Graham Crackers

Eddy's actually an interesting comparison. He had a lot of great matches, but his career also had a lot of dead spots, so I don't think he'd fare that well from a percentage standpoint. Even in the last year of his life, when he was as good as he ever was, he underperformed in quite a few big-match situations (vs. Rey at Wrestlemania, vs. Benoit at ONS). As for the other guys, I don't think their best matches were nearly as good as Bret's best. So it comes down to what you prioritize. Is it better to have more all-time great matches if it means fewer matches that are merely very good? I'd probably take the best matches of Rey, Eddy, Finlay, and Regal over Bret's best so there is a stylistic bias involved on my part as well. Bret's peak run in the 90s produced only a handful of matches I consider great, some good, but also a lot that feels mediocre to me. I love the best matches Rey was involved in and he also has lots of good to great matches from his WWE years on TV and has been a blast every time I saw him at a house show. I think a top 40 Rey matches sounds much more interesting to me than a top 40 Bret matches.

If you want to argue that Han's best was better than Bret's best, that's one thing. But you can't just sweep the fact that Han didn't work anything close to Bret's schedule under the rug. I think that just about any solid worker would look amazing working a handful of high-profile matches a year for less than a decade. Beyond that, I don't put much stock in percentages. Bret consistently brought it for big matches, so we can conclude that his lackluster performances are due to lack of effort rather than lack of ability. In my book, if you're great when you want to be, you're great. I understand that there being less footage of Han could hurt him in some people's eyes. I think that's a weak complaint though. Joost Swarte is one of my favorite cartoonists. His output is much smaller than other notable cartoonists who have been active as long as he has but the quality is so high that he is still one of my favorites. If working the McMahon death schedule reduces the average quality of your performances it's a shame but I'm not into "what if" scenarios. Of course I've seen other wrestlers work for McMahon and have great TV and house show performances. Mysterio, Finlay, Guerrero, and Regal strike me as guys who have worked in WWE and had great matches but also have consistently interesting performances at house shows and on TV. You could perhaps argue that Guerrero and Finlay didn't have runs in WWE as long or as busy as Bret's, and that's true, but they also wrestled in WCW where they did TV and houseshows with similar results.

I don't think this is as great as your classic violent mask matches but this is an incredible spectacle and so much fucking fun.

I agreed with Bret being a big match worker but the reason for that being a strike against him isn't that being a good TV worker is essential. It's about what percentage of a wrestler's matches are great. Yes, Volk Han didn't work TV matches in the American sense but he had much better big matches than Bret and when he appeared lower on the card or in more low key match ups he still brought great work or unique qualities that can make those matches stand out. RINGS may have been a promotion that had fewer shows and thus the wrestlers had fewer matches but whenever Volk Han wrestled he looked like an elite tier worker. Bringing this back to Bret, TV matches, and WWE, the problem is that Bret looked like a great worker in big matches and in (arguably) rare TV and house show appearances but because he was mediocre to good in lots of his TV or house show appearances he didn't look great as often as other workers and therefore isn't as good. I was under the impression that a popular talking point about Bret was that his top 10 may look as good as that of some other workers but his 40th best match won't be as good as another great wrestler's 40th best match. Seems accurate to me.

On some level this is pretty close to how I feel. The major differences are that Bret wasn't my absolute favorite (that was Mick Foley) and that in addition to "discovering" better workers I have also found styles of wrestling I prefer to the WWE style and so while the best Bret Hart matches are really good they are still a step down from the stuff that I love and want to watch over and over again. I also agree with Loss when he says Bret was a better big show worker than he was a week to week worker. I am working on a top 100 wrestlers of all time ballot for WKO and Bret will probably make the tail end of the list and that's one of the major reasons he won't be higher. That said, I do like a few Bret Hart matches from houseshows (particularly the Yokozuna cage matches). The Ric Flair match from Boston is good too. I'm not sure either match is a top 100 match from 1993 but I like them. My favorite Bret Hart match is the title match against 1-2-3 Kid. He's really great wasting Kid with uppercuts, cutting him off and basically working like an ace. Unfortunately there aren't many Bret Hart matches where he works like an ace taking on a lower ranked opponent. He either works even or works as an underdog.

