The Thread Killer

Guys who make the company money have historically been the guys you build around in wrestling. You're obviously trying to be snarky and clever, implying that why wouldn't WWE build around them, because they sell merchandise, but there is a bigger picture. But I didn't say they make money, I said they sell merchandise. Selling T-shirts and plastic unicorn horns at the concession stands doesn't necessarily make them a team people want to see an entire division around, nor does it mean people would buy shows specifically to see them. Just because 25 or even 50% of the crowd chants that you rock while you play the trombone, doesn't mean you should be the #1 team in the company. Example, people were interested in Starrcade 86 because they wanted to see The Road Warriors throw Jim Cornette and The Midnight Express off a scaffold. People bought Vengeance or SummerSlam 2010 to see DX fight Vince and Shane. I believe if you go back and look at some of the bigger shows over the years when Tag Team Wrestling was still viable, that you will find compellingly booked Tag Team matches that were placed high enough on shows to be considered a legit reason why fans would want to see the show. I hate using this term because it so over-used, but I feel that properly booked, Tag Team wrestling has been and can be a "draw." I don't think A New Day can be, and I don't "get" A New Day because I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish. Clearly, they're supposed to be faces, but they do that ridiculous dance gyrating and thrusting their hips like Rick Rude...is that supposed to endear them to people? Xavier annoys the shit out of people playing the trombone during matches, channeling Jimmy Hart and his infamous Megaphone. And then of course...they cheat. At Extreme Rules, Kofi Kingston had to interfere when he wasn't even one of the two legal men on the team, and hit somebody with a foreign object in order for A New Day to retain the titles. Loss is absolutely right. The way they are booked, they are very hard to garner sympathy for by something traditional like an attack. When The Vaudevillians attacked them recently, it was funny, because A New Day were acting stupid, and they got their comeuppance for it. I shouldn't have watched that and wanted to cheer for The Vaudevillians, I assume. I should have felt bad for A New Day and wanted to see them get revenge after being attacked. This is all moot if Vince really is serious about totally doing away with heels and faces and having everybody be a tweener, or whatever. But even if he is serious about that, then it's really going to screw up a lot of the standard plot devices which have been used in Pro Wrestling since day one. And A New Day are a perfect example of that problem.

I know this is bumping an old thread, but it's my thread and it's the best place to talk about this...so I am. I have watched much more WWE content since I started this thread, and I still don't "get" A New Day and I still hate them with the fire of a million burning suns. Their existence is extra aggravating to me because for the first time in so long I can't even remember, WWE has an actual, viable Tag Team Division. When I was younger, the WWF had an outstanding Tag Team Division which was loaded with so many good teams. Strike Force, The Young Stallions, The Rougeaus, The Killer Bees, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, The Islanders, Demolition, The Bolsheviks, The Dream Team, The Rockers and The Powers of Pain all active at pretty much the same time. These were glorious days to be a fan of Tag Team Wrestling in the WWF. Then, for a long time, nothing happened. Now, things are finally starting to look up. Thanks to somebody deciding that it's time to bring back Tag Team Wrestling and thanks to NXT, we get Enzo and Big Cass, and The Vaudvillans and The Lucha Dragons (and there are still some great teams in NXT waiting to come up) plus we have The Dudleys and The Usos and Anderson and Gallows, and The Shining Stars and The Wyatt Family. (I really wish WWE would pull their heads out of their asses and sign The Briscoes, but that's another thread. Maybe War Machine too.) But...for some reason the team that WWE decides to anchor this division around is the freaking New Day. I couldn't believe when I listened to the announcers at Extreme Rules this past Sunday, they were talking about the division, and how long New Day have held the titles, and actually making the division sound like something important, and the belts actually mattered...but at the same time, you've got Kofi Kingston dancing around and interfering with his giant piece of cereal, and Xavier Woods and his zany over-exaggerated facial expressions when he's "selling" and we won't even mention that fucking trombone...and these are supposed to be the damn faces? GAH! I accept that these guys are talented, but does it have to be them that WWE builds this division around? Because they sell merchandise?

