Timbo Slice

John Cena was not a "Main Eventer" until he rose up the card and became one, where he has stayed on top for the majority of his career. So when people think about John Cena, he tends to get classified as a "main eventer." Whereas somebody like a Brad Armstrong or a Tito Santana or what have you spent the majority of his time working around the middle of the card in his career, and is therefore thought of as a "mid carder." There were times where he was a main eventer and there were times where he curtain jerked, but mainly, you would see him as someone who was in or around the "mid card" level. The arguments against someone having a short run or maybe a scant shot at a main event slot every now and then does not classify someone as a main eventer. Ken Patera, as Dylan pointed out, spent very little time in the entirety of his career in the middle of the card, working more semi-final and main event matches than anything else. But he is remembered fondly as a mid-carder due to that being his most "high-profile" time in his career. That's just simple logic. That doesn't take into account any subset of how workers are classified. If you REALLY wanted to break it down into the different subsets as people are so quick to do, then you need a breakdown of things like card placement, number of matches, etc. I actually tried to do this with Dylan one time and we both came to the conclusion that such an amount of research would be something that would not only be time consuming, but would be incredibly hard to ascertain due to the fluid nature of how workers are defined. I don't necessarily think it's as problematic as John and the like believe, because the only thing needed is a cohesive understanding of roles and for people to stick with it. The problem instead is people trying to pinpoint the specifics to a point where it muddles the waters. Some things just need to be simple.

Brad Armstrong is a better definition of a midcarder than someone like Tito.

Jumbo and the stun gun? Or is that just inferred? The Florida Brothers are weak against guys that can create their own invisible doors.

I think that in all the big matches Tanahashi has had this year, he's clearly been the second best guy in the match. He's been someone who basically plays the part he's always played in big matches and lets the other guy shine, and then he finds a hole, fills it with his stuff and they head to a finish. I will say this, though: The role of an Ace in a promotion is to make the opponents he faces in main events look good, and Tanahashi does that more often than not. Both the Okada matches have been good and both the Suzuki matches have been good, but the work in the match shines more on Tanahashi's opponent due to this being a lot of what Tanahashi has done before in other big matches.

Funnily enough, considering where they were going with the Lesnar/Goldberg program, it was a GIVEN he won the belt that night. ESPECIALLY in the Latino-heavy Cow Palace crowd. Foley winning was more of a "FINALLY!" moment for me considering he had just taken the HIAC dive six months earlier.

The point it looks like he's making is that Eddy was someone who people saw as being a title contender I guess...well, maybe "naturally" isn't the best word. But I guess considering what Eddy had done up until his title win that he was seen as someone who could hang with the top guys. Which makes no sense because although Foley wasn't booked like it as times, I don't think anybody was really "surprised" that he won the title considering he had been amongst the top guys for about the same amount of time prior.

Earlier in the thread, the talking point about how Vader matches were pretty by the numbers and what not got me thinking about what other matches Vader could possibly have with people that weren't your typical monster vs. babyface with hot comebacks and it's tough to see him having any other type of match, regardless of style or promotion. Blackwell might have been a nuttier bumper, but Vader was a GREAT seller. He was a big fat dude, but was only about 6'3", meaning that taller guys (think Sting, Dustin, etc.) could stand toe-to-toe to him and look like they're legitimately making things difficult for someone who outweighs him by about 200 lbs. And once Vader went down, the crowd bought it as something immense that he was taken off his feet. Interestingly enough, nobody props up Cactus next to Vader for his best opponent, and while the Sting matches are truly great, his match with Jack at Havoc '93 might be one of the craziest brawls I've ever seen, and Vader selling all the nutty stuff that Jack tries to throw at him is something to watch. Blackwell was so unique that you had the ability to put him in different spots and let his versatility show, but with someone like Vader, you really couldn't put him in any other spot than "monster heel". That being said, he was so impressive as a heel that if he had ever turned face, I have little doubt that he would have been successful, but he was best working as a heel cutting people off with his power and being a bully. Blackwell works as an overweight wrestler with a more complete overall wrestling package, but Vader's overall package, while lacking the strengths that Blackwell has over him in versatility, bumping or what have you, is probably the best super heavyweight heel ever due to his presence and his ability to make a seemingly tired traditional wrestling matchup and make things interesting no matter who he faced. I'm glad Blackwell is being seen as a top flight wrestler, but Vader still has the advantage over him in the long haul. Keeping on the comparisons, I'm really surprised this one hasn't been brought up yet: Vader or Aja Kong?