I don't think any fan has to have one absolute favorite wrestler but with the amount of wrestling we all watch it's hard to avoid having wrestlers we are more invested in. I mean obviously there are wrestlers that we like because we like their act but wrestling is fiction and as in any form of fiction there are characters we become emotionally attached to. Misawa for example is one of my favorites and it's partly because of his matches but I'm also emotionally involved in his "story." Watching and rewatching moments like his flash pin on Jumbo, KO'ing Hansen, or his partnership with Kawada falling apart can be kind of cathartic. That's part of why I like watching older wrestling in the context of something like the DVDVR 80s projects. You get to follow all of the little stories so that something like Lawler beating Hennig for the AWA title can be a great match as well as an emotional release.

What 2 fat guys would you have above him? Are you including Vader? Yokozuna? Buddy Rose?? *ducks for cover* I don't see how anyone could call him fat when he weighs in at a trim 217 pounds.

What 2 fat guys would you have above him? Are you including Vader? Yokozuna? Yes on Vader and no to Yokozuna. The other possible top 3 fatty is Super Porky but I'm conflicted about how he ranks next to Blackwell because he is mostly being ranked for trios matches. Los Brazos might be my all time favorite wrestling team and I want to represent them somehow on a fatness based list.

1. Nick Bockwinkel - I just finished up the AWA set a few weeks ago and he was my favorite guy to watch on that set and someone I'm starting to think is a top 5 best American wrestler of all time. I don't feel 100% confident saying that yet. I think I might seek out some of his 70s matches soon. 2. Jerry Blackwell - The other guy who I loved to watch on that set. I'm watching his match against Butch Reed from St. Louis right now and it's awesome. Top 3 best fat guy wrestler of all time? 3. Yuki Ishikawa - One of my all time favorite wrestlers. I'm trying to fill in some blanks on my Battlarts knowledge at the moment. Just had a marathon of 2007-2008 Battlarts with a friend a few weeks ago. 4. Daniel Bryan - I've watched his most pimped matches of this last year and it's just so damn cool that this guy who was so nice to talk to in a diner after an ROH show way back when is now this star on TV who is really over with the audience. He's been involved in some great matches this last year and when I ordered TLC with some friends we were all freaking out while watching him trying to fight off the Shield by himself. 5. Fabulous Freebirds - I've been slowly watching the Texas set for a while now and I made a big dent in it on a bus ride from NYC to Toronto this past weekend. Obviously they're a great unit but I'm surprised at how little I like them as individuals compared to how much I like them together. I don't want to be negative though as they are fucking great together, at least in WCCW. The Freebirds vs Von Erichs matches haven't disappointed me yet and I really enjoyed them as kind of babyfaces against Kamala, Missing Link, and a Super Destroyer.

There was a topic on WKO awhile back where we ranked the 80s sets and I had Memphis first and NJPW second. My opinion on Memphis hasn't changed but my feelings about NJPW have. About a year ago a friend and I decided to have a viewing marathon of NJPW vs UWF matches and in doing so I realized just how much I love that angle and, in turn, classic NJPW. 80s NJPW may have it's share of lows but the mid range stuff is consistent and full of variety and the best matches are amongst the best ever. 1. NJPW 2. Memphis 3. Other Japan - I only have a couple of 1989 matches to watch but this set is full of great shoot style and lucha-ish stuff. 4. Mid South 5. AJPW & AWA - AJPW's top 40 wipes the floor with AWA's top 40 but this set was a lot of fun and I got me pretty pumped to watch wrestling again. The worst AWA matches were better than the worst AJPW matches and the top 10 compares pretty favorably to the other sets I've watched. I'm currently watching the Texas set. I've only watched the 82, 83, and 89 matches so far. The jury is still out but so far I think it's at a similar level to AJPW and AWA.

