The Thread Killer

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that. Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match. Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit. I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should. When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys. Now, I rate the four totally different. In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture. I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW. And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH. Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

I'm not advocating democracy. I'm fine with you and Will turning PWO into a brutal dictatorship. I, for one, would welcome our new overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a loyal, long time member here, I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.

Um...what? GWE equivalent of Vince taking wrestling from smoke-filled venues to what it is today. My thought process was: "How could anybody have ever seen even a handful of Japanese Main Events and not seen a match with Kobashi?" Unless Kobashi is still too stoic with not enough intensity and facial expressions. That is one of the main knocks against him.

Not going to happen. Yea number of posts is a silly metric but a list of people who were only active in the discussions threads would be an interesting list. I've been a member at this board since the get-go, pretty much. I visit this board every single day, some times multiple times a day...and I'm pretty sure I read practically every nomination thread, or at least most of them. But I work a 4 day week of 12 hour shifts in my job, and it's not a job where I can get online much, if at all. I just don't have the time to get into prolonged discussions online on a regular basis. Sure I get days off, but I always have so much crammed in that I have to do when I'm not at work. But there were people for this project who made my ballot, or who got ranked higher (or in rare cases lower) based solely on discussions I read here. I did not actively "participate" in these threads aside from listening to the discussion and checking out recommendations. Are we back to the idea that my ballot might not have counted for as much because I didn't have time to discuss each nominee at length? Because after that it will be straight into the idea that my ballot shouldn't count because I don't like Joshi, or Lucha is not my favorite style...and next thing you know, you've got four guys left voting. There are a couple of guys on my ballot that I was upset to see place so low, in a couple of cases they didn't even break the Top 100. I wasn't happy, but I got it. I knew being a fan of FMW/ECW and not Joshi or Memphis was going to put my ballot at odds with other ballots. I'd like to think if challenged, I could defend my ballot. And now I really want to learn more about some of these guys, like the World of Sport guys, or Casas for example. But the way some people taking this so seriously that they are bitching about so many results, or that some people don't deserve to be on the list, or saying they aren't going to continue to follow the list, or they want to see the ballots broken down into different categories based on different criteria...kind of sucks all the fun out of this project.

Um...what?

I agree, when I scrolled down and saw his name there, I was legit shocked. I had him as my #7, and I'm not a New Japan guy. That ranking was purely based on footage I sought out based on the recommendations from other fans. (Recommendations of the "AJPW isn't the be all and end all, New Japan had some good stuff too, pull your head out of your ass and watch this match" variety.)

I agree with you, although I had them fairly close to each other. Shawn was a better tag worker (Rockers), Heel (DX), and babyface (just using 2008 as an example). I don't know if it's a fair comparison or not, but I'd rate Shawn's post-comeback over what we got out of the short-lived Bret in WCW era. Don't get me wrong, I think Bret was great, but I ranked Shawn higher. I don't think Shawn Michaels was a better heel than Bret. Bret was pretty awesome at playing a multi-dimensional heel during the whole "Canada vs. The U.S." deal. Michaels in DX just his tired old "too cool for school" routine. And as a face? Michaels came across as incredibly disingenuous. There was a reason people cheered for Sid when Sid turned on him.

Well let me tell you my friend, if you like Japanese women in one-piece bathing suits screaming, are you in for a treat.

You are right, it is striking, and probably not quite right. I personally didn't help by not voting for any women. I decided early in the process that I couldn't because I'm just not familiar enough with the style. I have tried watching Joshi several times, and although I've been impressed by the work, I've always found watching women beating each other in that manner a bit unsettling. For that reason I've just never stuck with it. I wonder how many people feel the same way as me, that they recognised that some women 'should' be on their list just didn't feel they had enough knowledge of the genre to rate them fairly. I agree with this sentiment. I had no women on my ballot. I have tried to watch Joshi several times over the years, and I have never really cared for it, honestly. In my case, it's not that I find it unsettling that it's women beating on each other, but for whatever reason it just doesn't draw me in, or connect with me. I can watch it and recognize the skill of the participants, but I have just never had any desire to follow Joshi or put any effort into watching a significant amount of it. I couldn't put any of the big names from that style on my list when I really don't have the knowledge of it, or the desire to learn more. Some people feel that way about FMW and garbage wrestling, some people don't like shoot style or lucha. I just never much cared for Joshi. I did put a lot of thought and research into my list, I read all the nomination threads for people whom I had seen and sought out footage for some of those whom I had not, or for those who I had not decided where to place...but I still don't have any women on my list. Then again, I didn't vote for Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, or even Tully Blanchard, either. So it's not like any of the people on the list today made it from my ballot at the expense of a woman that I could have voted for instead. I had Finlay but lower, and Harley Race but much higher.

