Loss

This is when it happened. WCW had been laying the groundwork for quite some time, but this is where the turnaround really started. Obviously, Hogan took it to a different level a few weeks later. But this was quite the angle, and I think everyone expected some type of angle to advance things on that show, but Bischoff taking that bump was a shocker. Things are getting crazy, what's going to happen now?

Just the finish. I love this angle. I think my favorite thing about it is that the outsider always went over in wrestling matches in a WWF setting, and the wrestlers actually went over, no matter the circumstances, in this one. It was also very well done as an angle and a good sync with the post-match stuff in the Benoit match, as the Horsemen were put over strong on this show.

So I remember how I used to love this match, and it's definitely not bad, but it's one I maybe wish I hadn't lobbied for to go on this set. It doesn't hold up as well I thought it did, even though Regal does some really neat stuff, as always. It is cool to see Regal given time to shine against a top guy.

The woman showing up in the men's room is hysterical and every time I watch this match, it has me in stitches and I have to pause the DVD to stop laughing. It's so hard to focus on anything else going on because that gets me every time and I end up laughing so hard I'm in tears, especially by Dusty's reaction. I wish this crowd for this show could be bottled up to be the audience for every wrestling show ever because they are so great. Anyway, I never cared much for this match, but it's another match with great booking that put Benoit over huge, and I love the post-match re-strengthening the Horsemen, which sets up a key moment later in the show. This is a reminder that the Benoit/Sullivan feud started off as a booker with good intentions trying to get over a talented wrestler and playing to his strengths. It didn't end that way, but that's how it started and initially, it worked.

They should also have Most Likely To Succeed, Most Fighting Spirit and Mr. and Mrs. Wrestling Observer. The winners can pose at a high school campus next to a tree.

There is so much to love about this match before even getting to the match itself. This is Rey's WCW debut, guys were laughing at him in the locker room having not ever seen him wrestle and he ended up blowing them away. The crowd is DEAD early on here and is really into the match by the end. Dusty Rhodes is comparing Malenko to Danny Hodge on commentary! I also love Dusty taking offense to Schiavone saying these are great wrestlers who can definitely compete in the cruiserweight division, and saying they can compete with anyone because they're that good. Tenay is actually announcing in a way where he contributes something useful to the match, explaining the background of both guys really well. The announcing for this whole match is really spectacular. I know the whole talking point about how Dean works with Rey, but I can't tell you how much I disagree with that thought process. This feels like an actual, honest-to-God wrestling match where both guys have real strategies. Dean wants to ground Rey and lucks into an arm injury early on and spends several minutes systematically destroying his arm. Rey finally comes back, gets him with his own strength, which is his aerial moves. It's truly mat wrestler vs high flyer. The primary goal seemed to be to convince the crowd of how good these guys are more than just to throw something out there and have them throw bombs for 20 minutes. The match works really well in that regard because Rey's selling is top notch, so Dean gains something from this too. When he runs the ropes, he is still holding his arm and selling it. Rey is really a world-class wrestler here. I think the slower pace in the middle helps because it gives some of the big highspots time to sink in and be memorable. There's no reason for Rey to show everything he can do in his debut match when the whole idea is to make people want to see him again so they can see what else he can do. This match accomplished that in spades. Not only does this match hold up as a great match, but it was also very well-booked (which is rare for a division that didn't have much thought put into the details and hierarchy over time) and it's a perfect match for the time in terms of doing what it set out to do, which was expose Rey to a WCW audience and put him over in losing by having Malenko, who has been pushed as an emotionless wrestling machine for the past few months, made so vulnerable that he's forced into a situation where he has to actually cheat to win a match. This match really illustrates the magic WCW was able to create for a very brief period of time.