I can't say enough good things about Tenryu and all of the great Tenryu matches I return to time and time again as well as the great Tenryu matches that I can't wait to see for the first time. Despite that, I'm about to ramble about Jumbo and attempt to flesh out the reasons behind my own change of opinion on his work. I still like Jumbo but less so after watching the AJPW 80s set. I blame my change of opinion on the fact that Jumbo's matches from before 1990 were not as good as I hoped they would be. Not long after I started watching Japanese wrestling I had a phase where I thought Jumbo was the best ever. Of course my exposure to a lot of classic wrestling was limited. To put it in perspective the wrestling I was familiar with was WWF, WCW, ECW, ROH, some deathmatches, limited 2000s lucha, and the standard 1990s AJPW matches. The basis for the belief that Jumbo was the best was mainly based on Jumbo vs Misawa tags and the Tenryu matches. The only pre-1988 Jumbo I was familiar with was the Terry Funk match from 76 and the Kerry match from 84. I just kind of assumed that before 1990 he was having matches at a similar level as his Funk, Kerry, Tenryu, and Misawa matches all the time. After watching the DVDVR set with fresh eyes I see that was not the case. It's partly because while the theories and ideas that influenced the AJPW style were present and occasionally surfaced in the best matches, the style as a whole was not fully fleshed out prior to 1988. I won't profess an intimate familiarity with 70s AJPW but I've seen some matches and they strike me as standard NWA style matches. Jumbo vs Funk is particularly good but I think that has more to do with Funk being great and young Jumbo being athletic and motivated. After watching the 80s set I feel comfortable calling pre-1988 AJPW pretty uneven. The early 80s has great Terry Funk brawls but it also has listless NWA style matches featuring Brody, Race, etc. I still really like the Kerry vs Jumbo match from 84 and I think it's one of the better NWA style matches I've seen but it was far above the quality of other AJPW stuff at the time. 86 is great because the Choshu angle is great and lead to classic matches but Jumbo and Tenryu clearly weren't as comfortable working that style as Choshu. Only starting in 1988 does Jumbo begin to regularly use his role as ace to heat up his matches, which happens to coincide with the rhythm, pacing, and structure of AJPW becoming more consistent. At the same time I found Tenryu's contributions to their matches more compelling.

I think that rep is pretty unfortunate. This match is clipped on every dvd I have it on so I can't speak for this one but I think the 1992 Triple Crown match is solid and the 1993 Triple Crown match between them, and I may be alone in this, is my favorite AJPW match of 1993.

Gekiga (a word used for an avant garde Japanese comics movement influential during the 1950s through the 70s) pioneer Yoshihiro Tatsumi apparently drew some comics about Rikidozan early in his career. I've never actually seen them but he references them in his autobiography A Drifting Life.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xomlsz_ww...05-1996_animals Very very bizarre episode of Livewire with lots of proto-attitude era bullshit. Vince Russo shows up as Vic Venom and "shoots" on everyone including exposing Doc Hendrix as Michael Hayes. They further the JR shoot angle and accuse JR of helping WCW steal talent from WWF. Plus Paul Heyman calls in. All of this goes down with Kevin Dunn hanging around in the background. It's all really weird and kind of horrible.

I've been starting to get into the Midnight Rockers on the AWA set and that as well as all of the talk here lead me to look this one up online and it is as fantastic as hyped. I really liked how concise this was with some nice babyface offense and well executed FIP in almost ten minutes. It's not the best WWF tag but it's perhaps the next tier down.

In general http://luchawiki.org/ is a great resource so if you see a name you can look it up there. There are only two current "major promotions." CMLL (aka EMLL) is the oldest active wrestling promotion in the world. There is also AAA which started in 1992 and lead to a lot of CMLL talent jumping ship. There was also UWA (aka LLI) which closed down in 1995 but was the other major promotion in the 70s and 80s. It should be noted that these major promotions all lend their stars out to indies and local promoters. http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=CMLL http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=AAA http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=UWA El Santo is the obvious biggest name in lucha history. I have read some great Steve Sims articles on lucha history but I don't think we have enough information on who the biggest historical draws were after Santo. More lucha history in this thread including some discussion on who was/is a draw: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15975 Jerry, I think you're watching the 1990 yearbook, right? El Dandy was a big star then, is generally regarded as a great worker, and he has a great feud with Angel Azteca that year. The Rayo De Jalisco Jr vs Cien Caras mask vs mask match was also a record gate in Mexico City. Rayo and Cien Caras are huge charismatic stars and traditionally were not regarded as good workers. I don't think that's 100% fair because I love that match, I've actually grown to really like Cien Caras, and Rayo is definitely capable in big matches even if that isn't often.

I also think that pro wrestling because of it's "lowbrow" status doesn't have the same accessibility to critical consensus that something like film does. John mentioned the Godfather and obviously that's a film that has had volumes written about it. Just Google The Godfather and on the first page of results you will see the official site, a Wikipedia entry, and a Rotten Tomatoes page. Each of those pages has a considerable amount of information on the critical legacy of the film. That's in addition to The Godfather being played on TV all of the time and regularly being alluded to in other films since then. Most of the information I've found about someone like Choshu came from watching the actual footage, some things I've read on various message boards, and reading Loss's WON transcripts. When I search for Riki Choshu on Google I don't get this board or TOA. I get some youtube links and a few very dry Wikipedia type pages. Only the Puroresu Wiki page that Hisa's been working on and the Pro Wrestling Wikia page really give context that was not available on the actual Wikipedia page but despite that there is no "Reception" section like on the Godfather's Wiki entry. It tells me that he won some kayfabe titles as well as Best Booker and he made a PWI list. That doesn't really tell me that I should go and watch his classic matches. Even something like "Negro Casas was a big fan and does Choshu tribute spots" would tell me more about his in ring work.

