matches on PPV:

* w/Bret v Quebecers - Royal Rumble 1994

* 8-man elimination - Survivor Series 1996

* w/DBS v Furnas/Lafon - IYH Final Four

* 10-man tag - Canadian Stampede 1997

 

Jericho's best tags/multi-person matches on PPV:

* v Benoit v Angle - WM 2000

* v Benoit v Eddy v X-Pac - No Way Out 2001

* 10-man elimination - Survivor Series 2001

* w/Christian v Booker/Goldust - No Mercy 2002

* Elimination Chamber - Survivor Series 2002

* Money In The Bank - WM XXI

 

Jericho smokes Owen in number of good TV matches, although Owen's best TV match (DBS, 03/03/97) is probably better than Jericho's best TV match (which could be any variety of things). Still, it's close there.

 

Jericho wore the championship, which Owen did not. Jericho is far better on interviews and has more charisma. Jericho has headlined more shows. He's my pick.

[goodhelmet]

This is a little more difficult but I feel I should examione Loss's awesome write-up just to see he is calling it straight...

 

Best Matches: I don't think these have to be separated between PPV, tag, and TV matches.

 

 

Owen:

1. Owen v. Davey Boy Smith- This is one of those matches that really makes me miss Owen... and Davey for that matter. Everything is so fluid. The peaks and valleys are amazing and everything was executed to near perfection. There is also the angle that serves as a backdrop where the tag partners were disintegrating.

 

Jericho

1. Jericho v. Rock- An absolute magical moment. Jericho had overcome so much throughout his career and even the overbooked parts were done well with his Jericho's history with Steph being at the forefront. The announcers played up the tradition of St. Louis wrestling and the importance of the title and the wrestlers played their part to near-perfection.

 

 

---For me, this is a tie. I can't think of anything from either match that makes it stand out as being better than the other.

 

 

Jericho

Supporting matches: This is where I sort of disagree with Loss. I don't think many of those matches he listed for consideration are very good. They may have been better than most of the matches on the card they were on but they weren't very good when held to a higher standard. Some examples of matches that were not up to snuff...

 

The HHH Last Man Standing match may be Jericho's best moment. HE carried Trips to a very good match esp. since Trips was using smoke and mirrors that year to convince everyone he was a great wrestler and many believed him. This match is also an example of what was wrong with the company at the time. Three old guard v. new gaurd matches. Three old guard victories.

 

The 2 Benoit matches were wierd. I liked the submission match much better tha nthe 2/3 falls. THe 2/3 falls had great action but was way too rushed. It is the Cliffs Notes version of the match they should have had. The ladder match they would have later was ok but these two don't need a gimmick. LEt 'em wrestle!

 

The RVD match was really good when considering who Jericho had to carry. RVD even sells more than he ever has before on a more consistent basis.

 

The Rock match from Rumble was pretty disappointing compared ot hte St. Louis match. I didn't think the Jeff Hardy match, the HHH matches (esp. the HEll in a Cell *Barf) or the Christian matches were good at all. I don't blame that on Jericho since those other guys aren't very good wrestlers but these matches are more like examples of the matches we settle for because the best matches were long ago.

 

 

Owen Hart

Owen v. Perfect from Mania is NOT a good match. It was a squah and a pretty quick one at that. It is remembered fondly because Owen was doing flips and reversals no one had probably seen before. I watched it awhile back and was disappointed.

 

Owen v. Bret

The WM X match doesn't hold up compared to all of the other wrestling matches I have seen since then but when I first saw it, I was convinced this was a ***** classic. Owen does his heel shtick. They execute their moves perfectly. The drama was tense and the ending was a surprise even for me... even after I knew what happened. Owen's reaction after the match and to end the show was great. This is a very good match.

 

The Summerslam cage match is not one of my favorites. In fact, I was bored with it most of the way. I don't fault the wrestlers but I don't absolve them of all blame either.

 

-Owen v. HBK While it lasted this was really a good match but criminally short. Playing off the deadly effects of the enziguiri was the smart way to go.