Hawk appeared in ECW during the very brief period that he and Animal were on the outs over Hawk quitting the WWF in 1992, burning the bridge with Vince and leaving Animal holding the bag. Then Hawk went to NJPW and formed the Hell Raisers with Sasaki and didn't even tell Animal he was doing it. (By this time, Animal was injured and collecting insurance so he couldn't have done any wrestling anyhow, but he was still pissed.) Plus, Hawk was apparently pretty heavy into the illicit substances by that time. They patched things up in 95 and ended up working in WCW for about six months. Paul "PN" News was a founding member of "Da Baldies" in ECW before he allegedly got caught stealing from the Locker Room, beaten up by New Jack, and fired.

You aren't kidding! That was legit amazing to me. It's like Shane didn't even try to fake it. When the best thing he could come up with to say about Triple H was "well, he makes my sister happy" or that he loved his nieces? Damn. That was the worst job of trying to cover up not liking somebody that I have ever seen. That wasn't even good enough to qualify as "thinly veiled" hostility. Mick Foley was pretty much being a total sycophant last night, and even HE pretty much said he didn't believe that Shane didn't have an issue with Trips. Damn. I had no idea that it was that bad, I assumed the heat was between Shane and Vince or Shane and Steph. After seeing that interview, I came away thinking Shane's main beef seems to be with Trips.

Rollins came out to a respectable if not overwhelming crowd reaction. It wasn't as loud or over the top as you might have expected for a guy who was gone as long as Rollins was, but then again, Rollins was not a fan favorite when he got injured. I guess some guys like The Undertaker and Chris Jericho are going to get a positive fan reaction when they return from an extended absence, regardless of their most recent alignment, based on long term fan loyalty. But maybe Rollins hasn't earned that level of respect yet. Either way, he got a good reaction from the crowd. He played up to it for a good while, but then basically announced that he didn't care about the fans...that he had burned all of their get well cards and letters, that the fans didn't get him where he was, and that the reason he injured his leg was because of the weight of carrying the entire company on his back. He went on to make the obvious statement that since he never actually lost the World Championship, it should be his, etc. Reigns came out, and a confrontation ensued. In my opinion, Reigns got a mixed to slightly positive reaction when he came out to confront Rollins. The announcers played up the history between the two, focusing on Rollins betraying Reigns and Ambrose and breaking up The Shield. To me, it was an obvious attempt to continue to get Roman Reigns over as the sympathetic figure. I assumed prior to last night that Rollins would return to a positive reaction and he would be viewed as the sympathetic figure and Reigns as the heel, since the fans already don't like him. I guess Vince either wants Reigns to be the face here, or is going to just let the story take it's course and the fans are going to cheer for whoever they want to. But Rollins made it very clear with his promo last night that he does not want the fans cheering him, which to me seemed to be an odd choice. As a star returning after a long injury you automatically get a certain measure of goodwill from the fans, although your mileage may vary. Rollins flushed his last night, at least in that arena. He may have to insult the fans in each individual arena for a few weeks before the nostalgia wears off, I'm not sure. But they definitely don't want him being cheered, that much seems obvious if nothing else.

So apparently Jim Ross suggests on his latest Ross Report that Moose and Michael Elgin would be good signings by WWE as potential opponents for Lesnar. Moose I can see, as I always figured he'd end up in NXT or WWE. That big dude Donovan Dijak as well. Michael Elgin? Good Lord, please...no. Just...no. Between his pug nose, horrible work, and ridiculous facial expressions, that's the absolute last thing I ever want to see, ever.