I'm responding to this because I was the one that admitted that Choshu was a revelation for me on the DVDVR NJPW 80s set. When the NJPW set results had come in I had only been a member of this site for a few months and I was yet to discover TOA or see the Choshu's army thread on that board. Before joining this board I was never really exposed to WON HOF discussions and I knew very little about the Observer. My only knowledge of Choshu came from Ditch's site where I had watched his matches in AJPW. Obviously ditch is open minded enough to like plenty of NJPW wrestling (after all he does host plenty of it) but at the time I was so into his AJPW hype that NJPW heavies were of no interest to me so while the initial Choshu's army angle sounded intriguing it wasn't enough to make me dig deeper. I didn't see Choshu getting pimped on DVDVR, you certainbly didn't hear about it on the other US-centric boards I had been on, and in terms of the Observer I was only aware of the snowflakes Dave gave some junior matches, not his thoughts on Choshu. To top it all off, when people did talk about 80s NJPW the only things I remember hearing about were Dave's love of Tiger Mask and the Segunda Caida folks hyping the NJPW vs UWF feud. I may have been aware that Choshu forming his stable was historic but I wasn't aware it would hold up as great. I feel like I may have been rambling there but what I'm getting at is that I wasn't exposed to places where Choshu was being discussed and particularly not where he was being discussed as a great wrestler. I'm not sure whether that means I was in a bubble, you guys were in a bubble, or we're all living in bubbles.

One thing : who the fuck are "we" ? I warmed up to Choshu and Fujinami ten years ago when I began to watch shitloads of NJ TV. I guess my tastes are dated as far as Takada goes but are pretty well advanced as far as Fuji and Choshu go then. It seems to me like interest in those guys dried up at some point because it was barely there when I first got online. When I first started joining wrestling forums (2007ish) there was very little classic NJPW discussion going on. The primary attitude about older Japanese wrestling was that 90s AJPW was where it's at and NJPW only had good juniors. Early on I watched very little NJPW heavyweight stuff because guys like Ditch had some online but it wasn't perceived at being on the same level as AJPW heavyweights so I never bothered to watch it. I became curious about NJPW after the 2008 Battlarts resurgence got me interested in the roots of shoot style but prior to the DVDVR 80s set I hadn't really sat down and watched much of either wrestler. I recall a couple people pimping Fujinami and people talked about the initial Choshu angle but because no one had really pimped Choshu or Fujinami as an all time great worker I was very surprised when I came out of the DVDVR set with Choshu as one of my all time favorites.

My Japan MOTY. The next big thing vs veteran ace is a classic story and one that pops up throughout 1990 but this may be my favorite iteration. The striking exchanges in this are what really sets this apart. The striking is fast and the way Funaki blocks, bob, and weaves enhances the fight atmosphere. I may even prefer this to Maeda vs Takada from '88. EDIT: Found some comments I wrote about this match on WKO to expand on what I love about this match. I said: Neither man's performance here is as good as Fujiwara's top performances from 1990 but I thought they did a fantastic job working together. The stand up is incredible. Funaki's striking is fast and his boxing head movements look great. Maeda is also game for standing up and he deals out some nasty shots of his own. But what surprised me most was the mat work both of them brought to the table. The mat work wasn't intricate or anything but it combined the best aspects of the other great UWF matches from that year. It had the violence of the Fujiwara/Maeda match from February as both men were trading kicks, slaps, and dropping knees on the mat. Maeda was guilty of looking aimless on the mat in a number of his other matches this year but here he looked focused. I especially loved how you could see him scouting out what limbs Funaki had free when trying to escape a hold. Funaki brought some of his slick counters and escapes.