 

A match Loss overlooked when talking about Owen's tags (I know you were only counting PPV matches)...

 

Owen & Davey Boy v. Austin & HBK- This smokes any Jericho TV match I have seen. It also smokes any tag match I have seen Jericho in. It is also great to see Owen & Bulldog look on at HBK & Austin as reluctant partners, when just a few months earlier, they were the partners with dissent.

 

Owen v. Vader- This was a really fun big man v. little man match. I just picked up One Night Only (in perfect DVD quality) from my main man, Nik Johns and I think this match deserves more credit than the criminally overrated Bazer v. Perfect.

 

Owen v. Bret Ironman match- This match is really like two matches in one. The first half is the stalling and stooging and restolds that Ironman and Broadway matches are rightfully criticized for. The second half is really a nice story of the brothers trying to setup the Sharpshooter with Owen cheating and conniving in convincing heel fashion. I think if they would have done this on PPV, it would have come of much better.

 

Owen v. Austin- The Summerslam '97 match is a wierd match to watch. In some ways, it is the creation of the entire Attitude era. In others, it is the worst business-exposing match ever played. It was a great match until the end and a warning to kids everywhere not to attempt a piledriver. It was also the reason Owen was never able to elevate to the next level, the reason Austin had to change his wrestling style, the storylinedrive for the McMahon-Austin feud. This was a huge moment... maybe the biggest in the modern-era.

 

---There are alot of Owen matchups on the TV I recieved from Some Guy that look intriguing. I can't really comment on most of them since Ionly breezed through them. They include...

 

8-12-96: HBK/Owen

8-19-96: Owen/Davey Boy

11-11-96: Owen and Davey Boy/HBK and Sid

Bret vs. Owen ? 11/25/96

Owen vs. Foley ? 1/6/97

Owen and Davey Boy vs. Furans and Lafon (WWF Tag Titles) ? 1/20/97

Owen and Davey Boy vs. Furans and Lafon (WWF Tag Titles) ? 2/3/97

 

Owen vs. Davey, Bret reforms the Hart Foundation ? 3/31/97 (Bret interrupted and told them to stop fighting in what was becoming a great match. However, this did lead to a great angle and feud that I will get to when I mention feuds. )

 

Owen vs. Rocky (WWF IC Championship) ? 4/28/97 (I haven;t seen this match and would be interested to see the crowd reaction and how Owen carries the green Rock)

 

Owen vs. Goldust vs. HHH (WWF IC Title) - 6/23/97

 

Austin and Foley vs. Owen and Davey Boy - 7/14/97 (This was turning into a great handicap match until the Foley screwiness overcame it. Add to the fact the finish was apbupt and Foley was sloppy and you have a disappointing match)

 

Owen vs. Patriot ? 9/5/97

Owen vs. Goldust - 9/8/97

Owen vs. Patriot - 9/15/97

Owen vs. Pillman and Austin stuns Vince ? 9/22/97 (Pillman's last Raw match)

HBK vs. Owen ? 10/20/97

HBK vs. Owen (HBK's last Raw match before 2002) ? 12/29/97

Owen vs. HHH (Goldust) (WWF European Title) ? 1/26/98

Owen vs. Jeff Jarrett ? 2/21/98

Rock vs. Owen ? 4/6/98

Owen vs. Scorpio ? 6/8/98

Now, don;t get me wrong. I am not saying these matches are great or even good. Many of them may be there only to drive an angle or a run-in. Some may flat-out suck I don't know. I think, however, that Jericho has the benefit of having the internet to preserve his good matches while Owen has to rely on Scott Keith

--Eventually, we will go through these matches in search of the hidden gem. I am especially interested in the 1996 matches, because lets face it, not too many people were watching Raw in 1996.

 

Still, the potential is there.