The problem with Bock will always be a lack of footage compared to Flair, and along with Flair peaking as Bock was on his career decline (although his "decline" is also fucking incredible for a guy hitting his stride in his late 40s and early 50s in the AWA) at the same time that JCP was getting regular television with him as the focal point, Flair's greatness was more on display. But Nick fucking Bockwinkle is a GREAT wrestler. I can't wait to see the AWA stuff with him.

Mike Love vs. Mick Jagger would have sold out Wembley. Or the Coliseum. Maybe both.

Yeah, it was obviously a bad business decision and the booking was horrible, but let's not pretend that it's a company killing decision. It's just that now Brock is nothing more than another face in the crowd when before the Cena match, he at least had something going for him. It's just a waste of time and money to an extent.

Or, you know, Lesnar is making Vince think about it considering they had Cena go over Lesnar in his first match back, which probably is making Brock rethink the whole WWE thing in the first place. Lesnar's not dumb: He sees the writing on the wall with what a HHH feud would mean and now he's thinking that coming back at least as a special UFC attraction could be worth just as much money. Vince might be doing a jig, but he's not nearly making as much money doing that jig as he could have.

The Heyman as Brock talking piece point is such bullshit. Brock can build up his own matches. There's no reason why he shouldn't be talking for himself. It's not like he needs any help selling something with him being a part of it. The contract signing setup might have been bullshit, but Brock made the most out of it, I think. It was a good segment. Best on the show by far.

Of course Dave is going to stick to his guns. Any reporter would until he's told otherwise. They'll talk shit about the reporting but the fact is that Dave went with what he was told and didn't check with a second source. You know...like any one who ever took a journalism class could tell you. Although if this is an elaborate scheme to make Dave look bad, I don't think I could ever underestimate the pettiness of the WWE brass ever again.

Surprised it took over 2 pages for Takada to be brought up. I can't think of someone who was more de-motivated in so many big matches. Same with Mutoh. Although there might be a difference between de-motivated and lazy.

I'm still waiting for the promoter who threatens to the fine the wrestler $20 and the two hot dogs he will receive at the end of the night.

Villano III/Atlantis Mascara Contra Mascara is a great stand alone match that got my start in lucha, basically. I could see someone watching that and really enjoying it if they weren't big lucha fans.

Phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.

Pretty incredible stuff here.

I totally got my shit mixed up. I was referring to the Race win, not Flair. For whatever reason, I thought he beat Flair for the title. My bad.

Did the Tommy Rich NWA Title win over Flair at the Omni ever get released in full?

When Dylan was talking about Tazz and Lawler at SS 2000, I watched the match and then looked at the related links, which took me to Foley/Edge vs. Funk/Dreamer at One Night Stand 2006. One of the great ECW brawls of all time, maybe not so much in execution so much for the insanity. Foley doesn't do much in the match outside of letting Funk absolutely PASTE him with punches, slaps and a gnarly headbutt. Funk definitely stood out the most, especially with his Barely Legal callback (although the bump he ended up taking off the ladder was probably worse than a moonsault) and every single barbed wire spot made me cringe. The biggest and best was Funk channeling the Empty Arena Match with Lawler with a bloody face screaming "MY EYE! MY EYE! DAMN IT, MICK!" before being brought to the back. Of course, since it's Terry Funk being carried out mid-match, we all know what happens later on. All four guys knew their roles and played them to perfection, and as far as an environment goes, that might be one of the best matches in its setting I can remember. The Hammerstein was like a Hardcore Korauken Hall that night, letting ECW play to their violent, misogynistic ways for one more night.