I remember seeing a match between he and Hogan for the WWF title which must have taken place right after Hogan won the belt from The Iron Sheik, some time in 1984? This was...34 years ago or so, but I still remember Shultz bled quite a bit. I remember it being a really fun brawl, but that may be rose colored glasses, since I was 14 at the time. I should check and see if it's available anywhere. I vividly remember it being one of the bloodier matches I'd seen up to that point, (which didn't involve Abdullah The Butcher or Bruiser Brody.) After he got fired from the WWF due to the Stossel smacking incident, he showed up in the Montreal territory, which had TV in my area. He actually came in as a face and feuded with Steve Strong (aka Steve DiSalvo) and I remember they had some okay (if somewhat sluggish) TV brawls. He was in Stampede too, but that was before I watched them on TV. The only other thing I know, is from my boss (at the time) talking to a guy who worked the TV tapings for Montreal's territory "International Wrestling." They were talking about what the wrestlers were really like backstage, and this guy told my boss that Shultz was a total nut, carried a gun, and that all the other wrestlers were legit terrified of him backstage. They were supposedly scared that if they even accidentally hurt Shultz in the ring, he'd go mental on them and kill them or something. Normally I'd write that off as gossip, except everything I've read about the guy seems to jibe with that story. Heath McCoy's book about Stampede and Dynamite Kid's book both mention that Shultz was wrapped a little tight, and the Stossel incident seems to bear that out. I remember hearing an urban legend that Shultz ended up becoming a bounty hunter after retiring from wrestling? I think the book on "Dr. D." is that he was a half decent brawler who was a bit of a kook, so he never stayed in one place long as a result. But I'm hardly an expert. I vividly remember the Hogan match from 1984, and his time in Montreal, but that's it as far as my personal experience.

I hate to contradict you Loss, but you are forgetting this classic quote from Vince Russo, explaining why people hate him: Clearly, there is a pro-South, anti-New York bias, Loss. What else could it be? I disagree with your sediments about regional bias.

You are underestimating the awesome power of The Secret, my friend.

Either more than a bit odd, or one giant leaping case of "hey everybody look at me."

June 6, 1999. Terry Funk vs. Sabu, in one of the scuzziest strip joints you're ever likely to see. In front of 300 people at most. The same summer he fought Abdullah The Butch at an Applebee's in Toronto, which I had to miss, sadly. But this was one of the happiest days of my life, because I got to see Terry Funk wrestle live, and shake his hand. (And I also got to flee in terror when Sabu flew into my row and would have landed on me had I not hauled ass.) I love Terry Funk because as somebody else said, he is everything right about Pro Wrestling. He was my #2 vote (behind Misawa) and that took a lot of soul searching, for a long time he was #1. I've never seen a Terry Funk show or match when I came away feeling bad about it, because he was always so much damn fun.

Consider the source and take it with a grain of salt...but Dynamite Kid talks about Lawler being in Japan briefly in his book. He claims that Lawler was complaining that none of the guys he fought in Japan would sell for him the same way they did when he had fought them in Memphis (I believe he used Killer Khan as an example.) Billington also claims that Jimmy Valiant was working too light and being goofy, so the Japanese talent wouldn't sell for him either.

All I know is they were responsible for not one, but two of the worst Pay Per View matches in history. First at Unforgiven 2001 against Taker and Kane, and then at Wrestle-1 in January 2003 against Muta and Goldberg. The second match was extra painful because it was so damn long. Like 18 minutes, and it seemed like an hour. I was watching that Wrestle-1 Main Event with a friend I've known for over 30 years, and we've watched a ton of wrestling in that time, and after we both agreed that may have been the worst match we'd ever seen...and that covers a lot of ground.

Just curious...why did you want to see Jumbo or Kobashi outside the Top 10?

It's always a good time for Kamala. Andre vs. Kamala, in a cage, from Toronto, complete with top rope action from Andre! This is why Kamala made my list (as #100.)

So...social skills are not your thing, huh?

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that. Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match. Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit. I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should. When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys. Now, I rate the four totally different. In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture. I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW. And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH. Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

I'm not advocating democracy. I'm fine with you and Will turning PWO into a brutal dictatorship. I, for one, would welcome our new overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a loyal, long time member here, I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.

Um...what? GWE equivalent of Vince taking wrestling from smoke-filled venues to what it is today. My thought process was: "How could anybody have ever seen even a handful of Japanese Main Events and not seen a match with Kobashi?" Unless Kobashi is still too stoic with not enough intensity and facial expressions. That is one of the main knocks against him.