 

 

Feuds

 

Jericho- His biggest feuds were with HHH and The Rock. The series of matches with Benoit were pretty good also. I think this is sad because Jericho could have an extended Eddie feud if they were ever on the same brand. HE has never been in the position to feud with Taker to evaluate his potential of carrying Taker to a good match.

 

The HHH feud is a mess. What turned out to be one of the most promosing rivalries ever turned into heartbreak after heartbreak. I have no problem with his match at Mania. I have a problem with the buildup. I thought the TV phantom title match was built up great but the Dusty finish sucked. The Last MAn Standing match could have been JEricho's chance to become as mainstream as Austin/Rock but none of the new guys (Angle, Jericho, Benoit) were allowed to go over that night. The Hell in a Cell was a joke. Jericho should have won that and been seen as a live threat. Everyone and their mother knew that was Jericho's time.

 

The Rock feud could have been one of the best feuds of all-time. Unfortunately, even this feud wasn't all it shold have been. The Rumble match was ok. The No Mercy match was great. The Vengeance match was good. I never thought they continued this the way they should have. These two should have had ironman matches, ladder matches, cage matches, stip matches, everything. It was that good.... but the NWo angle and HHH's return overcame it all.

 

--We've already established that Jericho and Asutin have never had a great match together, although the tag match with the Power Trip v. The Candians is prasied, and that is a knock against both guys. Theese two should have blown off the roof. Instead, they fizzled.

 

 

 

Owen Hart

---His feud with Bret Hart was one of the top 2 or 3 feuds ever produced by the Fed. The buildup was done correctly, the elevation of Owen was handled great, it blended in with the Backlund feud seamlessly, and even hadan eventual payoff. It was so strong of a feud that Bret reforming the Hart Foundation was a bigger deal because of their history together.

 

---His series of matches with Davey Boy. This may or may not be in the "feuds that could be great" category. The tag team partners in dissent story was pretty well played out on TV. It produced one of the better matches to ever come along on free TV. You could turn to these guys to support the midcard when the only thing you had was a decent main event matchup in most instances.

 

--The Hart Foundation angle. Overall, this was one of the best periods of wpisodic TV ever. The backdrop of it being a shoot/work only enhanced its appeal.

 

---The Ken Shamrock feud. I give Owen credt for something not many other people were able to do... get watchable matches out of Ken Shamrock. The blurred MMA/Werestling matches had their appeal and Owen even seemed like a legit threat after that. Not great matches by any means but the best I have seen out of Shamrock.

 

 

 

Politics Both were victims of politics, no doubt.

 

 

Jericho- Could have been the next big thing. His reception into the company was huge. He verbally battled with the Rock and anyone else who wantewd to throw down on the mic. Then, he couldn't "work". He was too "sloppy". Stuck in midcard hell, he finally ascended to the op, in part thanks to the Rock, but also at a very key time in the company... when HHH was out. If Trips was still healthy, I don;t think Jericho would ever become champ. Trips had so little respect for him, he gave Jericho nothing in their feud. This is what bothers me when giving Jericho the edge here. Jericho was lucky that Trips was injured when he had his shot. If not, he would have been stuck in more crappy X-Pac feuds... or worse.

 

Owen- Owen had a double edged sword against him. Shawn refused to work with him because of Survivor Series and Austin never forgave Owen after Summerslam. They just happened to be the guys carrying the company from late '97 through 99. Owen was a victim of politics and a blood feud with Shawn would have been ideal in order to capitalize on Montreal. Instead, he got to put over HHH. YAY!. I am not saying Owen would have ever been world champ, but if not for the Austin neckbreaking incident, it is very possible, he could have had an extended feud with Austin during Austin's peak and we culd be calling Owen former world champ... even if just or a day.

 

 

Overall, as Loss veered to Jericho, I veered to Owen. I think Owen's best matches are better than Jericho's. I think his feuds were better and the Bret Hart one was the one that actually had a build, a peak and an end. I think that Owen had bigger obstacles in his way and that he didn't have the benefit of as much footage as Jricho or as fresh of memories from most involved here. Being world champ isn't really a valid reason to vote for someoen, or I could argue that TAker should win this tournament...