They waste no time getting started, with Ozaki and Amano jumping their opponents mid-ring entrance, which isn't something I've seen that many times in Japan. Has the feeling of a grudge match that settles into a wrestling match. JWP is so much easier to watch than AJW because there's a much bigger emphasis on getting the match over as opposed to the wrestlers in it. It's reminiscent of the old Benoit/Guerrero "make you care about a match" versus "make you care about a wrestler" argument. In the context of a yearbook, especially in a promotion without a ton fo week-to-week stuff, the "make you care about a match" approach works better. There's also more emphasis on matwork, selling and grudges. Part of that may just be that Toyota is on top during AJW at this time and had the biggest influence on the style. But the way this is wrestled really has more in common with a typical All Japan tag match than a typical All Japan Women tag match. Another parallel to All Japan is how they call back to older styles with modern offense mixed in. Maybe you could argue that Reiko Amano doing the Moolah snapmares here is JWP's version of Kobashi doing the rolling cradle in a big match. Anyway, after the initial flurry when things calm down, this settles into a very matwork-heavy match, with lots of surfboards, Fujiwara armbars, sharpshooters, etc. It's not a perfect analogy because there are quite a few things out of sync, but chalk it up to style differences. Great match, super even, and one that feels like a bit of a lost classic in a year where no one really talks about Joshi at all.

Fire comes out and asks Lawler where his $5000 is. Lawler: "All I need to know is who to make it out to." Fire: "You can make it out to ... YOU CONMAN." Lawler: "I just need to know your legal name. Should I make it out to Kelly Wolf?" So Lawler's outsmarted Fire. He either gives him the $5000 and Fire has to leave, or Fire stays and he keeps his money. After some back and forth, Fire tells him to just keep his money. They finally end up setting up a match at the Mid South Coliseum where Lawler will have to pay him $5000 cash if Fire beats him. Match is no DQ. If Lawler wins, Fire has to unmask. Lawler: "You know this is the last show at Mid South Coliseum. We're moving to a bigger venue and no Lance Russell, I don't mean your nose." The week-to-week booking in Memphis is similar to the Monday Night Wars era in some ways, because the goal is to make each weekly show as marquee as possible, but it's different in that there's no PPV to sidetrack it, and their goal is to draw a gate, not a rating. Still, there are probably some aspects of running the same arena every week that could be applied to a modern setting.

Anyone know if there are dates available for any of these? From Best of WWA 1990 Vol. 1: Super Astro vs Leon Chino From Best of WWA 1990 Vol. 2: Yoshinari Asai, Gran Hamada & El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas, Blue Panther & Fuerza Guerrera From Best of WWA 1990 Vol. 4: El Hijo del Santo & Blue Demon Jr vs Mando & Eddy Guerrero El Hijo del Santo & Eddy Guerrero vs Perro Aguayo & Leon Chino From WWC Anniversario '90: Carlos Colon vs TNT From USWA Heat Vol. 7: Mason-Dixon Connection vs. Wild Side (USWA Heat Vol. 7) From Austria: Dave Finlay vs Owen Hart From Reslo: Fit Finlay vs Danny Boy Collins (Cage Match) Fit Finlay vs Kid McCoy (Cage Match) CWA Music Video

The shows I'm watching have had mostly extended squashes and competitive matches. One week had all Horsemen (minus Flair) matches. Arn had a really good match with Mike Jackson with Arn using the spine buster (not named that yet) as a flash finisher like the Diamond Cutter. The main event of the Windhams vs Midnights did disappoint me and in 87 I know it would of pissed me off. The match was like a 2000 Nitro main event. They go two minutes like it will last awhile then all of a sudden it breaks down. But I know if every wrestling show could be as good as the TBS show in 87 I would be happy. They changed to that format much later in the year. People aren't as down on spring/summer 1987. It's more post-Bash tour.

I'm not sure I fully buy that argument. Take JBL's push in 2004, for example. They revamped his character, gave him the hard push and he cut some great promos, but it took him ages to be accepted by the fans as a guy who deserved to be in the mix on top, and even then he wasn't accepted to the level that fresher guys like Batista, Randy Orton and John Cena were. Matt Hardy's got that cult following that WWE should have capitalised on years ago, but that time has passed and he's now a broken down shell of his former self, both physically and mentally. The same applies to Shane Helms, except he's a guy I don't think the fans would have ever accepted as a serious headliner. I won't disagree with Christian, he deserves his shot and is someone Vince McMahon has a real blind spot about, but by and large I think WWE is wise to choose guys who aren't typecast as career midcarders and ground down by many years on the WWE treadmill to give their new main event pushes too. I agree with this, I just think it would take less effort to get them over on top than it would to get someone completely new over on top. Orton, for example, was pushed hard from '03 on, but it was probably 2006 before the "Blandy Boreton" smarky-type backlash stopped and he was actually accepted by most fans. Part of Savage getting over as a strong heel was his psychotic act. He seemed scary because it seemed like he would do anything. But yes, I do sort of agree with that. He also had a top rope move at a time when most wrestlers in the company didn't.