Not going to happen. Yea number of posts is a silly metric but a list of people who were only active in the discussions threads would be an interesting list. I've been a member at this board since the get-go, pretty much. I visit this board every single day, some times multiple times a day...and I'm pretty sure I read practically every nomination thread, or at least most of them. But I work a 4 day week of 12 hour shifts in my job, and it's not a job where I can get online much, if at all. I just don't have the time to get into prolonged discussions online on a regular basis. Sure I get days off, but I always have so much crammed in that I have to do when I'm not at work. But there were people for this project who made my ballot, or who got ranked higher (or in rare cases lower) based solely on discussions I read here. I did not actively "participate" in these threads aside from listening to the discussion and checking out recommendations. Are we back to the idea that my ballot might not have counted for as much because I didn't have time to discuss each nominee at length? Because after that it will be straight into the idea that my ballot shouldn't count because I don't like Joshi, or Lucha is not my favorite style...and next thing you know, you've got four guys left voting. There are a couple of guys on my ballot that I was upset to see place so low, in a couple of cases they didn't even break the Top 100. I wasn't happy, but I got it. I knew being a fan of FMW/ECW and not Joshi or Memphis was going to put my ballot at odds with other ballots. I'd like to think if challenged, I could defend my ballot. And now I really want to learn more about some of these guys, like the World of Sport guys, or Casas for example. But the way some people taking this so seriously that they are bitching about so many results, or that some people don't deserve to be on the list, or saying they aren't going to continue to follow the list, or they want to see the ballots broken down into different categories based on different criteria...kind of sucks all the fun out of this project.

Um...what?

I agree, when I scrolled down and saw his name there, I was legit shocked. I had him as my #7, and I'm not a New Japan guy. That ranking was purely based on footage I sought out based on the recommendations from other fans. (Recommendations of the "AJPW isn't the be all and end all, New Japan had some good stuff too, pull your head out of your ass and watch this match" variety.)

I agree with you, although I had them fairly close to each other. Shawn was a better tag worker (Rockers), Heel (DX), and babyface (just using 2008 as an example). I don't know if it's a fair comparison or not, but I'd rate Shawn's post-comeback over what we got out of the short-lived Bret in WCW era. Don't get me wrong, I think Bret was great, but I ranked Shawn higher. I don't think Shawn Michaels was a better heel than Bret. Bret was pretty awesome at playing a multi-dimensional heel during the whole "Canada vs. The U.S." deal. Michaels in DX just his tired old "too cool for school" routine. And as a face? Michaels came across as incredibly disingenuous. There was a reason people cheered for Sid when Sid turned on him.

Well let me tell you my friend, if you like Japanese women in one-piece bathing suits screaming, are you in for a treat.

You are right, it is striking, and probably not quite right. I personally didn't help by not voting for any women. I decided early in the process that I couldn't because I'm just not familiar enough with the style. I have tried watching Joshi several times, and although I've been impressed by the work, I've always found watching women beating each other in that manner a bit unsettling. For that reason I've just never stuck with it. I wonder how many people feel the same way as me, that they recognised that some women 'should' be on their list just didn't feel they had enough knowledge of the genre to rate them fairly. I agree with this sentiment. I had no women on my ballot. I have tried to watch Joshi several times over the years, and I have never really cared for it, honestly. In my case, it's not that I find it unsettling that it's women beating on each other, but for whatever reason it just doesn't draw me in, or connect with me. I can watch it and recognize the skill of the participants, but I have just never had any desire to follow Joshi or put any effort into watching a significant amount of it. I couldn't put any of the big names from that style on my list when I really don't have the knowledge of it, or the desire to learn more. Some people feel that way about FMW and garbage wrestling, some people don't like shoot style or lucha. I just never much cared for Joshi. I did put a lot of thought and research into my list, I read all the nomination threads for people whom I had seen and sought out footage for some of those whom I had not, or for those who I had not decided where to place...but I still don't have any women on my list. Then again, I didn't vote for Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, or even Tully Blanchard, either. So it's not like any of the people on the list today made it from my ballot at the expense of a woman that I could have voted for instead. I had Finlay but lower, and Harley Race but much higher.