 

Owen Hart

 

 

EDIT: I also completely overlooked Owen's run as King of the Ring and this added another layer to the Bret feud.

[Guest KingPK]

Chris Jericho.

[Guest rob]

Owen Hart, because Chris Jericho hasn't done anything new in years. Owen never really got boring, as he continued reinventing his character ever so slightly on a regular basis.

[Coffey]

Chris Jericho

 

I have to be honest, I never really liked Owen. Hell, the Wrestlemania X match that a lot of people rave about, I found lackluster. I thought that the finish ruined it. Bret winning the title later on in the night, cemeted the fact, at least to me, that Owen would never be a main eventer.

 

Outside of that, everything I remember Owen for is bad. Excluding his death even. I disliked the Blue Blazer. I didn't like him teaming with Koko B. Ware. Him in the Nation of Domination was retarded. When he was in the Hart Foundation, he was outshined by other people like Bret & Pillman.

 

Hell, he didn't even really have his own finisher. He started using the Sharpshooter after Bret got it over.

 

I think my favorite thing that Owen ever did was when he ran around with the Slammy Awards like they meant something. That was comedy. His title reign with Yoko, not comedy.

 

Chris Jericho, on the other hand, hasn't really done a whole lot in WWE. Most of his shit that I enjoyed was in WCW when he was a cruiserweight. He did some stuff in WWF when he first showed up. I loved his debut. It just all started going downhill from there.

 

The Walls of Jericho has continually got worse over the years. I think the best one applied in WWE was one that he did on skinny, broomstick Stacy.

 

I did really like Jericho's promo on The Rock when he won the Undisputed Title. I liked some of his tag matches with Benoit too. His Royal Rumble ladder match with Benoit also stands out to me.

 

To be honest, I wish neither of these men had made it this far. They did, however, so I'm going with Jericho.

[Guest Some Guy]

I am especially interested in the 1996 matches, because lets face it, not too many people were watching Raw in 1996.

I was.

 

Owen.

 

GH sold me.

[Loss]

I liked Nitro better, but I don't think I saw a single commercial in 1996, for what it's worth. And I always watched Superstars, and back then, they'd have the occasional markee matchup.

[Guest Some Guy]

Superstars by-and-large sucked, although Perfect on commentary with JR ruled all. Raw was were it was at! Warrior! Fake Razor and Diesel! Sid! Smoking Gunns (who broke up on Superstars)! TL Hopper! The Goon! Who! Raw in 96 was a veritable "who's who" list in the annals of wrestling history. Who wanted to see the nWo revolutionize the business along with Rey, Eddy, and Benoit when you could watch that wide array of talent that Vince was sporting every Monday night?

 

Actually the main reason I consider HBK to be a TV draw in any way was because he was basically the only reason I watched and taped Raw in '96. I would either tape Nitro and watch it later or watch the replay.

[Loss]

Jericho

Supporting matches: This is where I sort of disagree with Loss. I don't think many of those matches he listed for consideration are very good. They may have been better than most of the matches on the card they were on but they weren't very good when held to a higher standard. Some examples of matches that were not up to snuff...

I agree with that, but since this is a WWF tournament, the fact that he's had the best match on so many shows since debuting with the company does work in his favor, even if the match itself doesn't even hit ***. If he was competing internationally, it would be another case altogether.

 

The 2 Benoit matches were wierd. I liked the submission match much better tha nthe 2/3 falls. THe 2/3 falls had great action but was way too rushed. It is the Cliffs Notes version of the match they should have had. The ladder match they would have later was ok but these two don't need a gimmick. LEt 'em wrestle!

100% in agreement. B & J did pretty good with what they had to work with though.

 

The Rock match from Rumble was pretty disappointing compared ot hte St. Louis match. I didn't think the Jeff Hardy match, the HHH matches (esp. the HEll in a Cell *Barf) or the Christian matches were good at all.

While they weren't good, there are some points to consider there.