I don't see the case for Bigelow over Bossman. Where are these great Bigelow matches? His ECW run is alright. The Jerry Lawler feud is good and he shows some potential though I think that's more of a case of Lawler knowing how to work a match around a monster. I give him credit for what he did with LT and he has some fun WWF matches but only a couple are close to great. I'd take Gang in Mid South over any run Bigelow had and he may have been an equal WWF worker. Regardless the distance between OMG and Bigelow is a lot smaller than Bigelow and Bossman. Out of the three Bossman is the only one close to a top 100 and I'm not really sure how close.

Regardless of how you feel about it, the idea that striking during a title match is cheap is a popular idea in the fictional universe of lucha libre. Keep in mind that a punch is, whether it's enforced or not, an illegal maneuver. In the past, title matches were regulated to insure that they would be scientific matches, referees would have had the power to end a title match that turned into a brawl, and the commission may even fine wrestlers who turn a title match into a brawl. If you want to "fight" you don't do it for a title. You do it for honor. That's why the apuesta matches are brawls. Title matches rarely turn into brawls. I know you reviewed Casas vs Dandy. Remember how they traded chops on the outside before slipping back in the ring? They caught themselves getting heated and chose to go back to the mat, for honor. Think of it like the matwork in a Fujiwara match. Two opponents start in a standing position, they go to the mat, they counter a series of maneuvers but one wrestler grabs the ropes, escapes, or throws the opponent which leads to them going back to a standing position. The action restarts but the wrestlers will sell fatigue or damage from what already happened. Is that starting from scratch? The match may ebb and flow as different wrestlers have an advantage and I'm not sure why you aren't seeing that. Wrestlers who lose the first fall are often dominated by an opponent during the second fall before they make their comeback. This happens in the Casas vs Panther match from this month (not a title match but relevant to how control segments can work in lucha and it's probably still fresh in both of our minds). Also after the opening exchanges in the the first falls of both of their singles from the last year, Casas dominates much of that fall before being submitted by flash armars like in shoot style. In matches with short opening falls and long third falls the final fall usually sees the advantage swing in both directions.

Well, striking isn't really wrestling, it's just something that you're allowed to do in pro wrestling. Matwork is wrestling. A title match is supposed to be a purely "scientific" contest. One element to keep in mind is the idea that this is a "gentleman's contest" and these guys want to one up each other. How many times have you seen someone throw a chop, then puff out their chest expecting to be chopped back? Negro Navarro applying a hold and releasing it without his opponent escaping is his way of saying "That's all you've got?" He and Solar will do this from time to time but this phenomenon is not as common as some people make it sound. At the end of any chain wrestling sequence in lucha there is a clear winner. Usually it's the wrestler that manages to throw the opponent or the wrestler that gets a near submission. This sounds more like you're describing 70s NWA style matwork. Yes, 70s NWA style matwork might be tied together by limb selling but we know that most of those holds are just to wear down an opponent and will never end a match, which is something I don't often buy into in a post-MMA world but that's a personal thing. In a NWA style match wrestlers have to leave the mat to end a fall. The holds they trade in lucha could all potentially end a match. It's like how an armbar locked in properly in a real fight is often the end of the fight. That matwork isn't time killing, it's both wrestlers trying to end a fall. The end to a fall will usually be more spectacular so that may be where a"mistake" comes in. EDIT: On OJ's blog he has also alluded to the idea that ending a fall with a cradle is the easy way out and that getting a sub is harder work that is more rewarding. You might want to apply that logic to a fall ending on a mistake followed up by a cradle, especially if it's a rudo winning or someone further down a hierarchy. I also want to point out that cradles in lucha are super over and there are some moves like la Casita that are perceived as near impossible to escape. That's why Villano V can win with the Toque Universal even if the ref is slow to count.

So "ignore" isn't the right word. There are parts where that crowd is shitting on the match, chanting that it's boring but it doesn't discourage the wrestlers. I took it as them working even harder to prove the crowd wrong or win them over which is a story I can enjoy, especially given that the show is in Boston. I grew up in New York, surrounded by a sports rivalry between the two cities so I'm pretty amused by an audience in Boston being unable to appreciate great wrestling.

My vote goes for the Hardys vs MNM match that Dylan mentioned but I'll also mention Rock n Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies from Survivor Series 1993. I understand people being put off by the atmosphere but when I watched it with a friend awhile back we were both convinced it was at least the best WWF tag of the 90s. The Boston crowd shits all over these guys that they don't know so both teams ignore them and just hit their best spots with perfect execution and timing. I'm sure both teams, and especially the RnRs, have better tags elsewhere but for it's era this is really fun.