Angle has never carried a match in his entire life. Period. He might have controlled a match because he was the heel, but he has never carried a match in his entire life. Chris Benoit had a great match with TYSON TOMKO. A-TRAIN had a good series with Benoit. Those two are both worse-than-average workers and Benoit did all he could to make those matches better than they had any right to be. In fact, go back and watch these three matches: Angle/Big Show-The 2002 Armageddon title switch, right before Angle/Benoit happened at RR. Eddie/Big Show-The match that is now starting to get a lot of praise. You had the Angle match having a lot of big and impressive spots, but then in the Eddie match, you have a match that wasn't really flashy, but told a better story. Oh, it had the spots, but Eddy was so great at working to his opponents strengths that he didn't have to be flashy. He made Show look like what he's supposed to be, a monster who didn't want to lose. He gets undue praise. He gets praise for doing a lot of things wrong in the ring. Doesn't sell, he doesn't use logic at all (if the ankle hold is the finisher, why use it a bajillion times in the context of a match?), and he can't hold a match together. How many times have you seen him take a big move, see his opponent go up top, and then, without selling the damage, simply run up and give him the suplex? "Does this make logic?"-Konann You proved the opposite of the point you're trying to prove with your first statement. When Angle is in there with a worker who can do things in the ring better than he can, in the selling, logic, and composition department, the match is better. It's never because of Angle. In nearly all the cases when it comes to Angle against a better worker, Angle is along for the ride. The "WWE Style" argument is a stupid one to make FOR Angle, let alone against Mysterio or Benoit. As far as Benoit and Rey go, in their first 7 years of professional wrestling, Angle has NEVER SNIFFED THEIR JOCKS in the "good match" department. But you've probably never seen matches outside of the Rey/Benoit DVDs that were non-US, huh? I'll tell you one thing: Sasuke/Benoit is probably not even in the top 50 matches ever, but it smokes the best Angle match ever. Benoit comes from the school where promos don't matter. He never had to cut a promo in Japan or in Mexico. He simply had to go out and wrestle. Granted, he's not the best promo man ever, but Angle isn't either. When he's cutting solo promos, I can't see them being good. When he's with a better promo guy (watch the Austin exchanges), he can be good. And Benoit's post-WM performances lately have been some of the best things I've seen recently. Angle should fuckin watch how Benoit sold his beatdowns and how he sold his injured shoulder. The problem with the analysis of that match is that simply because RVD didn't sell the shoulder, you're saying the match is a waste. That's how Benoit's offense was. Angle works towards the Ankle Lock with the Ankle Lock. Benoit used about every other move OUTSIDE of the Crippler Crossface to work to the Crippler Crossface. Just because a guy loses the match doesn't make the psychology worse than it actually was. So I guess that Toshiaki Kawada guy sucked, huh? On Flair: He resorted to cheating when his ACTUAL GAMEPLAN (read: Work the leg towards the Figure-Four) didn't work. It's a last resort. Just like Angle's grapevine of the leg. That's about the ONLY smart thing he's done with the Ankle Lock. Although, for that to actually be bought as legit, he should really go straight to it if the Angle Lock doesn't work. The Figure-Four and the Ankle Lock have won both men matches. That's why they use them. Using them over and over again accomplishes NOTHING. That's not character progression. Working the midsection over and then going to the Ankle Lock instead of the logical progression (The Angle Slam), is called REGRESSION. By the way, you're saying that Angle should never sell a single wrestling move because he won a gold medal with a broken neck. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ric Flair broke his back, yet for 30 years he sold pretty well. Austin broke his neck, but he still came back to sell pretty damn well in his matches. Your points about Angle being a good promo guy are once again disproven with your backing up of the claim. He's not a good solo promo guy. He always needs to be with somebody else, and when he's with somebody else, he's a good straight man. Benoit had a better run as champ than Angle did. Go back and tell me that Angle's matches as champ were anywhere as good as Benoit's matches were, when he got a good match out of Kane and led Randy Orton to his best match ever, let alone make the stale 3-way match that WWE just LOVES using seem good. And Benoit/Angle from RR 03, the Angle supporters #1 go-to match, is not that good. When making the "Benoit isn't as good as Angle because he doesn't cut a good promo" argument, realize that Benoit never got over because he was a good promo like Austin and Rocky did. He got over because he wrestled. Angle should have been like Benoit: An Olympic Champion who came in here to wrestle, but instead, he got sucked into the "entertainment" instead of the "wrestling." He forgot about the wrestling, which is a true shame, because if he actually went out and tried to wrestle like Benoit does, he would have been over and he'd be mentioned in the same breath as a Benoit or a Guerrero when it comes to GREATNESS. As far as Jericho goes, he'll put over big moves. Remember when he was feuding with Batista, and he got knocked out by his lariat? That wasn't even Batista's finisher. But because of how Jericho treated that move, he got the move over to the point that when Batista used it on other wrestlers, it was a bonafide finisher. Angle never sold a finisher correctly unless he lost the match.