 

(1) Unless you like the Summerslam streetfight with Michaels (and I don't), Jericho carried HHH to the best match he had that year in HIAC.

 

(2) Jericho carried Jeff Hardy to the best match he had period after 2001.

 

(3) Jericho carried Christian to the best singles matches of his career.

 

This brings up another point. How did Owen do when he was against slugs like Diesel, Yokozuna or Lex Luger? Jericho managed to carry Hulk Hogan to his best matches in years, carried Kane to his best singles match ever, carried Scott Steiner to his best match in WWE, carried Kevin Nash to his best non-gimmicked match after returning and carried Viscera to the best match of his career. I'm sure there are cases of Owen making guys look better than they really are, but I don't know of any specifically.

 

I don't blame that on Jericho since those other guys aren't very good wrestlers but these matches are more like examples of the matches we settle for because the best matches were long ago.

I agree with that. Jericho still had better matches with those guys than anyone else could at the time. I'd vote for Benoit or Eddy if they were against Jericho though, just because I know Jericho couldn't have gotten the JD match out of JBL under any circumstances.

 

Owen match talk

I agree on those. I think they strengthen the case for Jericho.

 

A match Loss overlooked when talking about Owen's tags (I know you were only counting PPV matches)...

 

Owen & Davey Boy v. Austin & HBK- This smokes any Jericho TV match I have seen. It also smokes any tag match I have seen Jericho in. It is also great to see Owen & Bulldog look on at HBK & Austin as reluctant partners, when just a few months earlier, they were the partners with dissent.

GREAT MATCH! The best comparison to this would be the tag match where HHH tore his quad, and this is far better, although many may not see it that way. What do you think of that match, by the way? I've never heard you say much about it.

 

Owen v. Vader- This was a really fun big man v. little man match. I just picked up One Night Only (in perfect DVD quality) from my main man, Nik Johns and I think this match deserves more credit than the criminally overrated Bazer v. Perfect.

Agreed that this is a very good match.

 

Owen v. Bret Ironman match- This match is really like two matches in one. The first half is the stalling and stooging and restolds that Ironman and Broadway matches are rightfully criticized for. The second half is really a nice story of the brothers trying to setup the Sharpshooter with Owen cheating and conniving in convincing heel fashion. I think if they would have done this on PPV, it would have come of much better.

It probably would have. I don't know that it was better than Bret/Shawn at Wrestlemania XII, though. That match was boring much of the time as well, but they were at least wrestling instead of stalling.

 

Owen v. Austin- The Summerslam '97 match is a wierd match to watch. In some ways, it is the creation of the entire Attitude era. In others, it is the worst business-exposing match ever played. It was a great match until the end and a warning to kids everywhere not to attempt a piledriver. It was also the reason Owen was never able to elevate to the next level, the reason Austin had to change his wrestling style, the storylinedrive for the McMahon-Austin feud. This was a huge moment... maybe the biggest in the modern-era.

Absolutely. That match was on its way to being one of the best of the year before the accident.

 

---There are alot of Owen matchups on the TV I recieved from Some Guy that look intriguing. I can't really comment on most of them since  Ionly breezed through them. They include...

 

8-12-96: HBK/Owen

8-19-96: Owen/Davey Boy

11-11-96: Owen and Davey Boy/HBK and Sid

Bret vs. Owen ? 11/25/96

Owen vs. Foley ? 1/6/97

Owen and Davey Boy vs. Furans and Lafon (WWF Tag Titles) ? 1/20/97

Owen and Davey Boy vs. Furans and Lafon (WWF Tag Titles) ? 2/3/97

 

Owen vs. Davey, Bret reforms the Hart Foundation ? 3/31/97 (Bret interrupted and told them to stop fighting in what was becoming a great match. However, this did lead to a great angle and feud that I will get to when I mention feuds. )

The only ones I've seen out of those are the Furnas and Lafon tags, which I like a lot.

