Loss

That's exactly what I was thinking. Bix makes a good point also. Even if whatever they were doing was inappropriate, I doubt it was so over the top that he can't even discuss it on his message board. "Flair was just cutting a promo on him to try to save his job" is a hilarious talking point. I really try to avoid talking about gay issues on message boards anymore. I used to bring it up, and it never turned out well, so I dropped the subject. That said, with the Kanyon suicide and this, it's sort of relevant at the moment, so that's the only reason I'm saying the next part of this post. But here's how it breaks down. If all kissing and public displays of affection offend you, that's fine and you're entitled to your opinion. If only same-sex public displays of affection offend you, then that's also fine and you're still entitled to your opinion, but you are also a bigot. Dave also mentioning families walking out of the taping is something he was sort of cryptic about. Was he just reporting as fact, or was he saying that based on that, they should drop the angle? Because Dave has spoken out against portraying black wrestlers as heels because of the perception the audience is racist in the past, so this would be no different, would it not?

I'm all for a good JR bashing, but his job was a thankless job, and I think there's better stuff to criticize him over.

Never liked a gimmick or never liked a wrestler?

HHH also in some ways always struck me as someone who you're embarrassed to watch with non-wrestling fans. A long-haired guy wearing denim and leather who looks like a neanderthal is the type of thing people use to make fun of wrestling. People within the wrestling bubble don't always get this, but guys who are that bloated and overly muscular generally turn people off.

No. We're not at that point. We are very, very far from that point. Progress has been made, but there is no way a 16-year old kid in rural Mississippi coming out isn't brave. Until saying "That's gay" is no longer socially acceptable for teens, until gays are allowed to marry each other, until they are allowed to take their dates to prom without creating national headlines, and until politicians stop demonizing gay people for political reasons, it will still be perceived as a dangerous environment for a gay kid to come forward and say "I'm gay". The public has voted in favor of a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage every single time it has ever been put on a ballot in any state. How is a teenage kid struggling with his sexuality supposed to take this as anything but "The world hates you"? Maybe it's not a brave act for a kid living in the most liberal sections of New York City, Washington D.C., San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Chicago, even though there are still acts of violence against gay people in those cities too, and coming out may require bravery in those cases as well. But it is a brave act for pretty much everyone else.

"Alternative lifestyle" is a pretty outdated phrase that I hate, but I'm not terribly offended. Agreed that it reads oddly.

I like doing main eventer versus midcarder as TV main event.

Of course, but I think something like that is a better use of a third hour than putting out another hour of matches and interviews all week. I should also mention that I really miss "Let us take you back to last week" in my wrestling.

That was a worked number, wasn't it?

How did I forget Punk? Punk should be WWE's top heel for years to come. Sadly, what he's missing is that while he's had many good ones, he still hasn't been put in a position to deliver a classic match on PPV that people remember. I think that's what is missing to put him over the top.

Nash did that once just to make the point that they could put anything they wanted in the first hour and it would have zero effect on the ratings. The ratings didn't really dip that much that week, but it was still stupid. That said, a more focused pre-show with pre-taped interviews getting over key angles and showing clips of things (kinda like a PPV pre-show) is not a bad idea, because I think it forces explanation and continuity. The Nitro thing was just random vignettes mixed in with video packages and no explanation of what was going on. But a pre-show is like a built in accountability for whoever is booking. That said, I'm not sure it's enough for TNA.

To me, Miz is the guy they should push to the top. Too many false starts have already happened for Morrison and MVP. Morrison has been in the company for over five years, so I would think most fans have given up on him. MVP I think is good high mid-carder. Matt Hardy is his own worst enemy because of his Internet addiction. He's also not a good promo. That said, there are things he does really well, and he's in a good spot. The ship has sailed on Christian, which is sad. They'll never do it, but I like the idea of Miz being a top heel and a manager of other top heels, kind of an Eddie Gilbert role.

They have had a few matches on RAW since '05, which I thought was ridiculous at first, and then I realized they will just pretend it never happened and everyone will forget it did anyway.

I don't know that there was a reason for him to wrestle on TV every week. Keep him special. Steve Austin, even during the height of the wrestling wars, didn't wrestle every week, nor did Flair, Hogan, Undertaker, Nash, or most of the other big names. The people who usually wrestled every week were your second tier big names, guys like Luger, Hall, Foley, and HHH. Goldberg couldn't do interviews, but he could have done staredowns, security pull-aparts, etc. that were well-paced and kept interest in his big PPV matches. If they didn't want attendance to drop because of fear of people catching on Goldberg probably wouldn't be wrestling on Nitro, dark matches could have fixed that. There definitely still would have been challenges, especially with Bischoff's tendency to think nothing is more important than a quarter hour, but I do think it could have been done. A match like Goldberg/Flair, with Flair staying babyface and them treating it as him going into training for the biggest match of his life and doing some really great interviews, would have done a huge number even during '99 when things were really crumbling. Flair/Hogan, with neither guy wrestling that much but Flair doing some amazing interviews every week on TV and that pretty much being the extent of the hype, did a huge number at SuperBrawl. WCW also had enough big name talent that they could have done PPVs without him headlining. Maybe it wouldn't have lasted as long as Hogan's 80s run, but the point does still stand that it could have gone much longer, and the time wasn't right to make a change until the audience started telling them they were sick of Goldberg, which wasn't happening yet.

I don't know that they should have even had it on their mind until two things happened: (1) Goldberg started to lose steam (2) Someone else was coming along that would be better in that role than him, or was catching on as a top heel in a big way If the streak would have continued 2-3 years, so be it. I also agree with tomk that ending the streak, pinning him, and taking the title off of him could have been broken up into three separate moments where you get max benefit out of all three. From 1984-1987, I don't think the WWF was asking themselves "How can we ever get the title off of Hogan without killing him?", they just ran it as long as they could, and when a good time and scenario came up for him to drop the title, they did it. I think the same should have happened with Goldberg.

Did Philly fans ever cheer the Rock and Rolls though?

Goldberg for most of his run was also second or third from the top after whatever Hogan and Nash were doing. He had the title, yes, but the title became less important when he had it than it was when Hogan had it. Of course, I also think Goldberg won the title too quickly. Goldberg/Hogan should have been a way bigger deal when it finally happened than it was.

Blaming it on the wrestler's contracts is really a copout too. Yes, that was part of it, but there was a lot of waste that could have been cut.

I actually have no objections to turning this folder into a dumping ground in special cases like this. So yay! This is the best!

One area where I always thought WCW should have tried much harder was entrance music. They just found random stock music. I don't think they needed to go the Jim Johnson route necessarily, but I'm sure that being under AOL/Time Warner, they could have secured rights to some actual commercially successful songs they could have used without too much trouble. They also didn't mic Dave Penzer, so he always sounded a million miles away, which was annoying.

The WON bio is pretty interesting. I can't tell if that is Dave editorializing on locker rooms or not, but people who go on about how much they hate gays typically don't accept them. I don't get that.

Edited the topic title for the sake of those who view this board from work.

What was the timeframe for this? I'm not sure. Dave mentioned in WOL back in 2000. It could only be Dusty, Flair, or Windham. I can't think of any other high-profile cage matches he has had.

Done.

Her and Craig Leathers were forever in WCW credits.