I have a question... Michael Elgin is listed as a nominee in the nominee folder. His name does not appear on this list as having received zero votes. His name is also not listed on Woof's master list of the Honorable Mentions. He didn't appear in the first 50 votes of the Top 100, unless I missed it. Since there is no way he could have received enough votes to make the top 50, what happened to him? I only ask because if he did make the Top 50, I need to go and buy a bazooka, so I can shoot myself in the face.

I have a ton of shoot style stuff on VHS in a box in my crawl space, covered in dust. I've got UWF, UWF-I, Pancrase, KINGDOM and even the first bunch of U-Style shows in there. Problem is, I don't own a VCR and don't have the equipment or knowledge needed to transfer them over to DVD-R or avi or whatever. Or the time. That means if I want to watch any of my old shoot style stuff, I either have to buy a VCR and hook it up to my home theater just for that purpose, or put in all the time and effort and cost to convert all that stuff, or buy it all again which I can't afford. That's why if it's not posted online somewhere, I likely wasn't able to check it out for this project. I have so much wrestling on VHS it's ridiculous, I'm glad technology advanced, but it really hurt my wrestling viewing.

I actually read her autobiography, and in all fairness, by her own admission Chyna had a messed up life long before she got to the WWF. Even if she had never put on a pair of wrestling boots, she had a pretty big bag of hammers to carry around with her. Granted, what happened to her during and after her time in the WWF certainly didn't make things any better, and I'm pretty sure it made things a lot worse...but I don't think anybody can lay the emotional damage she suffered at the hands of Vince and Co. on this one.

Juvenile idiocy. Historical fascination, similar to Lemmy's collecting of Third Reich memorabilia. A hateful gang mentality they grew out of. Again, I'm not on their side. Just not comfortable with completely slating them as humans based on tattoos I don't know the story behind and backed up by no tales of bigotry in a business full of it. I can buy getting a racist tattoo that you later regret, fine. I once worked with somebody who did that, they were in a skinhead gang on the streets and whilst incarcerated. Once they got out they renounced their ways, and one of the first things they did was get the tattoo changed so it didn't look like the SS symbol anymore...they didn't display it with pride. As sek pointed out, one of the Harris Brothers was suspended from TNA for wearing a t-shirt with some sort of white power/Nazi slogan or saying on it, that is a fact. If that doesn't prove that the dude has issues, I don't know what does. And leave Lemmy out of this, dammit.

double post

Apparently I have "reached my positive quota of votes for the day"? Damn. The same thing happened to me when I tried to like El-P's post about Onita in the reactions thread. Who is this board to tell me when I've reached my positive quota for the day? Don't tell me how to feel, dammit.

It's unfortunate that this is not the forum for such a discussion, because this seems to be leading into a very interesting debate about mental health and the moral and legal responsibility of people with mental health issues, along with the responsibilities of the legal system when dealing with people with mental health issues. There are some excellent, well thought out posts with valid points being made on both sides of the argument here, which I'd love to continue...but unfortunately this is Pro Wrestling Only and I don't want to get too far off topic.

The funny thing about Onita is that pretty much all the guys coming after him and did garbage stuff totally ignored why Onita was so great at it and why he made a shitload of money : milking and selling. That's why watching the very early Onita FMW matches against martial artists is so revealing of what Onita is all about, because he basically worked the same way then : getting his ass beat, selling like a motherfucker, milking every comebacks like crazy. And then of course you got all the Onita mystic with the post-match crying and promo, which is insane even if you don't understand the language. But really, Onita wasn't about taking insane bump and bleeding like a stuck pig. Well, he was, but that's just a part of it. The main thing is that he milked and sold like a mofo. That's why he made shitload of money while all the garbage idiots (Abyss, looking at you) coming after just destroyed their body for basically nothing because all they got out of Onita was : taking bumps in barbwires. That was just a spectacular choice. Onita was like Takada, a master of epic spectacle. Excellent post. That really summarizes what was great about Onita, better than I ever could. I had Onita as my #20, and El-P's post does a great job of explaining why.

I must have missed the post in this thread where somebody said they loved Steve Austin. I also must have missed the post where Steve Austin's conduct was some how connected to Chris Benoit murdering his wife and child.

Exactly. For the record, if you read Larry Matysik's biography of Brody which is co-authored by Brody's wife Barbara, neither of them are even remotely critical of Carlos Colon or implicate him in any way for the murder. Quite the opposite, Barbara mentions how supportive Carlos Colon and his family were of her at the time. That book goes into more detail about those murders than anybody ever has before, including details from Barbara Goodish which had never been released before. If Brody's wife and Larry Matysik, (who was probably his closest friend in the industry) don't accuse Carlos Colon of being behind Brody's murder, seeing as they were closer to Brody and the situation than anybody? I'd wager the theories about Carlos Colon are a bunch of B.S.