 

Owen vs. Rocky (WWF IC Championship) ? 4/28/97 (I haven;t seen this match and would be interested to see the crowd reaction and how Owen carries the green Rock)

I don't remember it being much, but I haven't watched it in a good while.

 

Now, don;t get me wrong. I am not saying these matches are great or even good. Many of them may be there only to drive an angle or a run-in. Some may flat-out suck I don't know. I think, however, that Jericho has the benefit of having the internet to preserve his good matches while Owen has to rely on Scott Keith

Dave Meltzer was preserving them back then too. I hate trotting him out, but here are his star ratings for Owen from 1994-1998.

 

1994:

01/23/94 - Bret/Owen v Quebecers ***1/4 (Rumble)

03/20/94 - Owen v Bret ****3/4 (WM X)

06/19/94 - Owen v Tatanka ***3/4 (KOTR)

06/19/94 - Owen v 1-2-3 Kid ***1/4 (KOTR)

08/15/94 - Owen v 1-2-3 Kid ***1/2 (RAW)

08/29/94 - Owen v Bret ***** (Summerslam)

10/23/94 - Owen v Bret *** (Action Zone)

 

I haven't seen KOTR '94 in forever, but the Tatanka match may be a good carry job. Has anyone here seen it that can verify that or shoot it down?

 

1995:

01/09/95 - Owen v Ramon ***3/4 (RAW)

03/25/95 - Owen v Bret ***1/2 (RAW)

09/25/95 - Owen/Yoko v Gunns ***1/4 (RAW)

11/19/95 - Wild card tag ***1/2 (Survivor Series)

11/20/95 - Owen v HBK ***3/4 (RAW)

 

1996:

02/18/96 - Owen v HBK **** (IYH 6)

07/21/96 - 6-man tag ***3/4 (International Incident)

11/17/96 - Elimination match ***1/4 (Survivor Series)

 

1997:

01/20/97 - Owen/DBS v Furnas/LaFon ***1/2 (RAW)

02/16/97 - Owen/DBS v Furnas/LaFon ***1/4 (Final Four)

02/17/97 - Owen v Flash Funk *** (RAW)

03/01/97 - Owen v DBS ****1/2 (RAW)

05/26/97 - Owen/DBS v Michaels/Austin ****1/4 (RAW)

07/06/97 - 10-man tag ****1/4 (Canadian Stampede)

07/14/97 - Owen/DBS v Austin/Love ***1/4 (RAW)

10/20/97 - Owen v HBK *** (RAW)

12/29/97 - Owen v HBK ***1/2 (RAW)

 

1998:

02/15/98 - 8-man tag ***1/2 (No Way Out)

03/29/98 - Owen v HHH *** (WM XIV)

06/01/98 - Owen/Rock/D-Lo v DX ***1/4 (RAW)

07/13/98 - Owen/Rock v HHH/X-Pac *** (RAW)

07/26/98 - Owen v Shamrock *** (Fully Loaded)

08/30/98 - Owen v Shamrock ***1/2 (Summerslam)

 

I guess take the ones you have seen and figure out where you stand on those, and you'll probably know how the ones you haven't seen most likely compare. That's admittedly a last resort, but I just thought it would be interesting to post it.

 

Feuds

 

Jericho- His biggest feuds were with HHH and The Rock. The series of matches with Benoit were pretty good also. I think this is sad because Jericho could have an extended Eddie feud if they were ever on the same brand. HE has never been in the position to feud with Taker to evaluate his potential of carrying Taker to a good match.

I'd probably say Owen/Taker would be better than Jericho/Taker. I'll give you that.

 

The HHH feud is a mess. What turned out to be one of the most promosing rivalries ever turned into heartbreak after heartbreak. I have no problem with his match at Mania. I have a problem with the buildup. I thought the TV phantom title match was built up great but the Dusty finish sucked. The Last MAn Standing match could have been JEricho's chance to become as mainstream as Austin/Rock but none of the new guys (Angle, Jericho, Benoit) were allowed to go over that night. The Hell in a Cell was a joke. Jericho should have won that and been seen as a live threat. Everyone and their mother knew that was Jericho's time.