People hated the 30 second squash + 90 second promo format of the Saturday night show. At least that's always been the talking point from Dave, that ratings dropped considerably when Dusty started that format. I'm curious if we look back how many shows actually follow that format. I'm sure it's there, but it may not be as like clockwork as it was made out to be at the time.

They were in overdrive with the WWF logo being everywhere, so I wonder if they think it would look terrible with all the blurring.

Do you think kid fans still ask each other who would win if Wrestler X and Wrestler Y ever faced each other?

The difference is that Misterio is a resourceful athlete. Misterio has been wrestling around the world for nearly two decades. Misterio has beaten guys much bigger than him cleanly, and has been competitive with pretty much everyone. That's his gimmick. That's how he's been pushed. I wouldn't want to face Rey in a fight, and I'm nearly a foot taller than him. He is credible. He's pushed as a talented athlete, and he has the skill to get heat against much bigger opponents, and fans buy his nearfalls. So credibility is not an issue for Rey at all. He's one of the most credible guys on the roster. Miz is a reality TV guy. It's not a size thing, it's a skill thing. It's that his athletic credentials aren't hyped at all as part of his whole presentation. I don't even think he needs real credentials, they can just make them up. That's not at all to say Miz is bad, but just that he hasn't really been pushed in a way to get over the idea that he's any good as a wrestler. I don't think Miz's TV background is a detriment if he's pushed as someone to be feared or respected. WWE has had enough time to reinvent him however they wanted to do so. They've played on his charisma more than they have tried to give him cred, which is fine for an upper midcard act. I just wish they'd given him some serious wins when they decided they wanted to go all the way. The easiest way to do this in the past would have been to have him juice in some big matches and somehow come out on top. He's definitely a guy who would benefit from the image of having his hand raised while bloody, because it would show that he can take a beating and still win in the end. My issue is not with Miz himself, it's with how he's being pushed as the top wrestler who isn't much of a wrestler. EDIT: And thanks.

I do mean in terms of making people care about what's going on. I also mean in terms of creating an atmosphere where match results matter and people can't wait to watch TV each week because they want to see what happens next. Just the level of overall enthusiasm about wrestling seems to be in the shitter now. You can see it everywhere, from the bad promos to the lack of genuine heat for most matches. We probably have different criteria for what better in-ring than 2000 means. Atmosphere in wrestling is very important to me, and I can't recall the last match I saw with a genuinely red hot crowd. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious what aspects you see as better, as I tend to respect your opinion and don't want to dismiss it without thought. If the matches are technically better than they were in 2000, that's fine and something I can potentially accept, as I really grew to hate staples of the times like stealing other guys' finishers, the standard Spanish announce table spot, overuse of low blows and run-ins, etc. I'm sure most matches now are more inherently logical and have better build, and we also get more clean finishes. But where are the heels that genuinely irk people and get under their skin? Where are the babyfaces that people are genuinely invested in and want to see win? I don't want to say it's completely gone, but it's diminished greatly. In 2000, you may have an opening match guy like The Godfather who was terrible, but the crowd seemed to be more involved in his matches than most matches that happen on your average TV show now.

Nash's points about how Sheamus is portrayed as a coward on TV and about Miz were spot on. It probably came from a douchey place in a way, but both of his points were correct.

Yes I am and I'll prove it by beating you?