You can't really be this obtuse, Jingus. Yes, Chris Benoit was the only person I considered when I decided not to rank Chris Benoit. I was going to consider Neil Armstrong, but it seemed somehow pointless. I keep saying why I won't rank Benoit, and you keep building strawmen. You seem obsessed with naming as many wrestlers (and now you've moved on to non-wrestling celebrities) who have done immoral or illegal things. You must think there is a certain number you'll get to, and I'll suddenly decide that Chris Benoit murdering his wife and child doesn't bother me so much, after all. You say you "just don't understand" the idea of disqualifying anyone for anything they did in their personal life. You say you don't see a point in drawing any line at all. I do understand the reason for disqualifying Chris Benoit from being considered the Greatest Wrestler Ever. I do see a point in drawing a line. And clearly, I am not the only person who feels that way. It's unfortunate that this bothers you. It bothers me (somewhat) that there are people who are going to rank him, but I understand that some people want to separate the wrestler from his actions outside the ring, so they can still enjoy his work, or as some sort of coping mechanism. To each their own, I suppose. If you honestly can't understand why somebody would not want to celebrate the accomplishments of a man who murdered his wife and child, then I don't know what to tell you. It just proves that you and I are very different people, but that is hardly news, I think.

I am curious about this as well. I think maybe the WWE Network might have helped The Hammer, since he appears to have worked hard and brought it pretty much every time he worked and thanks to the network there is a lot of footage with him out there now. His hard work and consistency is one of the reasons I voted for him

Hmmm. Somebody had Scorpio as their #1 pick? I never would have guessed that. I lost Kerry, Dusty and Garvin from my list today, but at least they all made the Top 100.

I'm not pretending it's ALL in the same ballpark. But I listed a dozen other wrestlers who have ended human lives, and I'm sure there are others whom I missed or who simply weren't caught. (Just from my personal circle of indy acquaintances: I know one convicted murderer, one bank robber, multiple statutory rapists, multiple domestic abusers, and countless drug dealers.) Yes, Benoit is probably the single worst example of a wrestler doing something hideous; but there's plenty of other examples of other guys doing incredibly evil, morally unforgivable things. Yet practically nobody seems to seriously suggest that we shouldn't vote for any of those other guys based on moral grounds. ... My point, which you have continually refused to acknowledge, is that Benoit is not the only crazy person in the history of wrestling. There have been other murderers, other maniacs, other criminals. Benoit's arguably the worst for the sheer monstrousness of his acts at the time of his death, sure. But there are others. And how do you measure that stuff? Take the example of Hardbody Harrison, who kept at least eight (probably more) women as literal slaves and perpetual rape victims, locked up in houses he owned for years. That is astonishingly evil. Is enslaving eight people that much less-evil than killing two people? How do you quantify it at all? I'm not making a single excuse for what Benoit did. I'm not on the "well, he was insane/concussed enough that we can't blame him" bandwagon. Right until his death, this guy kept performing a wide variety of complex tasks which indicate that his ability to comprehend the real world was largely intact. I'm simply saying that the wrestling business is so unbelievably full of sleazy shit that Benoit isn't as much of an unique outlier as many people like to portray him. As I said earlier, I personally know a wrestler who is now in prison for murder and a whole collection of other guys who've committed "lesser" crimes. The business is SO much scummier than most fans have any idea about. I refuse to acknowledge your "point" because you have no point that I can see...at least no decipherable one. I will not vote for Chris Benoit because he killed his wife and child, and I do not believe in giving credit, attention or respect to a person who killed his wife and child. You have brought up a plethora of names and cases, and reminded us repeatedly that we have no idea how scummy wrestling really is. You know a bunch of wrestlers who are criminals and bad people. Of course Hardbody Harrison is a scumbag. Of course Larry Sweeney's suicide was tragic. But that has literally nothing to do with my refusal to vote for Benoit as the Greatest Wrestler Ever. You're constructing a strawman argument and then getting upset when nobody buys into it, or if they tell you it makes no sense. If it makes you feel better, I will concede your point. Wrestling is a dirty business and it is full of dirty people, and you know a lot of them and none of us really have any idea how bad it really is. As part of conceding to your point, I am going to contact Grimmas and ask him to take Hardbody Harrison off my ballot as my #1 pick. Because you see, I had no idea that Chris Benoit wasn't the only bad person in wrestling. Oh dammit, I had Jimmy Snuka as #2, and Jose Gonzalez as #3. And look there at #4...Larry Sweeney. I'm not sure what his commiting suicide has to do with this argument, but you brought him up, so he'd better come off my ballot too. You say Chris Benoit was not as unique as people like to portray him. I say he is the only person who at one point in time might have had a serious chance of winning this vote, to then murder his wife and child, therefore eliminating him from contention in my eyes.

You have now been witness to "The Jingus Effect." Righteous indignation based on non-existent logic.

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons. Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence. Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder. I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child. There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode? I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness. I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.