Indeed. Without HHH around, Jericho probably would have met his full potential.

 

The Rock feud could have been one of the best feuds of all-time. Unfortunately, even this feud wasn't all it shold have been. The Rumble match was ok. The No Mercy match was great. The Vengeance match was good. I never thought they continued this the way they should have. These two should have had ironman matches, ladder matches, cage matches, stip matches, everything. It was that good.... but the NWo angle and HHH's return overcame it all.

Wholeheartedly agreed. Those two in an Ironman would have been awesome. That feud was still going strong after three months in a time when most feuds lasted three weeks. They could have conceivably run with it for a year.

 

--We've already established that Jericho and Asutin have never had a great match together, although the tag match with the Power Trip v. The Candians is prasied, and that is a knock against both guys. Theese two should have blown off the roof. Instead, they fizzled.

Agreed. I credit that to Austin giving Jericho no offense and insisting on calling the match. But yes, the end result is the same.

 

Owen Hart

---His feud with Bret Hart was one of the top 2 or 3 feuds ever produced by the Fed. The buildup was done correctly, the elevation of Owen was handled great, it blended in with the Backlund feud seamlessly, and even hadan eventual payoff. It was so strong of a feud that Bret reforming the Hart Foundation was a bigger deal because of their history together.

 

---His series of matches with Davey Boy. This may or may not be in the "feuds that could be great" category. The tag team partners in dissent story was pretty well played out on TV.  It produced one of the better matches to ever come along on free TV. You could turn to these guys to support the midcard when the only thing you had was a decent main event matchup in most instances.

 

--The Hart Foundation angle. Overall, this was one of the best periods of wpisodic TV ever. The backdrop of it being a shoot/work only enhanced its appeal.

 

---The Ken Shamrock feud. I give Owen credt for something not many other people were able to do... get watchable matches out of Ken Shamrock. The blurred MMA/Werestling matches had their appeal and Owen even seemed like a legit threat after that. Not great matches by any means but the best I have seen out of Shamrock.

I agree with everything said here.

 

Politics Both were victims of politics, no doubt.

 

 

Jericho- Could have been the next big thing. His reception into the company was huge. He verbally battled with the Rock and anyone else who wantewd to throw down on the mic. Then, he couldn't "work". He was too "sloppy". Stuck in midcard hell, he finally ascended to the op, in part thanks to the Rock, but also at a very key time in the company... when HHH was out. If Trips was still healthy, I don;t think Jericho would ever become champ. Trips had so little respect for him, he gave Jericho nothing in their feud. This is what bothers me when giving Jericho the edge here. Jericho was lucky that Trips was injured when he had his shot. If not, he would have been stuck in more crappy X-Pac feuds... or worse.

Considering that I've heard unconfirmed stuff that if HHH was better before the inVasion was over, he was going to go into his own faction *by himself* against both sides, yeah, you're probably right. If HHH tore his quad again, Jericho'd probably fare better again, at least temporarily.

 

Owen- Owen had a double edged sword against him. Shawn refused to work with him because of Survivor Series and Austin never forgave Owen after Summerslam. They just happened to be the guys carrying the company from late '97 through 99. Owen was a victim of politics and a blood feud with Shawn would have been ideal in order to capitalize on Montreal. Instead, he got to put over HHH. YAY!. I am not saying Owen would have ever been world champ, but if not for the Austin neckbreaking incident, it is very possible, he could have had an extended feud with Austin during Austin's peak and we culd be calling Owen former world champ... even if just or a day.

HHH's push has always been ridiculous, but in 1998, it was probably even worse, and considering that he was better at getting under people's skin then than he is now as a heel, it was even more frustrating.