I like Miz just fine, but I've read a little about this in different places and was curious the opinions here. Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem? I think it's possible to be a vulnerable champion and still be seen as someone who can mix it up. I also think the illusion of someone being tough can be created with good booking. But I haven't really seen them push that with Miz at all. It's 2010. Angles and stars don't drive business anymore, so I don't think it's an issue like it would have been even 10 years ago. But just in general, shouldn't it be somewhat important that the world champion is seen as a tough guy, not just an entertaining one? The whole element of wrestlers actually being tougher than the guy watching from home seems to be dead in many ways. Miz's anti-Daniel Bryan promos about how he wasn't charismatic enough to be a WWE superstar are the perfect example of that, when maybe in a wrestling context his promos should have been that he wasn't tough enough to defend himself in WWE.

The list was much larger if you include WCW wrestlers who were active in major promotions in 1990. Flair, Sting, Luger, Nash, the Steiners, Dustin Rhodes and Animal off the top of my head, and there are probably many others. The differences in the wrestling landscape between 2000 and now are enormous. There are far less places to work. There's no WCW to buy talent from that may have some national exposure already. WWE has a youth movement in place with no infrastructure to make it work, and the "push new guys" philosophy comes at the price of Hardy/Helms/Christian types who may not be the guys who can turn business around, but who would still be fresh faces on top that fans would accept because of familiarity. This is more about the state of wrestling and the lack of active veterans than it is specifically the state of WWE. Wrestling sucks now, and I think it's because most wrestlers just aren't very good at it. And if they have potential to be good with time, they're given so little freedom to learn from mistakes that they'll likely not be much better 3-5 years from now. Even in 2000, many of your upper midcarders were guys who had a few years of national exposure in WCW or had worked internationally in front of large crowds. It's also interesting that most of the guys who were gone from the WWF at this time 10 years ago were guys Vince got rid of because he felt they were washed up. That used to be his M.O. The old Vince would have cast aside Undertaker, Shawn and HHH a few years ago, feeling they were too old and had been around too long. Now, he seems lost at what to do without them around.

Yeah I thought about Show after posting this and forgot about Henry. So about 10 guys, and even less who have anything resembling a decent track record as headliners.

I'm trying to create a list of guys who were names during the wrestling boom that are still active wrestlers in WWE. (1) Undertaker (No way does he last much longer) (2) Kane (3) Rey Mysterio (4) Edge (5) HHH (He's been out forever, but I'm still counting him, even though he seems to be moving to a part-time position) (6) William Regal (7) Christian (8) Chavo Guerrero Has everyone else abandoned ship? Is there anyone I'm missing? How did we get to a point where almost everyone in WWE has been wrestling for less than 10 years? I know there are some guys who have been around for a long time, but I'm referring to guys that were at the very least midcarders on a national stage during the boom period. I guess you could really make the claim that either the Benoit murders or the Flair WM retirement was the end of an era of sorts, as pretty much all the most recognizable names in wrestling post-cable are gone. Crazy.

Also in Hogan's defense, he had more than wrestling on his schedule. He also had public appearances and such. I'm not sure how many he was doing at this point, but it's fair to factor that in to the discussion, whether he was wrestling or not. I also think the wrestling quality was a selling point for Crockett, so them having a bad show in a market was more likely to affect future business in that market than the WWF, which even then wasn't using the match quality as a selling point. I don't know that the marketing of their product in 1985-1986 was as important as it would become later, but the WWF was also far more organized in terms of announcing the full cards in advance, making less last-minute changes, doing better local promotion, etc. than Crockett was. You can say that in the end Vince's philosophy won out, which is a point I'll halfway begrudgingly accept, but I think more than that, his preparation and organization won out. Whether it meant a better show or not, you were far more likely to get what was advertised and leave the building happy when you attended an 80s WWF house show than when you attended a JCP show.

I'm not disputing this point. I know Crockett had their fair share of bad house shows. Dave goes on about it quite a bit, always talking about how the double shot days would wear guys out and result in subpar shows. But they also had some terrific house shows. The WWF had plenty of guys on their roster who could go. Do you attribute them having worse shows to the schedule or the style? Or both? It's not an issue of time allowed, as Steamboat had at least as much time given to have matches with guys like Savage that until 1987 didn't really hit the same level as the match at Starrcade '84 with Tully Blanchard, for example. Is the schedule the reason guys like this weren't as good in the WWF?

Tommy Fierro is a phone call away.