Al

Lots of good stuff on the Bunkhouse Stampede/Royal Rumble battles. Never knew why they bothered with Dino Bravo until I read about the Road Warriors doing the same thing.

Ah Outback Jack. Thanks to the wonders of 24/7, I bet I've seen the whole collection of his work. It's fun to hear announcers subtly bury wrestlers, in one case Monsoon and partner note Jack's complete inability to work on the ground.

Getting the Survivor Series and No Way Out matches make this an easy buy for me. Really wish they'd find a better Blondes match than Dos Hombres though. Does a masked Tom Zenk really deserve the love?

Cawthon's site confirms this. Also interesting to note they ran several "bunkhouse battle royals" in early 1987 as well, many seemingly headlined by Blackjack Mulligan.

Seriously, can anyone here engage in discussion without being a complete douchebag about it?

Yeah, I'm done.

But honestly, I'm tired of talking about this too. I don't know why I don't feel bad about everything in wrestling. Maybe because I never worshiped Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero like demi-gods in the first place. I'll pull one or two phrases from your apologist bingo card and let it be. The men in the wrestling business are responsible for their own decisions, and they are the ones who must make the changes needed. Fans can do little short of boycotting wrestling events and merchandise, though I doubt that will make much of a difference. I don't pretend that problems do not exist in the wrestling business. I choose not to let it effect my enjoyment.

Grow up. I'm not saying it's ok, or that it justifies everything or anything. That's the reality. But by all means, please tell us how you would fix everything.

I'll concede the point. Cutting across it though, what makes Ross any different from any wrestling promoter/figure, or that matter any person in charge in professional sports? Steroids is so inherent in athletics nowadays that it seems nearly impossible to cut it out. Even if promoters were 100% honest and scrupulous about it, you can't get rid of it.

You said states. Remember he died in Japan.

I think there's a couple of inherent problems from WWE's perspective. Not an exhaustive list of course. 1. WWE really has no interest in the plight of the individual wrestler. Right now the brand WWE outshines any individual wrestler in the world, including John Cena or the Rock. The company recently ran Smackdown in my area and without Cena, Orton, etc., sold out. They do not even need to name a match to draw at this point. It's dog-eat-dog as far as the talent is concerned. 2. There is not much of a place to practice promos outside of maybe house shows. I think it's apparent that WWE tightly scripts their television, they do not take many chances in their live shows. To me the biggest loss of the territories is the loss of live shows. 30 years ago you would get live shows in MSG, Meadowlands, the Spectrum, Scranton CYC, etc. once a month. Now WWE comes around twice a year at most and the only alternative is weak indy shows like Afa's WXW. (For the inevitable question, I'm not so familiar with inner-city Philadelphia that I'm comfortable seeking out Ring of Honor shows. It's a two-hour drive to the city itself.) Here's something I'd like to throw out there. I think the death of the territories would have occurred regardless of Vince McMahon. Once cable television developed, it was only a matter of time before a wrestling promotion ran nationwide. You'd almost certainly get consolidation at that point, as the national promotion draws more money, the big stars become attached to it and the fans desire to see the bigger stars rather than the small ones. Some of Vince's predatory practices hastened the process, but I think it was inevitable.

I'm saying, you really have to make a jump to get steroids out of that statement. Ross said in the same sentence, "get something that's a little more flattering for you." Did he mean OMG steroids then too! Or was he just referring to his outfit? Must have been steroids. It's honestly tiresome at times to hear people moralize about the wrestling industry when they've never been involved in it. When I refer to other sports, I'm referring specifically to eliminating steroid use. It's something no organization has done successfully.

Please. Tony Jones DID lack any kind of muscular definition in his upper body. You don't need to look cut, but you do need to look credible out there. I have Beyond the Mat. I've seen that clip. You're really making a jump in making that statement, and you're drawing the conclusion YOU want. And if that's the BEST piece of evidence you have on Jim Ross, that's not very strong. People really need to get off their moral high horse on the steroid/HGH issue. It's taken over professional sports. I want them gone, I think everyone does. But realistically, it's not happening. And if MLB, NFL, etc. can't stop it, what the hell is wrestling going to do?

Here's the seating chart from the local arena, where I just caught Smackdown yesterday. You can choose WWE and compare it to what they use for other events (such as hockey, concerts or ice shows). I think a third is being generous in any instance. In this case they cut off 5-6 sections of bad seats and they can't use the bleacher seating in the second level (that's not a big loss). I think we'd recognize that given WWE's setup, they need to cut off some seating. Obviously there is a limit. There is also a difference between say, second level at the end of the arena, and floor seats which go for much higher prices.

Not so much. Generally they take up space usually involves the stage area at arenas, and the unused seats are low-priced seats at the peripherals or the seating area. We're talking dozens of square feet of floor space.

It occurs to me that you can make a decent enough list, but if your audience isn't educated enough on Japan/lucha/etc., take it out of the criteria from the beginning. State outright that it's "Best of WWE: 1985-present" or something to that effect.

Ross also has not been part of the creative process since 1995. Come on, do you REALLY think they were trying to find a way to rip off WCW's idea when they came up with this? Honestly, all I think was that Ross remembered the phrase, felt it was catchy, and used it. I don't read much into it. "Raw roulette" though has been used three or four times now. I really doubt Vince has an immense hatred of WCW to the point where he will refuse any idea. He will like some ideas and dislike others.

Obviously. But it's worth remembering that your casual wrestling fan only generally sees what airs nationally on U.S. television. For fans of my generation, that means WWF, WCW, TNA and ECW, with some random stuff like Global thrown in. The only way to see Japanese or Mexican wrestling is to specifically seek it out. Not everyone really has the time, resources, or interest to do that. And hey, if they want to go ahead and do a great matches poll anyway, more power to them. It's awfully boring when only the elite can make fun lists.

Ross was WCW's lead broadcaster when they first used the concept. When did it come out that Vince hates 80s NWA? He gave Ric Flair the World title, he gave Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard the tag team titles in 1989. Ricky Steamboat worked for the promotion in a prominent role for four years. Is this anything with merit or just another talking point to bash Vince? The problem with Wargames is that it needs two rings. WWE has never done that. Honestly, I think it fouls up the rest of the card.

On a side note, that first Clash is airing on WWE 24/7 next month.

I've caught a few of Adonis/Murdoch's matches, it's quite odd to see that they were allowed to work these epic tag matches that would run 25 minutes. I wrote up a six-man a while back with them and Lou Albano against Slaughter and the Samoans that I really enjoyed. If I had to pick one tag match in between them and 1994, it would be the 20-man tag from Survivor Series '88, wall-to-wall action from a promotion that oddly did not run many odd gimmick matches (they stuck to the standards like cage matches). Dean Rasmussen wrote of his contempt of the WWF tag formula and while I don't outright hate it, it is true that you would be hard-pressed to find a truly great match in there. There are a few good matches, but it seems to blend in. Rockers/Brainbusters from both SNME and MSG I enjoyed throughly, but not so much that I would feel the need to shill them in a greatest match discussion.

How many wrestlers did each voter rank? If it's a top 20, the results are really skewed after that point in this sort of process.

Two months later, Clash of the Champions would debut on TBS opposite Wrestlemania IV on PPV.

One Crush Gals match aired on 24/7 via Prime Time Wrestling a few months ago. And according to Graham's site, both Dump/Bull matches from 1986 aired on Prime Time Wrestling in 1986 (from MSG and Boston Gardens).

Ok, I never saw it myself but I would certainly trust your judgment on the matter.