 

Overall, as Loss veered to Jericho, I veered to Owen. I think Owen's best matches are better than Jericho's. I think his feuds were better and the Bret Hart one was the one that actually had a build, a peak and an end. I think that Owen had bigger obstacles in his way and that he didn't have the benefit of as much footage as Jricho or as fresh of memories from most involved here. Being world champ isn't really a valid reason to vote for someoen, or I could argue that TAker should win this tournament...

Fair enough. I'm going to stick with Jericho, but you presented a great argument in your favor.

[Guest Alfdogg]

Chris Jericho

[goodhelmet]

I agree with that, but since this is a WWF tournament, the fact that he's had the best match on so many shows since debuting with the company does work in his favor, even if the match itself doesn't even hit ***. If he was competing internationally, it would be another case altogether.

I think it would only work in his favor if the tournament was exclusive to the Jericho era. When compared to the work of other guys from other eras, which we are doing, it isn't as strong.

 

(1) Unless you like the Summerslam streetfight with Michaels (and I don't), Jericho carried HHH to the best match he had that year in HIAC.

 

(2) Jericho carried Jeff Hardy to the best match he had period after 2001.

 

(3) Jericho carried Christian to the best singles matches of his career.

Fair enough but none of them were actually good matches. They were better than the crap surrounding them and I think that is a bad point to emphasize. That would be like Meltzer giving a match from 2003 **** because it can't be compared to a **** match from 1995 that is actually better. That is a bad way to view things and I think we already agree on that in principle.

 

This brings up another point. How did Owen do when he was against slugs like Diesel, Yokozuna or Lex Luger?

I have no idea.

 

carried Scott Steiner to his best match in WWE

OH Crap, I completely forgot about one of Owen's best matches that I don't know if either of us mentioned...

 

The Hart Bros. vs. the Steiner Bros.

 

This tag also blows away any of Jericho's tag matches.

 

 

Referring to Owen Match Talk...

I agree on those. I think they strengthen the case for Jericho.

How so?

 

GREAT MATCH! The best comparison to this would be the tag match where HHH tore his quad, and this is far better, although many may not see it that way. What do you think of that match, by the way? I've never heard you say much about it.

I don't mention it much because I don't really care for it. I think the moment was great. I liked the way they built it up to the Canadians realizing their dreams. I liked the promos before hand. Toward the end of the match, it was realspotty and SE~! crap whereas the middle ahd some nice FIP parts.

 

It probably would have. I don't know that it was better than Bret/Shawn at Wrestlemania XII, though. That match was boring much of the time as well, but they were at least wrestling instead of stalling.

I enjoy it more because whether stalling or "wrestling", both were killing time. Plus, I find heel Owen antics better than HBK's loose headlock. Plus, the Owen-Bret match had more action in the end, rather a longer time of sustained action.

 

Meltz Ratings

If you agree with Meltz's ratings or even repsect them, I think this strengthens Owen's argument as you see good-great matches that might not have been mentioned otherwise by you or me. At the very least, it allows us to examine a bigger body of Owen's work.

 

 

 

Fair enough. I'm going to stick with Jericho, but you presented a great argument in your favor.

Thanks! But I am going to stick with Owen

 

Actually, this is one of the few matchups where either one would be a-ok. I just wish people would elaborate more on why they are going with one side or the other.

[Loss]

Right. I'm certainly never going to argue much with anyone who votes for Owen Hart in anything WWE-related. If Owen wins this one, I'll be happy with that as well. I just wish this *match* could have happened at some point.

[MyOwnSummer]

Owen

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

Chris Jericho

 

After Loss and goodhelmet have verbally beaten each other senseless, I'm taking advantage like all good sneaky heels, and I'll just say I agree with the case Loss made for Jericho.

[Mad Dog]

Chris Jericho,

 

I have a hard time thinking Owen had a good career when it ultimately lead to his death.

[Ray]

Owen Hart

 

Better wrestler. Jericho might win if you count good matches, but he worked in an era where long, PPV-quality TV matches were common. Owen's best WWF match (Mania 10) is better than Jericho's, and it's my pick for best WWF match ever.

[Guest teke184]

Chris Jericho